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I would like some advice from those that have come before me. We have a large remodel ahead of us, and we will need the skills of multiple craftsmen. When obtaining a skilled worker, is it best to work up a semi-complete work order, submit it to a few select, prospective contractors, then try to make a decision about who to go with. Then after that decision is made, sit down and work the details…OR is it better to have a very detailed work order from the get go. We have some specific requests, all of which are flexible, but we don’t want to overwhelm bidders. The second part of my question is, if we work out the specifics after a preliminary bid process, what is a tactful way to deal with artists, AND NOT PISS THEM OFF. Should I ask what building method they would use to accomplish our requests, and then get down to the details, or should we just list our wants…(i.e. We want to build solidly. Would it be better to just give specs, or ask them what they have done in the past.) Finally, should ALL the details be spelled out (ex. “8′ x 4′ x 56′ of 3/4″ crushed stone, compacted every 1 verticle ft, surrounded with filter fabric, with rigid perforated drain pipe covered with filter sock, surrounding foudation installed level with base of footing, sloped to daylight”) or how much detail is necessary. Builders, help me out here. I don’t want to make anyone mad, but at the same time, I want to be happy with what we get. I am also willing to adjust to a less retentive attitude.
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Kurt,
If the project is large, complicated and you want it done right, I'd start off with a good set of engineered drawings and have everyone work from them.
Work with the draftsman, engineer or architect and detail exactly what you want on the prints and then everyone will sing (or at least try to sing)to the same music.
Sure, it'll cost you as the paperwork part of any project isn't cheap but its definitely worth it.
Mike
*And.....hire someone else to deal with all the contractors. My first impression is that you don't seem to have the expertise to deal on the same level as the contractors and you would need a pro to guide you through the steps.The biggest mistake most home owners make is to not respect the level of expertise required to do quality work and because they are not of the trade cannot recognize that expertise only the personality of the applicant.Gabe
*Kurt, are you going to act as your own general contractor, or hire a builder? Unless you know a lot about building you can't possibly write up a spec sheet with precise details for every trade. On the other hand, without a detailed contract, you are at the mercy of the individual contractors. An architect or general contractor would be invaluable in helping you decide what you need for your house, and in getting the people there to do the work. It's not quite as easy as it looks on TV. The architect or GC can help you write a detailed contract specifying all the little bits and pieces that make the house go together. Working this out with each trade on your own is guaranteed to leave you frustrated, and the project will cost more than it needs to. But you will learn a lot. To find a professional to help you with the building process, ask friends, family, or coworkers for recomendations, or drive by houses under construction that look professional--clean, neat, progressing at a reasonable pace, well-kept tradesmen's vehicles in the yard. Get the builder's name off the sign in the yard and give him a call. Interview several builders to make sure you have found one you like and trust. This is MUCH more effective, and will make you project more enjoyable, than trying to get "bids" for the work you want done. If you really want to be your own GC, I would suggest interviewing the individual contractors in the same way, let them know your specific requirements, and ask for feedback or recommendations. Ask for a detailed proposal in writing. The ones who have the most professional approach are probably the ones who will do the most professional work. Don't just go for the low bid. If you don't want to piss anyone off, just be up front about the fact that you are looking for someone who can meet your unique needs. You could give the tradesmen you don't choose a courtesy call to let them know, but I wouldn't really worry about it. We give lots of proposals that don't turn into anything. It's part of the job. If anyone freaks out on you, would you have wanted to work with them anyway?
*Geez, while I was working on my diatribe it Mike and Gabe posted too. Looks like we're all saying the same thing though.
*If you are doing a big remodel the absolute worst mistake you can make is to get "bids". First off, there's no way for you, or anyone else, to spell out all the specifics before work starts. Therefore, the only bids you'll get will be so inflated to cover all the unforseen problems and changes, you'll end up paying WAY more than you should. And once you settle on a "price", you now start to think "okay, how much can I get for this price" while the contractor is thinking "okay, how much do I have to do to satisfy my obligations but maximize my profit". Diametrically opposed viewpoints that sooner or later will lead to an advearial relationship. Is that what you want? Find an honest contractor and hire him (or her) time and materials to get the job done. This will put you and that contractor on the same side of the table, working TOGETHER to give you the job you want at a fair price. This will also allow you to benefit from that contractor's years of experience, and make all the changes you want, which can only enhance the end result. Surely you don't think you know as much about remodeling as someone who has been doing it for years, right? Customers who get the best results remodeling, become a team with their builder and their architect - and I mean an architect, not just someone with a CAD program. A good architect brings an artistic gift to the table, just like a good builder brings a combination of artistic ability, practical experience, and a lot of grit.
*Kurt,If you changed only one letter in your name it would be the same as my brothers.You mention bidders. That suggests to me that you are intrested in the bottom dollar line rather than quality of work or a good relationship with the builder. Some here would suggest that you should forget about relationship but I think it is the best way to get good work out of people. Communications and understanding are everything when it comes to getting what you want. With some legalistic type guys the technical specs is the right way to communicate. The important thing is to find a remodeler, not a builder because there is a difference, who does good work and who communicates in a similar manner to yours. Otherwise something gets lost in the translation, you don't get what you want, and everybody ends up unhappy.The place to start is asking other folks who've had similar work done about the person they had do it. Look at other work if you can. Get recommendations. Then schedule a visit on site.If you call me for that first visit, and I agree to meet with you, I'll start by offering to show you a portfolio of my work to assure you that you are dealing with a quality remodeler. You might decline or not pay much attention to it. That tells me that you have already seen some of my work and have very likely come close to deciding that I am your man, especially if you move to showing me what you have in mind. I will explain to you that I am not the least expensive remodeler around because of the attention I give to quality and possibly cite some examples. I will explain that I do not "bid" jobs because there are dozens of ways to be the low bidder but the most expensive workman. I will ask if you have drawings done already or if you are intrested in retaining me to do the design work. If you have drawings already, I will look at them and ask intelligent questions that indicate my experience and intrest in the job. I might make suggestions that could improve the design, tactfully of course. I would want both you and your spouse present. This is absolutely essential! If I am to be expected to please both of you, I need to be able to read you both and let both of you get an impression of me. Three weeks after the project has begun is too late for either of us to find out that there are irreconcileable personality differences. A major remodel is very much like a menangetetrois sans sex. I will live in your home and disrupt your life style for as much as six months. Whether I use seven nails on a piece of casing or seventeen will be less important than whether I have respect for your personal habits and opinions and vice verse. I will not baby sit or groom your dog or cook your dinner, but I will keep my trash picked up and control the flow of dust and provide saftey protection as much as possible. I will return all your calls promptly and I expect you to pay all my bills in the same manner.Flexibility is important. There has never been a major remodel that did not call for changes, initiated by the owner, the site unknowns, or the contractor. That is why a bid is worth little except for comparison purposes.So sit down with a couple guys and see which ones that have good reputations seem to think and communicate somewhat like you do. The kind of strict adherance to govt specs like you describe is for large govt jobs where the price doubles, the paperwork wears you out, and no-one trusts anyone else so the specs have to dominate. Is that what you want?I have done jobs ranging from a seven thousand dollar kitchen to a $380,000 master bedroom suite, working with folks from retirees to investing mavens - satisfying them all to the best of my knowledge.
*Kurt--From a homeowner, who has done a number of additions, and recently GCed his last one (and it was a whopper!) -- Contractors prefer to have complete specs as Mike pointed out. It's worth the up-front time with a good qualified architect, who understands building (this is important - my very first architect I used was a part timer for residential, who did commercial as his day job. I used his specs to get quotes, but they all came in really high. It wasn't until about the 5th contractor (I kept looking, because the bids were too high) that he pointed out that I could land a helicopter on the foundation the architect speced (4000 psi rebar concrete) and that 3000 psi non-rebar would be more than adequate).Also, if you get so anal to spec for a contractor EXACTLY how to do his job, then you may get two things 1) contractors who simply don't bid because you'll seem like a primadonna, or 2) an expensive bid, as they build in extra expense or have to do the project in a way that they are not used to. Also remember someone's got to track every tiny little detail, and make sure it's done right? You (do you know what you are talking about) The architect? (can we say $$$?). So, make sure you understand why you are asking what you are asking for. Then, spec what is critical to you in clear language (for example, we wanted 4 1/2" flat casing for exterior window trim, and sills to match our old 2" true sills on existing), and realize that there is a wide, wide variety of expert "opinions" and there are some things which even the best builders disagree on. Find a builder you can trust and communicate with, someone you feel comfortable with and who you think is honest with you, and trust them to build it right. Don't be afraid to ask questions "Is tarring the foundation here sufficient?" but do it in a way that isn't acting like you're the expert -- unless you really are (that is, you've built it before).Finally, and this came in handy for me, if you have a lesser project and you aren't in a "do it tomorrow" mode - find a builder you like, and have them work on a lesser project around your house. You can learn a lot about their level of workmanship, their work ethic, and their business dealings. Through this method I learned that one builder I thought was honest was not, one carpenter I though was good was horrible, and then two other builders I found were honest, hard working, and even the type of people you'd want as neighbors.
*Kurt, you asked, i "what is a tactful way to deal with artists, AND NOT PISS THEM OFF?"Firstly you say to me, "Hello temperemental, unreliable artist type. I hear that you are quite famous and charge out the wazoo to support your artistic lifestyle of over-indulgence in alcohol, horizontal jogging in the manner of Ugandan negotiations, and a certain fondness for Colombian nose candy, etc, etc. Er, I'd like you to build me a table and chairs, if you have time and inclination that is, and also perhaps a few other sticks of furniture. Any design you like, and my wallet is bottomless." Acting all deferential and timid on your part goes down a treat with us arty-farty types.That'll set us off on a good footing, but don't phone me before 10 am. I'm cranky in the mornings after a hard nights partying. Phoning after 2 pm is usually, but not always, okay, but only if the AC is working as it should, and if that bleeding thing is not working right the first thing I do is call a builder I know, once I've sobered up that is! Slainte, RJ.
*Mike, I think the first six of us started typing at the same time. docket was empty when I first looked in at this one.
*yup!!!...I'd say Sgian Dubh is the man you're after!!
*Mark, I have to agree. Whoops. Better go. Recording studio party starts at midnight! I'll just make it if I'm quick. Slainte, RJ.
*The perpetual homeowner problem, how to get it done, right, well, pleasantly, all without spending more than necessary.While there's probably a 10 step process for this somewhere, I think that the advise above covers most bases, with absolutely no guarantee that it will work. Even the best laid plans, etc.If I could emphasize one point, ten years from now you won't be lying in bed thinking about how one sub left a mess behind, or how somebody was rude to your cat. You won't even think about the thousand dollars you paid that you aren't sure you should have paid. But you will think about the design error that you live with and see every day. And you will most definitely be thinking about infrastructure choices, whether it be the materials or installation, that held up to use and were always there when you needed them. Homeowners generally do not know quality. They know appearance well enough, but not quality. And shockingly, there's a lot of contractors that don't really know quality. They know what they are used to using, and they can tell you the good and bad within that framework, but if they don't do the type of work you are asking of them, they may not know that there is better (or worse) out there. So make sure you have someone at your side who knows what your goal is and knows the job. This can be an architect, and friend in the construction biz, and maybe even the GC (hey, it could happen), but use their professionalism and knowledge so that you make the best choices for you.SHG
*I think the LSD and Extacy (a.k.a. Frolic Acid) have finally made swiss cheese of your matter...
*Kurt,A few points of view from someone who always seems to be involved in a remodeling project...1. The fee the (right) GC makes is small relative to the cost incurred atempting to avoid the same. The time taken from your day job, your family, your wife's satisfaction, as well as that necessary to correct the inevitable mistakes is staggering. The costs to correct those issues overwhelms whatever benefits imagined.2. If you must stick your fingers in the project somewhere, do it in a manner in which you have competence. In my case, I realize that I'm good at painting and staining and very good at stonemasonry. I hire everything else out. I also have found that the best value the homeowner can offer is to serve as the backup for whenever someone falls down. Clean up the site, help keep the materials organized, go pick up that extra material across town that was misordered.3. Don't forget your spouse. Repeat, don't forget your spouse. Unless she is Joanne Liebler, most women hate the inevitable disarray that goes along with such a project. This will eventually manifest itself somewhere undesired. I solved this problem by hiring a Female G.C. She approached the project from an interior decorator's point of view (as well as my wife's) as well as incorporating my issues regarding architectual design and engineering. She came to clean up and transition from one trade to the other. What a relief! I no longer have to sleep on the couch!Best wishes.
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I would like some advice from those that have come before me. We have a large remodel ahead of us, and we will need the skills of multiple craftsmen. When obtaining a skilled worker, is it best to work up a semi-complete work order, submit it to a few select, prospective contractors, then try to make a decision about who to go with. Then after that decision is made, sit down and work the details...OR is it better to have a very detailed work order from the get go. We have some specific requests, all of which are flexible, but we don't want to overwhelm bidders. The second part of my question is, if we work out the specifics after a preliminary bid process, what is a tactful way to deal with artists, AND NOT PISS THEM OFF. Should I ask what building method they would use to accomplish our requests, and then get down to the details, or should we just list our wants...(i.e. We want to build solidly. Would it be better to just give specs, or ask them what they have done in the past.) Finally, should ALL the details be spelled out (ex. "8' x 4' x 56' of 3/4" crushed stone, compacted every 1 verticle ft, surrounded with filter fabric, with rigid perforated drain pipe covered with filter sock, surrounding foudation installed level with base of footing, sloped to daylight") or how much detail is necessary. Builders, help me out here. I don't want to make anyone mad, but at the same time, I want to be happy with what we get. I am also willing to adjust to a less retentive attitude.