Hey all,
The business section is great entertainment, but I’ll post this in General Discussion for wider coverage. Now for my situation, and here’s your chance to beat up on the HO. I’m a homeowner and am planning an addition. I have a set of plans from an architect, including plumbing and electrical. I also know most of my finish details such as window sizes, window locations, interior and exterior finish. I am in the process of determining what I can accomplish in an addition based on how much I can borrow in a construction loan. I’ll be glad to provide more details if needed, but for now I’ll stick to the process through which I am navigating.
In order to determine costs, I started by running the numbers on supplies as well as getting cost estimates from tradesmen. Therefore, I have a reasonable judgement of cost. Due to interest expressed in my project by a GC which I stumbled across as I was pricing out materials, I am entertaining the notion of having the addition completed by a GC. Now, as a GC, would you be ticked if I decided to have you do part of the work and I, the HO, decided to complete the finish details in order to lower costs if you knew from the outset that I am in the process of coming up with costs and balancing what I can borrow with what parts of the job I am capable of completing?
I have been reading the posts looking for topics related to HO and GC relations, negotiation of price (ok, now I understand, you hate it when someone wants to play that game and I’ll be nice and accept the estimate if it is reasonable), and other related topics. My main interest in this post is to get from you, the GC, what makes the client-GC relation run smoothest. I know I am expected to be as detailed as possible. Similarly, if I am detailed, I don’t want to see a change order every other day. I recognize the potential for the unexpected, but you can see that I have some concerns with shucking out big bucks to a complete stranger. Talk to me about establishing a good relationship with a GC. I just want to be nice even if I am a suspicious, thrifty, and cranky guy at heart.
Thanks, and go ahead, start thumping.
Rob
Replies
Some will, some won't. I wouldn't recommend it myself. The thing is, what you build on top of his work will still be his reputation. The only way I could see doing it is if you're comfortable working under the GC, draw up a contract, and submit to his supervision of your work. I've worked jobs like that before, where the homeowner did cleanup and some painting and stuff, but all under the direction and supervision of the General. Seems like the type of job you'd want to have a real good rapport with the GC, because of the potential for communication and liability problems.
For what its worth, here's a real-life ex. from a job I general'd several years back: Homeowner wants to save money, says Why should I pay you to mark-up the floorcoverings 10% - I'll go buy them myself. OK, fine, I didn't like it, but didn't make an issue of it.
So he picks out flooring, and hires the installation. Installation begins, and he is happy, everyone is happy. Until Dr. Wife-y comes home (the breadwinner, in this case), and says "I don't like it! - the gaps are ugly." So he calls the flooring company, and tells them. They say "You were there to supervise installation when it began, and you said everything was fine. Plus, look at the showroom sample you picked - same gaps. So if you want it taken out, you can pay extra."
They argued, and finally the contractor said "I have plenty of other jobs, I don't need this headache" - and pulled off. Said "You can keep what we've done, we'll keep the deposit, and lets just call it even." Although the flooring installed up to that point was worth a lot more than the deposit.
So now that a lot of that new floor was actually free, it doesn't look so bad to Mamma. She says "We can keep it, and hire someone to finish it, and only spend a fraction of the original bid." Which they do. And people talk (not me). Word gets back to first flooring contractor, and he's pi$$ed that they didn't tear out the work they were complaining about.
So he files a lawsuit, and a lien. Now homeowner comes to me, "What shoud I do?" My reply? "You're the general, earn your 10%, and handle it yourself" (Not really in those words - I just tactfully explained that since I was not part or party to the transaction, I could not comment.) But I know this - I didn't have these types of problems with my subs, because we had built up a relationship over years of working together. We would have worked it out without litigation. He saved his 10%, and spent a few extra thousand on legal fees.
edited to add: For an example of how muddy the water gets over who is responsible for what, look at this thread http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53225.1
Edited 2/3/2005 1:09 am ET by Huck
Huck,
Good discussion in that link indeed. And thanks for the real life example. I've read numbers of those types of threads here and it is clear that there is a lot of room for trouble in this business and too much gray area. You guys must all have ulcers from dealing with picky HOs.
If the GC does only part of the job, I intend to let the GC do all of his parts of the scope and walk away. I will finish up. The nature of the job seems to lend itself to this method. I can't see any step in the process where he will have to wait for me or any sub that I hire. None of my parts of the scope will occur during his activities, only after.
Thanks,
Rob
Sounds like a clean break-off point for the general, so it may well work out. Have you visited this general's jobsites, looked at his work up close, checked his references? If you have, and are satisfied with his work, then I think you have a good chance for success.As far as owner-builder, a lot depends on your area, your personality, and your experience. If work in your area is booming, its harder to find good subs. If work is slower, you may find good subs eager for work. Another poster indicated some idea of the psychology involved in working with subs. As an example, one of my old bosses general'd the building of his own house (just before he hired me to run his work), and was too cheap to provide a jobsite toilet during construction ("They can use the gas station on the corner"). As a result, he didn't get the highest level of quality the subs were capable of (and once I went to work for him, they let me know it). Another big factor in successful management of subs is phone skills. I don't know anything about U-Build-It, but it sounds like it might be the ticket for your situation. The construction process is fraught with potential problems, but is manageable if you stay on top of things. Picky homeowners don't give me ulcers, I'm picky myself, as are a lot of craftsmen and contractors. As long as its clear what the homeowner wants, and the price is agreed upon, I don't think there should be a problem.
Rob, I'm one of those subcontractors that never get ulcers from homeowners. Why? Because I won't work directly for one.
Keep in mind, I have nothing against homeowners...after all, I'm a homeowner myself!
You said " If the GC does only part of the job, I intend to let the GC do all of his parts of the scope and walk away. I will finish up. The nature of the job seems to lend itself to this method. I can't see any step in the process where he will have to wait for me or any sub that I hire. None of my parts of the scope will occur during his activities, only after."
I see that as a recipe for disaster. It sounds like you are going to do the painting and finishing. I can pretty much guarantee that you probably don't know how important a good painter is to the overall finished project and that you'll be complaining that the GC didn't do their job right.
So, humor me...what parts of the job do you intend to do?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue eyed devil,
Paint schmaint. I'd say there's a 50/50 chance that I'd get a crumby paint job anyway. I use rollers for everthing. Painted my car with one the other day.
I won't complain about the GC if he does his part in a satisfactory manner. I'm not a blamer or a whiner. If I screw up, then I'll learn from my mistakes. The great thing about this forum is that everyone is willing to give advice and help prevent some of those mistakes, so I'm completely open to ridicule, no worries. Details are required to answer your question, so here goes.
The project is a basement under existing home (a 500 sq ft home).
GC would handle engineering, excavation, footings, foundation, new septic and associated plumbing, and radiant heat (tubing only). This is similar to what some have suggested in getting the GC to get me to the point of weathertight basement, I take care of the rest.
I would pick up at that point, interior framing (very minor amount, this is 500 sq ft)take care of electrical, plumbing, radiant heat mechanicals, drywall, interior and exterior finish.
Does that answer your question? Let me know if I can provide you with more info if needed. Please explain why this would be a disaster. Are there inspection logistics/issues that I have overlooked that would cause the GC heartburn for having to come back and see the disaster that I have created of his project? Please realize that my humor is only humor and not a smart a$$ comment.
Thanks for the advice,
Rob
Wow...great thread here.I'm kind of going through the same process myself on a small condo remodel (first home). I can give you my experience so far:When we first looked at the place and decided to buy it, we decided the kind of work that was going to need to be done and then brought in several contractors to give us an idea of costs. We wanted to do a lot of the work ourselves anyway since we're poor.One contractor - who we thought would definately be out of our price range - turned out to be cheaper than others because he was going to let us do a lot of the work ourselves and he agreed to serve as an "advisor" on the project and charge an hourly rate for anything that we needed him to do. This guy has been great...he got the permits for us and basically set us up to do the demolition. We actually ended up paying his son to do a lot of demo because it was taking a lot more time than I ever thought it would.Any time we have needed subs he has brought in the guys he usually works with for an estimate. Our cousin is an electrician, so that's taken care of, but we decided to go with a different (i.e. cheaper) plumber than this GC recommended and you can see the results of that in another thread.The plasterer we picked tried to change his estimate (to the tune of 50% more) right before we signed the contract. The GC got his plasterer to do it at close to the original price of our plasterer.The other day he walked in and saw the floor ripped down to the joists and me sweating like a dog and not knowing what the hell i was doing and he laughed out loud - said it reminded him of when he was just starting out.I'm rambling...but I will try to make some final bulleted points.-This thing will end up costing me 20% more than what i budgeted in money-This thing is costing me 100% more in time and energy than I thought-If you can afford it, a good GC is WELL worth the money. The relationships that these guys spend time developing really pay off. Also, they work much more cleaner and efficiently than I ever could. They can work with the BI so that things go smoothly and they can work with subs so that things happen on time.Of course this guy is nice and feels sorry for us but he's also a smart business man. He knows that by doing this for us that we're immediately going to call him to do the job on a nice victorian when we can afford it.
Rob,
First of all, YOU are the one who starts Change Orders. Except in the demo phase where the GC may find damage or structural changes needed to make the addition work, all CO's come from the client (you) changing their mind.
Other than that, it sounds like all you have to do is create a Scope of Work for the GC to estimate to. Leave out the things you want to do yourself.
SamT
Eddit: Re; CO's, you may get one or two in the estimating phase if the GC finds something the Archy drew that won't work. st.
Edited 2/3/2005 12:44 am ET by SamT
I don't have a problem with an owner putting in some sweat equity. It happens quite often. The work that the HO does is separate from mine. I wouldn't want a HO working with the crew, picking out materials or even going for coffee but, if they want me to frame and enclose and then take over. that's OK. I would say the most common HO involvement is painting. If they do a crappy job, they have to live with it, just don't hold up progress.
I've just been working on a job where the HO is staining and varnishing. This isn't your everyday house. Very expensive trim work, I prepared it carefully. The owner and his family crew did one of the worst jobs I've ever seen. With residential work, I seldom do the paint or finishing. It's a crying shame to put a $10 finish on a $15,000 staircase but I won't be living there.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hey Rob,
You said,
"I just want to be nice even if I am a suspicious, thrifty, and cranky guy at heart."
And I'm guessing that you're being somewhat sarcastic here. But a lot of truth is told in the guise of humor.
My advice: GC the job yourself. From what you've written, I think you'll have trouble recognizing and admitting to yourself the value added by a GC, so you'll resent the money you're paying for the GCs expertise, and time.
Go ahead and GC the job yourself. When you can't get good reliable subcontractors, because they're all busy working for GCs, you might realize the value that a good GC brings to a project. When some work fails inspection, or there is a waste of materials, on the work you've done, you might realize that the money paid to a GC buys his or her knowledge and experience.
OR, it all might work out great with you as GC.
Cliff
What Cliff said.
Another option is go the U Build it route. I think the web site is U build it .com Check it out. They let you be the GC, then they provided you with the subs. They get a much smaller cut then the GC and you have a good pipeline and a GC to fall back on if you need one.
I've never known anyone that's used the service but would be interested in findiing out how it goes.Who Dares Wins.
CAP,
You are correct and you read between the lines quite well. I've been known to think everything is overpriced. However, I do realize the worth of a GC and the amount of headache that he will save. I'm not so naive that I think I would know the business better than a GC. Just looking for advice, and as expected, it's always good here on Breaktime.
Thanks,
Rob
Rob,
The U-build-it approach might be just the ticket for you. In my area, at least, good GCs are pretty well booked solid, and so I think it'd be hard to find one who wants to complicate things by splitting responsibilities, and give up some of his profit, to boot.
But I understand your position, and I wish you the best of luck. Building is very rewarding, on many levels.
Cliff
As others have said, your scenario can work out or not. We have worked with ho's who have done everything from painting to tile to finish work. We have never had a problem with it, but it does require a little flexibility. It is not for everybody.
I don't think that the quality of the finished job has any effect on the contractor's reputation. Anybody looking at the job and knowing the people can figure it out.
A successful relationship is based on trust and on the good character of the parties. Before you choose a contractor, find out if he/she is worthy of your trust. Once you make your choice, prove that you are worthy of their trust. The establishment of this trust will get you through the inevitable problems which arise in any job.
Rob,
This is how I did it with my family room addition:
I drew up the plans myself and went over them in a sit-down meeting with the GC. At that time, we decided who did what - basically, he would do site prep, concrete / block work, framing, and roofing (he didn't do brickwork, so I sub'ed that out) and I would do everything else. Since I wanted some special windows / doors, I would order them and his guys would install them. I also tend to overbuild a little bit, so I let him know up front that I wanted one size larger floor joists than required for the span, and the subfloor screwed and glued instead of nailed (nailed is standard around here). As things progressed, there were only a couple of times when I got home from work and saw things that I either didn't anticipate or understand why they were done the way they were, and a quick phone call asking about it that evening was all it took to clear things up. I tried to stay out of their hair and let them work (although I did get to do a little labor on the concrete floor pour, since I happened to be off work that day and they were a couple of guys short that day).
After they were done with their part of the construction, I took over and did the wiring, insulating, drywall, hardwood flooring, window/door trim, etc. I decided a couple of months after they were done with their end and the brickwork was done that I didn't have time to finish the soffits and overhangs, so I called him up and asked if he could come and do the work - no problem, they would just work it in around their already scheduled jobs.
So, it can be done and everyone is happy, but it is vital that there is good communication about who does what, and that there be a good plan from the start. It doesn't hurt to give the guys a couple of "perks" - I had a refrigerator in the shop and made sure they knew it was well stocked with a variety of non-alcoholic cold drinks and they were welcome to them, a water spigot and hosepipe were always ready for them to use to wash up or cool off with, I kept trash picked up around the worksite, made sure that I told them what a good job they were doing when I happened to be home when they were there, etc.
Hope this helps,
-Chuck
I read Gunner's post and thought I'd share a little of our experience so far. We are using UBuildit to do a major whole house remodel including a large addition (practically new construction when it's all said and done).
UBuildit is exactly how he described. They are basically a builder consultant for the whole project. You are your own GC but they are always around to answer questions, come out to your site, help you find subs that they have experience with, help you get quotes and help you work with the subs effectively. The advantage of having them help you find subs is that the subs seem to be more willing to work with a UBuildit led homeowner because they know if they do good work, they could get repeat business, not from the Homeowner, but from UBuildit's other clients.
We had a few GC's quote us around $400,000 for the whole project (gulp). But we are doing it with UBuildit for around $225,000 (baring any major cost overruns) and we are barely going to do anything of the work ourselves.
Our Framer starts monday so we are still early on in the process but it's worked out great so far and UBuildit has a pretty good rep I think.
Good luck!
-Kacy
I'll check that out. Thanks.
BTW, the are a number of company like Ubuild-It. They all seem to be regional.Presidentail (or President) Homes is another one.And there is a new one from out of Texas that I hear advertising on the Radio. Don't remember their name.They will probably show up in a google on Owner Builder Homes.
Bill
There is a bit of difference between U Build and President Homes.
President sells you the stuff to build, will do any or all of the building.
U-Build is more of a consultant, they do have subs at there disposal.
Anyhow that's what I know about the two.
I saw a billboard down here in TX that said something about a similar Co. I think it was "Ownerbuilder network" IIRC
Doug
I'd be curious to know how u-build it makes the bucks. Percentage? Flat fee? Kickbacks - oops enrolment fees- from subs for placing them on the referal lists?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I dont know if someone else answered your Q or not but I believe they get %, I know someone that built a house down here in TX using them, thats sorta what I got out of it.
I may be mistaken but I thought its was in the neighborhood of 10%, dont quote me on that though.
If ten percent is close than that sure would cut into the savings that one can hope to make on the whole thing.
Doug
Plenty of builders work on only 7-10% markup so it is hard to see where anyone saves by using them if they sub it all out.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I see
K C
Mariecan we put that to a tune?Thanks.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually Piffin, UBuildit charges a flat fee based on square footage. They (UBuildit) touts this as a big advantage to a GC. Mostly because they don't up their fee if you decide to spend more later on the details. So whether or not you go all out with all the luxuries or go bare bones, it's the same price.
Our rep actually gave us a pretty good deal. It's a long story...but basically we started the planning process with one UBuildit Franchise and then had to transfer to the other local UBuildit franchise that had just started up.
We switched because the original guy decided to move out of state and sell his franchise. The original guy felt bad about "abandoning us" so he asked the new guys to give us a deal. Basically we added square footage later during the planning process and they still gave us the flat fee based on the original, smaller square footage. The total came to $11,500 for the whole project.
But that's typically how they price it. It's definitely not based on percentage of what you spend. We could go crazy spending money on top of line stuff now and the fee would not change (as long as we didn't start adding square footage).
Hope that answers your question!
-Kacy
I don't know about kickbacks...we asked them about it a long time ago and they said they didn't get them but I can't vouch for that personally! They could've been fudging the truth, who knows.
But the better subs they get us, the less involved they have to be in our process. The more problems we have, the more we are on the phone calling them! :)
What is their fee?Joe Carola
Their fee was $11,500 based on a 1500 sq. ft. addition. But I think it's usually more than that for 1500 sq. ft. Like I mentioned, they gave us a deal.
They also have different pricing based on whether it's new construction vs. a remodel. But both pricing sheets are based on sq. ft. unless you're not adding sq. ft. and are just remodeling existing. Then it might be based on a value $ of the remodel.
Yes, Ownerbuilder Network is the new one that I hear advertised in KC.There are no U-Build-It's in this area.But there is a Presidential Homes operation.The run ads all the times in the Sunday RE section, usually an open house for a newly constructed home by one of their clients. I don't know what kind of materials that they supply or than just sources of supply. All of the homes that they have featured have been "custom", at least they are not "packaged homes" of any kind.However, I suspect that the homes that they feature or not there typical client, but I might be wrong. BTW, the best that I can tell these are all franchises with different people running the local operations so there might be a fair amount of variation from place to place.
"We had a few GC's quote us around $400,000 for the whole project (gulp). But we are doing it with UBuildit for around $225,000 (baring any major cost overruns) and we are barely going to do anything of the work ourselves."
Your price did not go from $400K to $225K simply by switching from a GC build to UBuildit.
Impossible.
Apples to apples?
nothing deleted ... no scope of work altered?
I'm not buying this one.
a 42.5% savings? .... I'd like to see the books at the end ... if something sounds "too good to be true" .... it usually is. No way it's the same end result ... let along same materials ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
dammit Jeff, you beat me to the punch again.....
I had exactly the same reaction.
I'm sorry the person who posted this thread will read this.
carpenter in transition
I think that is how U-build works. Low ball pricing from inexperienced subs who need the work and unrealistic expectations from HOs
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Jeff (and Rob),
I'm sure you're right. It's definitely not apples, to apples. Sorry that I implied that you could save 40% by just doing it yourself. I agree that's not realistic. They (UBuildit) say it's between 20% and 30% savings over hiring a general contractor. But I guess we'll see, wont we?
I think the GC we got the quote from was used to doing higher end projects. So when we gave him our plans, he gave us an "approximate" cost of the type of job he normally does. He was also probably just trying to being safe by quoting high anyway. We weren't paying him to do the quote so maybe he just gave us a average $/sq. ft. type price. I don't know.
He's also got a good reputation too. Maybe he doesn't like to build a home where people skimp on things so he'll only do jobs for people who can afford to do it high end. Another factor with the quote was the fact that it was a remodel so there are a lot more unknowns with what you'll find when you start tearing stuff out. Maybe he put extra padding in the numbers for that too.
In reality I just think we were/are a lot more willing to go light (money-wise) on things because there's no way in hell we could afford a $400K home.
I know a lot of you contractors are extremely skilled and proud of your work and frown on homeowners who cut costs and skimp on things. But sometimes for us to be able to afford it, that's how it has to go. We decided to skimp on things that we could upgrade later if we choose to, i.e. countertops, fixtures, etc. But not on things that are essential to the basic quality of our home like our foundation waterproofing, windows, etc. We truly tried to balance size of the remodel with the cost and also with the quality. It's a hard balance! :)
As far as UBuildit goes, I really don't feel like they always suggested the cheapest contractors. In fact, they often gave us a few choices. But they always suggested a company that they had personal experience with (had worked with them before) and felt that they would do a good job.
That's my opinion of our reps but if you go meet with your local UBuildit rep you can talk to them and decide for yourself if you like what you hear.
-Kacy
Edited 2/3/2005 4:04 pm ET by kcmarie122
Kacy,
Good points. It's always the reality part that makes it difficult.
Rob
"I know a lot of you contractors are extremely skilled and proud of your work and frown on homeowners who cut costs and skimp on things. But sometimes for us to be able to afford it, that's how it has to go. We decided to skimp on things that we could upgrade later if we choose to, i.e. countertops, fixtures, etc. But not on things that are essential to the basic quality of our home like our foundation waterproofing, windows, etc. We truly tried to balance size of the remodel with the cost and also with the quality. It's a hard balance! :)"
That's the big difference .... "cut costs" is lots different than "skimp"
nothing wrong with cutting costs to fit the budget ... just don't "skimp" on materials or quality. I don't see a PLam countertop as being "skimpy" over granite. Just c good cost cutting measure.
I'm curious ... before deciding the UBuiltIt route ...did U seek out other contractors and try to get someone to work closer to your budget?
And .. have U started building yet?
This would be a good topic for U to start a thread that updates the process.
Hope it works well ... glad to see no one expects a $400K house for $225K!
btw ... that 20% to 30% savings ... I'm still not buying that either. Ask the accomplishied DIY home builders around here ... I'd bet most say they saved under 20% ... if that. Since the BuiltIt people are supposed to help hammer out the little details as they crop up ... they gotta be charging for that service somewhere ...
Nothing's free.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff,
One way that the DIY on contracting route saves is that we don't need all the money ready to start the job. Our addition took a couple of years, but by spacing things out we were able to avoid a loan and the subsequent finance charges completely. That adds a significant savings onto a project.
If you take out that savings, I doubt we saved ANY money, and certainly didn't save any frustration in the final analysis. I definitely would have gone with a GC if that option had been open to us, unfortunately every decent guy around here was too busy for such a small job. We did try, but the only people willing to even look at the project just didn't seem 'right'.
Amy
Jeff,
Yeah, I guess skimp was a bad word. Cutting costs is what we're really trying to do.
Yup, we started building in late December. The framer starts Monday. So far so good but we haven't gotten very far yet! Although we did add basement to our existing basement. We wanted a basement under the addition. It was a little challenging though because our old basement was shallower than our new basement was going to be. It involved underpinning but overall it went well.
I wouldn't mind posting updates to our project if people were interested but we're no experts. I have been reading through the boards the past few months to get some good tips from all of you!
-Kacy
Kacy,
I for one would be interested in watching your project advance, start a post when you get some pictures or something to kick it off.
Rob
Since it is a remodel, take the figure you now have ($225,000?) and multiply it by one hundred and twenty percet.$275,000 is now closer to what you wil spend
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
we got different ways of saying the same thing ...
I tell people all the time ...
decide what a realistic "top dollar" budget is ... exactly how much can U really afford ...
and if that number is true ...
now either scale back 20% ... or beg/borrow/steal 20% more ....
because you ARE going to go 20% above that budget ... no matter what it is ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"We had a few GC's quote us around $400,000 for the whole project (gulp). But we are doing it with UBuildit for around $225,000 (baring any major cost overruns) and we are barely going to do anything of the work ourselves."There telling you it will cost AROUND $225,000.00 and they're baring any major cost overruns. I assume all that is in their contract and all of what your going to do is not included in that $225,000.00 or is it?It sounds like they're acting as a Construction Manager but around here the Construction Managers that I know get a percentage of the job cost and that's anywhere from 10-15%. Your saying they're fee is based on the square foot of the addition. The Construction Managers around here run the job and deal with all the subs on a daily bases and get all the invoices from all the subs and give them to the homeowner and then the homeowner writes out all the checks. Do you do that or do the subs deal directly with you and you pay them?I'm just trying to understand this UBuildit company because I've never heard of them.Joe Carola
Me too, The ads I hear on the radio sound lie the stretch the fabric of reality with their claims but I have no direct information
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Piffin
I see I have been corrected by some one that actually knows what they are talking about! :)
KC seems to have straitened you out on the cost.
I probably wasn't listening or my source wasn't any more knowledgeable than me!
Doug
Your source mauy not have been wrong exactly. It may be that the company charges a flat feet per sq ft, but that your source was thinking in terms of a percentage, so he made tjhat conversion in his mind and reported it that way.If their primary product/service is to provide advice and a list of potential subs to use, together with sceduled inspections on site, it stands to reasion that the cost to them would be no larger for an expensive home than for a basiv economy model.
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Hmmm, so many questions from all of you! I didn't know what I was getting into when I posted my first response!
UBuildit definitely does not do what it sounds like your construction managers do around there. The only time they deal with the subs without you is when they gather the quotes for you in the early stages (before construction). After they give you the quotes the job rests entirely on our shoulders. We are the decision makers, we pick which subs we want to use (even if it's not one of the ones they got a quote from, we can pick the guy next store if we wanted), we watch the budget, we get the loan, we sign the checks, we do everything. Also, if we decide to do some of the work ourselves, we don't ask anyone if we can, we just do whatever we want. The only thing they do after getting the quotes is answer your questions and help you be "your own GC."
They did not say, "your project will cost $225,000, sign this contract and we promise you it will only cost you that much." The quotes gave us an estimate of what we could approximately do the project for if we used all their subs. They are not "baring any major cost overruns", we are hoping there are no major cost over runs besides the contingencies we already have in place. They told us this in the beginning so we put in some padding here and there in our budget with their help. We also have about $40,000 of additional money that was already figured into our construction loan (by our lender) plus we have some money saved in the bank just in case we go over that too(God forbid!). So I guess the project could eventually end up costing us closer to $300,000 if we let it (by picking the rarest of granites for our countertops) or if fate demands it (by something accidentally going really wrong)!
Overall, I think it's just like being your own GC except the guys at UBuildit are there to answer questions when they come up. We are the ones who deal with all the subs 99% of the time. Sometimes the UBuildit guy will come out for a "site visit" which is usually our first onsite meeting with the sub so they can help make sure that it goes smoothly. They help us know what questions to ask the subs and how to avoid misunderstandings. But they are not legally responsible for anything really. They also have relationships with various companies that allow us to have the typical builder discount. They say this also helps to save some costs.
Hopefully it's not too good to be true for us! We think we have a realistic attitude about the whole thing. We're not expecting our dream house for half the price!
I'll post some info and pictures in another thread when I get a chance!
-Kacy
Edited 2/4/2005 11:13 pm ET by kcmarie122
"They also have relationships with various companies that allow us to have the typical builder discount. They say this also helps to save some costs. "
So how's that supposed to work? I'm guessing from what U said ... that you simply call the lumber yards they recommend and get material price quotes yourself?
Do you just call and say U got their name/number from UBuiltIt .... then handle all the details yourself?
And while I'm trying to figure this out .... the plans ... did they help at all with the plans and take offs? Or did U have the plans beforehand then contact them?
This is all new to me.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Yup, we already had the plans all finalized by our architect before we contacted them.
And yes, we contact the company (ex. the lumberyard) and tell them we got their names from UBuildit. Then they typically give us the builder discount and we work with them directly.
I think UBuildit works out an agreement with the companies beforehand. Maybe something like, "Hey we (UBuildit) have a lot of people coming through here that need lumber, if you (the lumberyard) give them the builder discount, we'll send them your way."
I don't know for sure but that seems to be how it's working so far.
-Kacy
what number did the architect give you as a cost? Closer to the 400 or 225?
just curious .... as I don't put much stock in architect numbers ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
They didn't give us any numbers at all actually. I guess I'm just confused why it sounds so outrageous to build a 1500 sq. ft. addition for (approximately) $225,000. Is that unreasonable. Are we crazy?
I never should've even mentioned the $400,000 figure. That's what started all of this in the first place! :) I seriously learned my lesson!
-Kacy!
No. Not at all.
At least, not in my area.
Numbers vary all across America ... then ... they vary all across the levels of "finish".
So $225K ... and $400K ... could both be perfectly acceptable.
same with $50K and $500K.
don't take all these Q's "personally" ... no one's trying to attack you.
Some are even trying to "save" ya ... or at least alert you.
True ... the $400 to $225 has got some latched on too tight ...
But ... even w/o those numbers ... still an interresting topic to us.
Like I said ... I was interrested enough to find out there isn't one close to me. Other wise I'd be asking them the questions.
The truth is ... most of the "well do the work for U" and "GCing your own home will save U millions" ads that have come up before in the past were for the most part either scams ... or if on the up and up ... didn't perform nearly as well as the HO's had expected.
Now I'm not saying the companies mentioned here are like that ...
Just trying to get more info.
Naturally most builders and GC's don't think an outside company can perform their duties AND save the customer much money. The reason ... all the working GC's here know its a full time and a half job getting things running smoothly while being on site.
I am surprised your architects didn't give you a price point.
How do ya draw plans without knowing the customers budget ...
or is that how it worked ... U just said ... we wanna spend around $225K ...
and they just worked off that?
gotta know where ya wanna end before you can start.
hey .. call your UBuilt it people and let them know you're doing some factual PR for them ... tell them ya want at least a free tshirt for answering all these Q's ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Thanks Jeff!
I will try not to take it personally! I just couldn't believe how much attention that one comment drew! Like I said before, I learned my lesson.
Yeah, I should try and get that free shirt for sure! I just figured if there was interest, I could do my best to explain it the way we see it! When we first met with them, UBuildit had a lot of statistics about how often "their" Homeowners finish on time and how often they finish within 5% of their initial budget. Who knows how legit those statistics were but they were pretty good. (I don't remember the actual percentages)
We told our architect our general price range at the beginning. And they seemed to think it was do-able. I think they (and us too) just kept our budget in mind as we worked with them on the plans. The whole house was our idea really, they just helped us fine tune it!
I will definitely post updates to our project every now and then so you all can see if this whole "UBuildit system" actually works! We at least got our foundation done without major problems and we were even under budget. We were under budget because we ended up going with a different foundation contractor than who we originally had quote us and the new company turned out to be a little less expensive. (This is the kind of thing I was talking about when I mentioned that everything was an approximate!)
Thanks again for your kind words!
-Kacy
UBuildit is exactly how he described. They are basically a builder consultant for the whole project. You are your own GC but they are always around to answer questions, come out to your site, help you find subs that they have experience with, help you get quotes and help you work with the subs effectively.
Is there a limit as to how many times they will come out to the site?
UBuildit definitely does not do what it sounds like your construction managers do around there. The only time they deal with the subs without you is when they gather the quotes for you in the early stages (before construction). After they give you the quotes the job rests entirely on our shoulders. We are the decision makers, we pick which subs we want to use (even if it's not one of the ones they got a quote from, we can pick the guy next store if we wanted),
What happens if you don't like any of their subs and the subs you get all come in higher than their subs?
we watch the budget, we get the loan, we sign the checks, we do everything. Also, if we decide to do some of the work ourselves, we don't ask anyone if we can, we just do whatever we want. The only thing they do after getting the quotes is answer your questions and help you be "your own GC."
Other than seeing they're subs quotes is there anything in writing from them stating that once you've hired Ubuildit that they're subs quotes will stay the same so it doesn't go over your budget?
We had a few GC's quote us around $400,000 for the whole project (gulp). But we are doing it with UBuildit for around $225,000 (baring any major cost overruns) and we are barely going to do anything of the work ourselves
Then you said, They did not say, "your project will cost $225,000, sign this contract and we promise you it will only cost you that much." The quotes gave us an estimate of what we could approximately do the project for if we used all their subs.
So what your saying is that a few other GC's came in at $400,000 and Ubuildit gave you quotes/estimates OF WHAT WE COULD APPROXIMATELY DO THE PROJECT FOR USING THEIR SUBS from start to finish from all their subs for around $225,000.
we are hoping there are no major cost over runs besides the contingencies we already have in place. They told us this in the beginning so we put in some padding here and there in our budget with their help. We also have about $40,000 of additional money that was already figured into our construction loan (by our lender) plus we have some money saved in the bank just in case we go over that too(God forbid!).
So your baring all major costs and overruns but what costs and overruns would you bare if Ubuildit gave you a price using all their subs for $225,000 ?
I see now because it's an APPROXIMATE cost. So then all their subs quotes/estimates are an APPROXIMATE /GUESTIMATE to me.
Where are you protected now with any subs pricing. How do you know now that your locked into them that their subs prices can't go up because they were just an APPROXIMATE guess at what the job should cost.
What's to stop that $225,000 from going up to $400,000. It sounds to me like they tell you what you want to here for your budget and then the charge you a fee based on the square foot of your addition and then your on your own because none of their subs that they got qotes for you are locked into those prices.
How are you protected as far as how much more you can go over the $225,000??
Joe Carola
Edited 2/5/2005 5:04 pm ET by Framer
rob... we do fixed price contracts that include or exclude anything the owner wants
it is usually so they can get what they want by including sweat equity instead of hard cash..
it is also sometimes a question of stretching out their expenditures..
"they have so much now... and next year they'll have some more, etc.."
some of our most interesting jobs have been joint operations with shared responsibilities...
as long as i feel comfortable with the Owners, we can exclude anything their heart's desire
typical exclusions: painting, floor finishes, landscaping..... some demo..
interior doors & trim, unfinished baths (eg: perhaps a 3 bath house with one future bath )....
with us ,it comes down to the honesty of the two partiesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Due to choice of title, I almost didn't click in on this thread - sounds too negative - untill I saw that it seemed to be a very active one.
I'm curious why you chose such a title if what you really wanted was helpful advice? humour? OK. Otherwise...are you the kind who invites abuse generally? Is there a sign on your back saying, "Kick me, Please!"
Your answer has a lot to do with what sort of answer I would give to your other questions.
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Hey Piffin,
Some old salt once said "Perception is all there is." I suppose he was right. The title was indeed in humor, intended to catch somebody's attention, but also somewhat in truth as CAP so wisely recognized.
Having read several threads of similar topic, I notice that there are some posters who don't beat around the bush when it comes to ferreting out the details of another posters personality. I am indeed looking for helpful advice. I am also trying to determine whether or not I will come across as pushy or too demanding as I consider moving forward with this GC (trying to establish trust and mutual respect). Not having been down this exact road before, I figure this discussion will make me honest, i.e. am I trying to be a cheapskate or is what I am proposing acceptable to the general construction community? This is especially important because, to date, my interraction with the GC has been a little like passing a cactus back and forth. We both have similar personality types - a little high strung, detail oriented, very direct which may sometimes come across as aggressive, but really I am not aggressive, quite passive, just have to make points extremely clear in these types of situations. I have found many times that two people can be talking, both of them think they know what the other is saying, and neither of them are even close to interpreting the information as it is intended to come across. You guys are the experts in this field and this is a great forum.
Piffin, I hope my answer suits your pending decision whether or not to respond. I have read your posts a number of times and they are always insightful and right to the point. Furthermore, you once posted on a thread that discussed in great detail almost exactly the project which I am preparing to undertake - basement under existing home.
Thanks,
Rob
What Gunner said, only more.
Why not do it ALL yourself.
I see you are only 31 YO. and live in Utah, a right to work state so you don't have to deal with any union inspired limitations, and probably no political inspired limitations.
If you answer No to all of the below, you can do it all yourself in 2 years or less with great profit.
1. Does the aspect scare wifey or is she apprehensive?
2. more than 2 kids under 7 YO?
3. Make over $100K year
4. Are you illiterate or retarded? (obviously not) or have any physical dissabilities.
5. Without health insurance?
6. Less than $30,000 cash on hand
7. Unwilling to learn or spend >$5000 for tools in the next few years?
8. Are you scared of electricity?
9. Any local regs or laws that prohibit DIY.
10. More than 1 woman to please? (includes mother and MIL)
If all No, go for it. Been there, done it.
Junkhound,
Great top 10 for the DIY. I especially like the more than 1 woman to please comment. You know this is Utah, what were you thinking? How many did Brigham have? What do you think the extra square footage is for?
Rob
I see you do have a good sense of humour!With more than one woman to please, you need it...LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
2. more than 2 kids under 7 YO?
Here in UT the average family is likely to have SEVERAL children under age 7 (maybe 5 or so). That's with only one wife.
3. Make over $100K year
BwaaHaaaHaaaHaaa.
9. Any local regs or laws that prohibit DIY.
Unfortunately, here in Utah, all plumbing must be done by a licensed contractor. No DIY allowed. Strangely they don't have that restriction on electric.
10. More than 1 woman to please? (includes mother and MIL)
C'mon, this is Utah. Ever wondered what it must be like to have 7 mothers in law, all concurrently?
I happen to love and get along well with my MIL.
That said, I'm still glad she lives 800 miles away and our visits don't last more than a couple of weeks.
7 MILs? Brrrrrrr.
Why is income over $100K a disqualification for an owner/builder?
Not a disqualification, just a decision point where another trade study needs to be made. E.g. If you can work overtime or your extra 'day job" time yields $60/hr or more, you may be better off hiring some work after accounting for tax burdens, etc. List was about doing it ALL, not just being a GC. A further consideration is that something like framing is a lot more worthwhile than going to the gym on both a DIY basis and exercise basis. Also assuming that one enjoys performing all the building trades.
It sounds like you have a l;ot in common with that potential contractor. Broach the subject with him.Answer to your Q is that it depends...As I get older and work opportunities increase relative to my reputation, I find myself elss willing to take on the hard work of the foundation and framing and leaving the nicities to someone else. I have worked partial jobs in conjunctiopn with the HO more times than I can remember, starting first with being a subcontractor for self GCs like you may be here. More often than not, they ended up hirting me to project manage the job. Then, I did a lot of primary porject management style contracts and now I am doing mostly total job GC work. You might say that I moved up the food chain.
But in almost every case, one of the main reasons for accepting a job or developing a relationship with a client was whether I liked both the proposed job and the client. If we don't see eye to eye, I don't work out. Wecan disagree and work it out, letting the cream of our collective ideas rise the the surface. So you could start out a discussion by asking what he would consider the ideal building job. see how close the aanswer dovetails with what you have in mind.The fact that you share detail interest and other things might cause you to butt heads occasionally too. It will be good to establish who is in charge, and for you to be ready to relinquish control in areas where he clearly knows better then you - not about what you want, but about how to get it done.One word of caution though - you found him accidentally when shopping materials?
Check out his credentials - some of the greatest, most ammenable hacks i have ever known garnered all their work that way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Rob-
Digging a basement under a house! Nice! I know you won't believe this, but my name is Rob and I dug a basement under my house last winter. I'm 34 yrs old. Unfortunately, I didn't meet all of the DIY checklist. But I made it and we have 1000 sq ft of new basement.
It was a lot of work. And I mean a lot. I was fortunate that my usually busy job, of which I'm on salary, became rather unbusy. I also work at home. So I was able to "goof off" for the better part of two months whlie I GC'd this thing myself. I had a very excellent concrete guy who did the excavation via Bobcat and put in the ICF foundation and then did my structural concrete decks and flatwork. He was awesome and it couldn't have happened without him. I handled all the rest of the details like moving mechanicals, getting the new structural steel spec'd and ordered and ready to install, miscellaneous framing, inspections, etc. I also sub'd out the brickwork to a mason who happens to also be awesome. I'm not sure how I managed to find these two main subs, but it happened. They weren't in any phone book or anything, I found them by just asking around and making some phone calls. You'll know when the right sub shows up. I had several others show up and I could tell it just wasn't there for them.
Now, to answer your question about hiring it out to a GC. I did the job for about $45k. So that was excavation, debris removal, foundation, new slab, brickwork. However, here's the problem. Look at this job from a GC standpoint. He's covering his #### - your digging a basement under a house. Can you imagine the things that can go wrong? This isn't framing a new addition - something that is pretty easy to understand the scope of work. If I were pricing the job I did, it would have been at least $100k. Yes that's right, I would have made $50k+ IF IT ALL WENT CORRECTLY. Of course, I'm the homeowner and very determined, so it all went right for me. There was no other choice. But a GC has to cover his butt in case your house falls in the hole.
If you want to pay a GC for it, have somebody GC you a weathertight, but no mechanicals basement. Get that far. That will be a huge part of the battle. Then revisit the second phase which will be making it living space. And don't forget you will have to rebuild a good part of your yard after you tear out under your house. That was something I didn't quite appreciate until the job was done and I was left with the mud pit.
BTW, look back at all the posts by me, particulary stuff in Photo Gallery and you'll see the occasional picture of the job. You'll also be entertained by the thread "Crawlspace Digout" in the Photo Gallery section where the BT'rs ripped me up and down and sideways for having my house standing up on hydraulic jacks instead of "propering cribbing". Whatever.
MERC.
DJ Merc,
You are a crack up. Very informative thread with regard to your project. You did a good job, but you took a beating by the BTers. But, great job, you must like the additional space.
I'm glad to see what your costs were. That's on par with my estimates, mine being a little lower than 45K for the items you list, but I've got 500 sq ft to build. But, of course, economy of scale is an issue as well.
I have considered having a GC just do the concrete work as you suggest, but I think it may be smoothest to throw in at least the plumbing because of radiant heat, floor drains, and a new septic. But, I'm still considering options. Just depends on my loan, some permitting details, and making such an agreement with a GC.
This thread continues to provide.
Rob
" what makes the client-GC relation run smoothest"
Honesty.
and doing all the leg work up front. Have all the major decisions made .... have plans A, B and C ....
why do ya know only "most" of the finish details ... did the Archy give ya a full set of plans or not?
Your idea though of having a GC build the box then U trim it out ...
that's done all the time.
No problem what so ever it it's all layed out like that from the get-go.
Just decide where and when U want to take over.
Notice I said ... take over ... and not step in.
Because the only way this works is if there's a set point of completition for the GC to be "finished" .... excavation/foundation/basement/walls and roof framing ... give U a water tight, roofed,exterior completed addition ....
or go farther and run the mechanicals and have the drywall hung.
going to drywall hung and finished gets U thru all the rough inspections.
the mechanical trades would have to come back to trim and get their final inspections. Even that could be given in two contracts ... they sub the rough thru the GC and the final fixture setting thru you ... a good GC should be able to "broker" a deal with his subs to break their one contract into 2 .. one signed by the GC .. the second by U. Just don't expect to get the same pricing as the GC ... and to make this step flow better ... don't ask to supply any of your own materials.
I've had the rare chance to do the framing and exterior on two such addition projects ... then after leaving the company ... I went back and worked for the owners to wrap up the inside
First one the cutomers asked me to come back .. second .. the GC recommended me to finish "his" .. actually my .. work.
The deal from the beginning was the GC was just going to design/build the shell ...
complete exterior .... and mechanicals. One went to framing ... the other to drywall.
Each went thru the same drywall company .. the original gc's sub ...as the second HO couldn't find any drywall companies to come take a look.
Both also finished up using the same electrician, plumber and hvac guys ...
I did all the trim and punch list work.
one did their own painting ... another used the GC and my referal of the GC's painting sub.
Not sure how much they saved ... shoulda been some.
Probably a coupla bucks an hour .. my rates vs the companies ...
no mark up on the customer supplied trim materials
Here's a tip ... depending how ya do the interior ... this worked well for both ... as the first customer got a brand new credit card specifically for this work ... and gave it to me to charge everything. The second customer just opened a cash account at the lumber yard I recommended ... and I ordered from there.
With the right people ... it can be done.
Gotta have everything laid out up front ... no secrets though. And plans gotta be good ....otherwise it'll all fall apart when someone new comes in to trim and you're told for the first time that everything is wrong.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Thanks, more great information. I continue to read and learn.
Rob
We decided to skimp on things that we could upgrade later if we choose to, i.e. countertops, fixtures, etc.
I wonder about this. I'm completing my owner/builder job and went with some "nice" finishes, I don't know about high, high-end, but custom or semi-custom. I am doing/did most my own finish work and figured saved enough to put in Silestone, nice trim, nicer appliances, decent tile work, and some other nicer touches. But when I got to thinking about it, would I really be that far ahead skimping on some stuff and really saving money when later I might want to upgrade?
Here's what I'm getting at; if I resolve myself to skimp and "upgrade" later, not only do I have the cost of the initial construction, but then the tear out/remodel down the road, and then new year's dollars. I don't know, I understand if you don't have it now, you will get it (the money) more than likely down the road. To me it just seems like you put what you want (within reason) in now, and not worry about the upgrade down the road.
I found with my own project, I could probably have afforded a little bit more house. I kept change orders down to absolute minimum on my part; and if they did happen, I tended to do them myself. I think I did save money GC'ing my project, but probably not as much as a lot of people think when you gotta contribute often to that GC "tuition" whether with time, mistakes, or dollars. I still would do everything I did again, save some changes of course; maybe I'd do it again because so many said I couldn't/shouldn't do it. Anyway, not directly related to the OP, but just some of my change (pennies) jingling in my pocket.
Buck's given some great info, especially about the subs.
I don't know how things work in Utah, but here in NJ the law says the final payment is not to be made until final inspections are done and the CO is issued.
Since you're going to be doing most or all of the finish work yourself, getting the finals could drag on awhile. Keeping everyone paid up will greatly improve relations, as well as get them back when you're ready for them.
Just staying in touch and giving everyone a heads-up on scheduling makes a big difference, too. The subs are more likely to go work for the GCs that keep them busy on a regular basis than a HO that only needs them once.
It sounds like you should be up to the task. Just remember that things won't always go smoothly, and keep that sense of humor.
You'll be needing it.
A few of the guys have suggested you go whole hawg and be your own GC. I agree; that'll probably work out better than trying to be half an HO and half your own boss....
Once you take that basic decision, consider hiring a reputable remodeler or renovation specialist to (a) do the work you won't be doing personally, and (b) act as a project manager/consultant; in many cases such a person/company will have hands-on experience in almost all the trades you will need to deal with, and will have established relationships with good local tradesmen (excavators, concrete work, electricians, plumbers, etc.) for those parts he can't/doesn't want to do himself.
My typical arrangement with clients for jobs like yours is that the owner is legally the GC, and I bill on a straight T&M basis, with any 'subs' billed off to the client at my cost plus. But I take responsibility for any sub I bring in, just as a GC would have to. The HO may buy any materials he thinks he can get cheaper direct than through me (I add a stated percentage to my cost), but in that case I do not guarantee the materials. Most HOs find it's worth their peace of mind and saved time and hassle to pay me +5% on my cost, which is usually less than he can buy it for anyway.
As for establishing a good relationship with whomever you hire, just remember the following two things: (1) have enough funds available so you can cut checks when your GC or PM needs them; and (2) LISTEN to your hired expertise before taking any operational decisions. You don't have to agree with everything he suggests...but you're paying him in large part for his knowledge and experience, so don't insult him by ignoring what he has to say.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?