Hello, again. I’m back again from the Knots to get some more help with my remodel. You all have been extremely helpful with all of the issues I’ve had rebuilding and remodeling my old house.
To the POINT:
I have a family room and 1st floor bathroom that I wish to install hardwood or engineered hardwood in. I’ve gone to the flooring stores, and the big boxes, and there are sooooo many choices. The subfloor in both areas is 3/4″ wood subfloor. I have radiant baseboard heat (if that matters, I don’t believe it does). I’d very much like to go with an engineered floor for stability, and they seem to be alot easier to install as I am definately installing this myself. I build furniture and cabinets for a living, so I can definately handle a floor. I definately want a prefinished product ready to install out of the box. I’ve seen quite a few that are good candidates, as far as the color and look go.
- Are there advantages to glued vs. glueless engineered flooring, or does it not matter?
- Are there certain brands to definately stay away from, and is there a certain brand that you pro’s like to use because of quality and ease of installation?
- Which underlayment do you install under floating floors? Is there a serious benefit to using the highest grade sound absorption foam, or is the middle grade felt just as good? (I want them to not squeek!!)
- And last, any pointers those of you who do this all the time could give for getting started, proper layout, where to start in the room, etc…..are greatly appreciated.
I have raised a section of my house, replaced an entire subfloor, redone a kitchen, 3 bedrooms, and two bathrooms, including 2 stone showers, and replaced a leaky skylight and roof with the help that you have all given me here, and I appreciate it. I look forward to your responses again.
Cheers,
Jeff
Replies
Jeff,
I have real hardwood in my upstairs, laminated (alloc) in my basement (dog country), and prefinished hardwood in my ski place.
I did the laminate and prefinished myself. I looked at doing the prefinished with engineered wood, but I didn't really see the advantages in doing it. The cost savings wasn't significant, and the engineered flooring I looked at had the "plank" look (ie something 8" by a few feet), which I didn't like as much.
It is true that the engineered stuff has finer tolerances and you will end up with a less noticeable groove.
Eric
Thanks for replying. Cost savings for me are the least of my concerns. I want it to look great, and not cause issues down the road. I'm considering removing the radiant baseboard heat and switching to radiant in-floor heating in the larger family room.
I have found several different engineering flooring products that have a traditional width, either 2.5 inches or 3.25 inches, and also have a real wood surface. I have seen the laminant stuff that looks like vinyl or plastic, and I'm definately staying away from that stuff. Also, the stuff that snaps together has a serious appeal to it in terms of ease of installation. I just don't know how well that stuff holds up under normal use and traffic, including a dog.
The main reason for wanting pre-finished is that my wife has severe asthma issues, and wouldn't be able to handle the fumes from finishing in the house. Heck, when I paint, she moves out for a week.
Jeff
This fell off the screen, and I'm bumping it back into circulation. Come on, I need to hear what you have to say!!
Jeff,Your post suggest that you want a floating floor. Is that correct?You do know that engineered prefinished hardwood is available in a nail-down product, right? I mention it because the floating floors have a "floaty" feeling that screams "cheap!" when I walk on them, while a nailed floor feels and looks like traditional hardwood strip. You can rent a nailer for a day to do the install.Bill
Bill
Thanks. That's the kind of info I'm looking for. What is it about a floating floor that differs from one that is nailed down. I have seen both types of floors at the stores, but it is extremely difficult to know what it will look like or "feel" like when you're looking at a 3' X 3' square of mdf with the flooring glued to it as a sample. What makes the nailed down floor better, in your opinion. Can you feel the floating engineered floor move when you are walking on it. I definately want it quiet, and I haven't done a single thing to this house that has been cheap yet, and I'm not going to start now. I want it to look great, be as quiet as a hardwood floor can be (NO SQUEAKS), and be as easy to maintain as any other hardwood floor would be.
Do you have a brand preference, or even better yet, a brand or two that you would stay away from. I've seen some products that look really nice, and are finished well, and some that look like plastic.
Any further recommendations would be appreciated.
Jeff
I've used and am happy with the performance of Bruce engineered floors, 3/4" thick, nail down, prefinished with a square edge, not the chamfer (cheap looking) edge. The square edge was an option with an upcharge but it looks pretty good and has held up well; the dogs are outside so I can't say how the floor would do in that aspect.
I still prefer sanded & finished in place but this has served well.
Thanks, John, for the info. I was looking at Bruce flooring yesterday, and thought some of their stuff to be nice looking. I definately do not like the chamfered edge look either. It seems to be an automatic lint and dirt collector, as well as making the floor look poorly, in my opinion also.
Thanks,
Jeff
Most def a dirt collector. I hadn't thought of it 'til reading something here @ BT that the reason for the upcharge on the square edge is there is less of a variation in thickness on the square edge, giving a more uniform surface. The chamfer allows them to have looser tolerances on the thickness thereby allowing it to look like crap.
I have a chamfered edged oak floor in the kitchen that I'm paying my dog extra cookies and rawhides to scratch the living hell out of, because I'm ripping it out and using it for flooring under my workbench in my woodshop, it looks to horrible. However, that project is after this one....
Jeff
Jeff,The floating floor does not squeak per se, but it makes a tapping sound when I walk on it, and feels disconnected from the frame below (because it is.) Nailed floors feel solid and still can accomodate seasonal wood movement. Properly done, they are also squeak-free. With an engineered wood floor, that movement will be less than with traditional flooring.A floating floor may be quieter in some situations than a nailed floor because of the decoupling. What I don't like is the quality of the feel and sound as compared with nail-down flooring. With the floating, you walk on a 3/4" layer that rides on a thin foam cushion. The nail-down floor is two 3/4" layers (the flooring plus the subfloor) acting in concert, so it feels much stiffer and more solid. When struck, the resonant frequency is lower, so it "thunks" in a more manly way.I don't have any specific brand recommendations for you, but if you get engineered wood, get the stuff with the 1/4" solid wood wear layer that can be refinished several times just like 100% hardwood can. I also agree about detesting the beveled edges that trap dirt.Bill
For the bath you need real t&g, site finished floor, lest the water that will be deposited theron, goes between the joints, and makes it expand, and the whole thing pops off...(howbout that in one sentence?)
Bud
Are you saying that pre-finished floors cannot be installed in bathrooms? I wasn't aware of that.
Jeff
>>>>>Are you saying that pre-finished floors cannot be installed in bathrooms? I wasn't aware of that.Well, not being a "floor guy" (I think Frenchy is) I can only go by observations. The engineered and pre finished stuff has a contact joint between strips. That would make it less than water tight.
Even if they were real tight.Thus the water would be able to get to the wood and make it swell...
I would not do it with pre/engineered..JMHO..(that and $6 may get you a cuppa coffee)Bud
Jeff,
I've ignored you since you sound pretty much like you want an engineered floor for various reasons.
They are all fine and if that's your choice I really have nothing further to say..
My only issue with engineered flooring is it's not real. artificial anything is always artificial. Vinyl siding looks cheap even if it doesn't require painting.. plastic flowers, even the best ones just aren't the same..
However, If you are still considering real hardwood let me make a few statements to you that might change your mind..
First a real hardwood floor can be done easily by a mildly competent do-it-yourselfer.. everything from install to finishing..
It's a lot easier than than you believe..a typical living room can be done in a weekend. from start to finish..
Second finishing isn't hard or smelly or takes forever to do. It's easy and fast! Plus in most respects it's better than any finish anyone can put on anything!
Bold statement but it's true!
First bring the wood home and let it get used to living where it's gonna live.. a couple of weeks is good, more is better, and too long you're just being lazy..
(see, it helps to have a sense of humor)
Next you go to a rental store, rent a floor nailer (pneumatic and a compressor (if you don't own one) plus a floor sander. This is real important, do not rent one of those drum type sanders, you want one of those square pad DA style sanders! I think about an 18" x 24" you'll want a couple of the coarsest grit sand paper squares and one each of the next available grit right up to 120 grit (and I'd bring home a buffing square as well)
Since you are out shopping stop by one of the big box stores and pick up a gallon of shellac and three gallons of denatured alcohol..
I know but trust me..
Banging flooring in place isn't a terribly complex job.. You can do it. Just put down a layer of rosin paper and pick the wall opposite the entrance and start from there. There are plenty of books that will show you how to do it, ask and I'll guide you though the steps.
Once it's laid, sand it all flat.. very easy to do with those new floor sanders and not really all that dusty. Get your wife involved so she understands the need for the dust and instead of complaining she can be vacuming. Start with the coarsest grit. get everything flat I wear stocking feet so I can feel bumps and uneveness and then I focus on those spots untill they are flat.
Once you've gotten it flat switch to the next coarse grit and sand off all the scratches the coarse grit left, then switch paper and sand off all those scratches etc.. repeat right up 'til you get to the buffing pad.
Don't skip a step or short shift anything.. deep scratches can't be removed by fine grit.If IN doubt grab a slightly damp (barely moist) towel and wipe all the dust off.get on your hands and knees and put your face right down at the wood. Only move on once all the coarser scratches are gone..
A typical living room will take about a half a day for an experianced guy to sand. allow yourself more than that..
Once you're done with the buffing pad vacum up all the dust.. then take your slightly damp towel and wipe up whatever dust remains.. Now take a tack rag and dust off the whole floor.
OK it's shellac time.. What ya got to apply it? You can use a Lambswool applicator on a long handle if you want to look professional. (it's faster, easier on your back, and works really nice) If you have a new big ol house painter brush that works fine too as long as it's fine. heck if you're low on money you can use a big old rag or mop or your stocking feet (if you don't mind getting your feet very cold)!
Shellac when dry will wash out of your socks
so you don't even waste a pair of socks!
mix two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of shellac.. (or stir it up and pour 1/3 of the shellac into a bucket and add a gallon of denatured alcohol
That's your first coat. now it's extremely important that you understand something..
Speed is everything with shellac. tidyness counts not at all.. You are going to do the Indy 500 of painting here.. Do not ever stop and go back to touch up something! If you miss, don't worry the next layer melts right into the first and does an invisable repair.
If you tend to be too neat, too slow and careful get your kids to do it. Do a Tom Sawyer on them.. Flood it on and don't worry about streaks, runs, drips, or anything.. just fast!
This is really fun so like I said get your 5 year old to do it if you can't..
Now 15 minutes after the first coat goes down grab one of those 3M sponges 220 grit and get on your hands and knees.. Put you hand and feel the surface.. that roughness is called nubs.. you want to sand those off. Good news they come off real fast and easy.. About a second to a second and a half per square foot should do it.. real lick and a promise stuff. Don't try to sand things perfect, the shellac does that itself.
Now flood on another coat. Another 1/3 of the shellac and a gallon of denatured alcohol. Again fast is important! Slow and careful is a mistake.. Big mistake! You'll get a lousy finish if you try that.. Fast and flood it on.. This time it will take a half hour to dry. bend down and feel see if any nubs remain, if they do just sand those off. the old sponge is fine.. big sweeping sanding motions lick and promise stuff.
Now take the last of the shellac and another gallon of denatured alcohol and flood on another coat..
You should have that dry in about an hour. look at it carefully. Are you impressed? would you like it deeper? You can add as many coats as you like, just each coat will take longer to dry. Thin is actaully better as long as you're happy.. Thin ages faster and will be harder sooner..
Now a couple of points. Shellac is harder than most finishes, test it yourself, you'll see it's much harder than poly's and etc.. Shellac is ancient it's been around 5000 years.. up untill the 1920s most floor were finished with shellac.
It's extremely durable.. while new it's a bit tender, but as it ages it gets tougher harder and better lookin
Any scratches can be removed by wiping the scratch with a rag and some denatured alcohol.. instant scratch-be-gone.
Water spilt on it does nothing.. wipe it up and no damage done.. Water left on it will eventually turn it white.. just take some denatured alcohol and wipe off what turned white,, if you get down to bare wood just reapply shellac just as you did before. New shellac melts into ol shellac and makes invisable repairs..
same with alcohol.. spill a little and if you wipe it up quickly no harm done. if left you will have to repair it but since repairs don't require sanding or any hassle it's very easy to do so it gets done..
That's what great about shellac,
you can easily fix anything! easily quickly and inexpensively..
let's see any of those other finishes say that!
Just so you know my 150 pound newfoundland who refusaes to clip his toe nails ahsn't damaged the shellac finish yet! Oh, you can see gouges in the wood where his toenails dented the wood but the shellac is still fine and the gouges don't look bad because of it.
Nextl ittle tidbit. Shellac is good for you! Drug makers all coat their pills with shellac, pills make you better, so shellac is good for you!
And candy companies often coat candy with shellac if they don't want it to melt.. See you already eat shellac and didn't know it..