I am planning a great kitchen and want to have wood countertops. So much prettier than granite. BUT: am I foolish? What would the maintence be? Then, do you think that I should use butcher block or regular? I would appreciate any help. Some of the countertop would be adjacent to the sink. What kind of problems would that add? Thanks so much SuzyQ
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The FHB Podcast crew offers advice on re-insulating the south wall of an old Pittsburgh mill home.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Try this thread for some varying opinions on wood kitchen counters.
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=37367.1
this is great info. thank you so much. sounds like i should not use wood countertops. but i really want to!! and i am willing to do the maintenance, since i love working with wood. i am not sure what one calls a countertop that is wood but not butcherblock. just strips of wood. like what a floor would look like. i don't imagine that would hold up any better, especially with the problem with end grain. that would still be an issue. thanks again.
I made my countertop out of plywood that I was able to match the grain on to make it 14" long. I applied a 1x2 yp across the front and a 1x4 yp across the back for a backsplash. It has been in service for 10 years with no problems, including around the sink area. I treated the wood with repeated applications of olive oil. It has held up well.
If money was no problem, I would use better wood, and have a millwork form the backsplash to resemble a form that manufactured countertops have.
if money were no problem (do i really mean that??) what wood would you recommend? my cabinets are going to be a natural oak, keeping things on the light side. the teak pictures are magnificent, make my mouth drool, almost, but is there any wood that you would recommend, and are there woods that would look lighter than teak, when oiled. i have no idea of what this is going to cost, as yet. thanks
check into "avoirdire" looks like white mahahogony, with striking grain..not cheap, and not overly high..my last price was about 4.50 a sq.ft (bd. ft @ 12x12x1'')
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
i just looked up avoirdire on google and cannot find anything. can you give me some hint on how i can see what it looks like. i thought everything was on goodle. thanks
sorry I mispelled it
here is a page to look at in it's life as a guitar
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/woodpages/avodire.html
absolutly beautiful wood. I worked there and made instruments from it..and other things as well
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I am not really expert in this area. I would think Oak. maybe bleach it for a lighter appearance.
Julia Child did a special on kitchen layout once on PBS. I think maybe it was in conjunction with This Old House. In that show she really stuck to her guns about a wood countertop treated with olive oil. Use good olive oil. don't use the cheapest stuff. Been there regretted that.
I made a kitchen Island in a rent house we lived in. I put a scrap piece of plywood on it and applied olive oil. Several moves down the road that top became a stepping stone to a trailer we lived in while building this home. I was amazed that the olive oil soaked plywood never came apart.
If money were no problem, ebony would look dynamite with oak (especially a sort of honey colored or light oak). Ebony is awfully dense and probably hard to cut and smooth. (I've never worked with it, as money is a problem with me). Maybe use it as trim around top of sink and counter edge?
thanks. i did not mean to imply that money was NOT a problem !!! just trying to learn what my options are. ebony would be too dark for me, anyway. i am thinking/dreaming of a light wood. i know that wood darkens with a finish/oil/shellac/or whatever sealant. do you have any idea of what wood would be on the light sid? thanks
Probably the other people who posted messages could answer about light woods. They seem to be more experienced with wood than I am. Oak is light. Many woods are light before they are stained and messed with. One of my favorites is poplar--most people paint it, but I like its green, yellow and sometimes streaks of purple; again, not really a light colored wood though. Someone mentioned maple. That could be light and it can be dense and hard. Birch is one of my faves too--lots of "chatoyance" (I had to look it up the first time I saw the word--it's that shimmery depth, like looking in water that changes with the light). Guy I work with is a real woodworker and we were putting in oak cabinets; he used birch for the insides that wouldn't matter and I liked them better than the oak. Birch plywood would be stable, light, not too expensive. I've heard a lot about "baltic birch"--supposedly very good plywood to work with--no voids. Sounds like it will be nice. I too like working with just wood and understand that while it may not be as durable as other materials, its beauty makes it worth using.
"chatoyance"
french..means cat's eye..{G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
thanks. i happen to like birch a lot, too. i have made about 6 bookcases in my home with birch plywood. but don't i need 'real' wood, not plywood.? thanks again.
I think plywood would be fine--maybe better than "real" wood because plywood would be more stable (cross grain laminations=less movement). Also easier to build a 24" width (cut a sheet of plywood instead of jointing and gluing up several boards of real wood (and then worrying about the glue letting go, the boards cupping, the width changing with humidity and having to allow for seasonal movement by using special fasteners).
"borgward" (message # 44512.14) used plywood and it seemed to work fine for him. You may need to use real wood on the edges, but maybe not--good quality cabinet grade plywood should not have voids that would mess up the eges. The various plies could look real nice with a nicely profiled edge (routed).
Sorry Dan..yer new..I know..this is FINE HOME BUILDING...routing BB Ply..with ply exposed?
Please..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
hehehehe..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Gaboon Ebony is sold by the POUND..and lemme tell ya a CT of Ebony is SO FAR OUT OF REASON..it's laughable..
Macasser Ebony veneer could be done..but again..It would outcost alot of homes.
for trim? sure in small doses..it's real hard to get any Gaboon Eb. in any size larger than 5'' wide by 6' long..the logs take a few hunderd yrs to get that big. An some poor schmuck has to load it on an elephant to harvest it..in 100+ degree heat, with out a chainsaw..has to be an ele. to tote it too..logs will sink.
Not bustin yer stones..just letting ya know.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
okay, you have convinced me that i will not do the kitchen in ebony. would not want to tax those elephants too much. : -)
>> Gaboon Ebony is sold by the POUND ...
And it's heavy, too, so a pound of it ain't as much wood as a pound of oak or maple would be.
Glad you told me. I knew it was expensive, but not how expensive, plus I guess I did know it's not "sustainable"--not being managed, whatever. I usually jsut dye wood the color I want.
Don't be afraid of wood counters. Oil finish is the ticket because you can redo them very easily. I like Waterlox, it's got tung oil, the danish finishes don't. Tung oil seems to last longer.
We used yellow pine, soft, but characterizes nicely. Water based aniline dye is on one of them. These were finished with 5 coats of Varathane, wish I'd used Waterlox like I do for paying customers, it's going to be a bitch to strip!
Sorry 'bout the mess, inlaws are in town, and it's dinner time<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
perfect. that is just the look that i want. and love your floors, too. is that oak?
"sorry about the mess"?
I would be ashamed to post a pic of ours right now, and we don't have any company or kids. ;)
well, you did notice no mess stops me LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
How about a combination of materials in different places. It would work well especially if you are planning an unfitted look for your cabinets. Say, wood for a peninsula or an island, but something water resistant around the sink and perhaps stone beside the stove. Many people automatically reject laminate, but some of the high end designs are quite nice.
unfortunately i have the great idea of having the sink in the island, and want to put wood as the countertop for the island. it will be a 7 or 8 foot island with the sink somewhere in there. hmmmm.
Some woods certainly work better than others as countertops.
Some handle the wear and tear of cleanup as well as the wipedowns and puddles of water.
Some handle them on their own, some handle them with the aid of a protective coating of some sort. A protective coating can either be a wipe-on penetrating finish (like a non-curing oil), or a film-finish (like polyurethane). Obviously, some of these protective coatings are more durable than others, and often their durability is directly related to the use of the countertop (simple food prep vs chopping).
First, I'm biased against film finishes, for if, and when, they fail, they often need to be stripped in their entirety and reapplied. Some are indeed very good, but still, I prefer simplicity.
About the best wood out there for countertops, in my opinion, is teak. Given a simple mineral oil rubdown, they maintain their color nicely and can handle water abuse, as well as any abuse that can come from a kitchen environment, magnificently.
When the color of the countertop lightens from multiple scrubdowns, renew it with a simple wipe on application of mineral oil or some other oil, like a burcher block oil.
I've had teak in my own kitchen for some time now. The initial two or three weeks was somewhat worrisome, for as the wood is "broken in", the initial application of mineral oil seemed to spot the second a water droplet hit it. Essentially, the water emulsifies the oil, creating the spot. Either let the spot alone, or apply a quick wipe of oil, and the spotting would disappear. Still, for the first few weeks I was wondering...
After the first few weeks, water can sit on the countertop overnight and no spotting occurs. Even after a renewal of the oil. It just seemed that the first couple weeks, when the wood and oil were new was when things were in flux.
Maple can be a good wood for countertops. There are a few others as well.
The attached pics show a kitchen isand endcap that is teak end-grain butcher block. 5" thick. It's been used daily and wears like iron.
The other pic shows the 2" thick teak countertops. I have about 18 linear feet on one wall, a 12' run where the sink is, then a slightly higher 6' run over the dishwasher. The countertop height is split, as my wife is 5'1", so we lowered part of it for her. Raised it up the other part to almost standard height so we could clear the dishwasher. Four planks edge-joined to make a 30" deep countertop. My base cabinets are 28" deep with all pullouts on slides, so there's a huge amount of storage underneath with no black holes. There's an undermount sink, the end-grain of the teak shows zero effect of being repeatedly doused with water.
I oil them maybe every 2-3 months.
Fastened properly, there's been no warping, no wierdness. They've held up beautifully.
hi, mongo. thanks for taking the time to write. the teak is breathtaking. i think that i would like to use the non-butcherblock, just because it is a more even colored. i want to restful look to the kitchen, and the butcher block is a bit "busy" thanks for sending the pictures as well. suzieq
Try this site for pics...
http://www.brookswood.com/wood_countertops.htm
Those are gorgeous!
I'm glad someone started this thread (and posted the link to the previous one). I want to have a butcher-block counter top for my island, with a prep sink, and worried about the water near the wood. I'm not hugely picky about it looking worn after awhile--my kitchen is my shop and not a showplace--but I do care about durability, and want to install it properly.
Thanks to everyone for the informative posts.
Leigh
Mongo
Thats a great looking kitchen, love the butcher block!
Doug
Wood ct's are great, esp if they are to be used alot. Re-oil periodically according to degree of use. Mineral oil is good. The "butcher block oil" sold at gourmet shops is mineral oil in a fancier bottle. Apply before bedtime and it will be dry by morning. First application requires 3 coats.
End grain block is the best. Virtually indestructable as you are chopping into the grain ends which then self heal. It will take 2-3 lifetimes to wear that type out. They are usually much thicker though so height must he concidered.
As for teak... hmmmm. I know teak dust is very toxic. Don't know if I want to be chopping on that.
I love wood tops. When shopping for one try to get each strip that makes up the ct to be full length. They multi-length strips are fingerjointed and are not as pretty.
When's the dinner party?
F.
hi, frankie, thanks for your reply. i don't think that toxic dust will be a problem for me, because i will continue to use cutting boards. i have used them for the past 35 years, so i don't mnd. and i love working with wood, so oiling it periodically will be a treat, not a chore. someone wrote about a problem with a wood countertop where it meets the sink. and i am going to have, what is the word?, undermounted sink. do you know anything about this. thanks again.
PS, dinner will be in 2005. how hungry are you?? can you make it till then ???? : -)
Undermount sink is the only way to go. The exposed end grain along two edges will soak up lots of min. oil. At first application keep oiling til it doesn't absorb any more - maybe 6-8 coats, maybe more depending on wood species.
Keep in mind that soap breaksdown oil. That's the nature of the beast, so maintaining the oil at the sink is best kept up with more regularly.
CT will overhang the sink (no more than 1/4") so be sure to seal/ oil the enderside of the lip.
One of the things I like best about wood CTs is that it can be used as a cutting surface - it doesn't dull the knives any more than a wood cutting board. Then it developes a patina and wear areas which I call character. But that's what I like. You may feel differently. Cool.
F.
thanks to all of you for some wonderful information. you guys are great!!!
>> Don't know if I want to be chopping on that.
You don't want to be chopping on your countertops no matter what they're made of. If it's not hard on the countertop, then it's hard on the knives. That's what cutting boards and butcher blocks are for.
Edited 6/18/2004 2:55 pm ET by Uncle Dunc
Frankie,
It's a countertop! How much wood dust do you generate when prepping food in the kitchen?
I suppose if you use a chain saw to carve the Thanksgiving turkey...<g>
Here's one I made from Catalpa. Not the best choice, unless you are really clean. The reasons I chose it was because of it's stability, water resistance, and it's resemblence to Chestnut.
It's oil stained and urethaned, in an adult environment. I wouldn't put this up against kids.
Catalpa..now there is an under used wood..great stuff. I made ele. guitar bodies from it, as well as table tops for a bistro..I love it. Light weight works well..and sounds good too.
I wish more sawyers would consider it, it grows like a weed. And drys well.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Yeah to what you said, but I had no idea about guitar bodies. The stuff smells like burning rubber when you saw it.
did ya also know that the Japanese had used it for centuries as dowry chests? It is not easily burnt..so, it would survive a structure fire.
And because of that, they ( the Lumber brokers) would peruse our forests in helo's..looking for it. It got quite pricey for a time there in the early 90's..
"Paulowina" or " princess tree" ( named for a russian czar's daughter) is so similar, that a lot of it got sold mistakenly..no one ever knew..I myself have mixed them, and had no problems. The characteristics are almost the same..
"oohhh, that smell, can't ya smell that smell" yup, nasty.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I knew a boating enthusiast who had teak countertops and cabinets in his bathroom and kitchen. Looked nice, but might be expensive, though maybe not as expensive (or difficult to work with) as granite. I have used two-part epoxy over wood (table top) to protect it and it worked well--does have a "plastic" look to it, as you can see the thickness of the epoxy. If you wanted patina, I would think just Watco or similar "Danish" oil type finish would work. May require an annual replenishment of the finish to hide scratches and help resist water (it would not be "waterproof").
I have read through this thread and would have to say, I think, next to a sink, anything less than a durable film forming finish will not hold up well, will be high maintenance, and will water spot and stain easily. I wouldn't useany of the shellacs, tung oils, waxes, mineral oils or any other non film forming finish.
If you want it to hold up you have to use oil polyurethane or a conversion varnish. Both these products when the film is cured are nontoxic and quite waterproof. The conversion varnishes I use from M. L. Campbell and Sherwin-Williams are also harder and more scratch resistant than most polyurethane.
Obviously, if you cut or scratch through the protective film, water will get under and quickly damage the wood. Still, I have done kitchen counters, wet bars, bathroom vanities (both new custom and antique furniture converted to this use); and not had a problem using these finishes. Most that I have done are holding up well after 10 years or more.
Of course, you wouldn't use it as a cutting surface any more than you would stone, tile or laminate... That's what cutting boards are for. Also, being fairly thick solid hardwoods, they can be sanded and refinished if it becomes necessary.
As for woods, I have used cherry, walnut, hard maple, mahogany, poplar, spalted magnolia, jarrah, and reclaimed heart pine. I don't like to use oak because of the large pores, but I have, after using a grain filler.
I think wood counter tops are beautiful and not nearly as impractical as most people think.
Brick,
You bring up a good point regarding film finishes.
Some woods need them, on other woods they are actually impractical.
For the most part, I don't see film finishes as practical on wood countertops in a working kitchen. As you wrote, the first ding can lead you down the road to having to refinish the slab. I a lightly used kitchen, sure they can be practical.
I worked backwards. What wood would work well with an oil finish. What wood would work around water. What wood is dense enough to be anti-dent and anti-ding.
Teak be dat wood for me.
Your right, with the mineral oil, the spotting was a concern in the first few weeks. It was my fault, as I had to install the tops the day I finished them. I didn't give adequate time. The good news is that spotting has not been a problem since.
I agree with all that no one should be using an edge-grain wood countertop for knife work. End-grain, have at it. Edge-grain? As the fibers get cut, it may eventually splinter. Plus it'll be the death knell if you have a film finish.