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One of these questions that come along every couple years, in the gray area.
The home is 100 year old with original built in light fixtures. These are knob and tube types. No metal boxes. The wires just get pulled through a 90 degree porcelin tube and through a hole in the casings and ceiling trim. and hooked directly into the switch or light fixture. Push button switches, the whole shebang.
Here is the problem. I am working on a group of five(5)60w ceiling lights about 5 feet apart that are afixed to ceiling beams. The actual fixture screws onto a standard 3/8″ electrical pipe. One of the lights has lost its connection with the switch somewhere in the ceiling. I guess I could rip down the whole ceiling, including 100 year old quartersawn oak beams to fit a power wire. To add insult to the whole affair, If I open up the ceiling, I am required by law to pull a permit, and splices are not allowed inside the ceiling. I would have to run new thinwall, flex, or romex from the panel to the switch and each of the lights. All would have to be installed in boxes. This remodel could cost $5,000 in electrical, and ruin some beautiful oak in the process. So here are some practical alternatives, without a permit or inspector: (gulp!)
1. Pull some of the Crown molding down, and fish some lampcord from the light fixture inside some Crown Molding to a good fixture with a hot switched power source. I would do this by routing a channel for some 14-16 guage lamp cord to be run underneath and inside some crown between two the lights (one with a good switched power, and one without). I don’t think I can fit 14-2 Romex. Obviously must splice the lampcord between the fixtures, but no inside the ceiling. But it will be fricking lampcord. (gulp!)
2. Open up the plaster portions of the ceiling, and splice some 14-2 onto a good, hot switched line and fish it to the broken light, splicing the Romex into knob and tube in the ceiling.
3.?????
I really don’t even want to call the inspector on this one, as if he sees it, he may be a Dick and follow up on this. I guess the choice is a discreet lamp cord or bust out plaster and splice some romex. Both would involve splices, albet it one inside an existing ceiling, with one busting plaster and one not. One with fricking lamp cord and one with Romex.
I am really scratching my head on this one, and the whole concept of 16 ga lampcord is not appealing, but neither is busting out plaster and splicing romex inside a ceiling.
Any thoughts?
Replies
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Don't do it.
Don't even think about it.
Gabe
What's with you, you know better than to risk your family on a botched up electrical job.
*scooter... a good electrician can give you more options than you're thinking of..and the options will comply with code...he's got to be one of the good guys though....
*consider posting on the old house journal board. Some contractors and tradespersons there that don't post here.
*I suspect you could pull new romex from the fixture to the switch without too much damage. Holes can be drilled behind baseboard upstairs, behind crown downstairs, or through the wall of an adjacent room to gain access to your ceiling cavity. Some fish tape to pull wire and you're doing fine.Electricians do this all the time. And don't use lampcord.
*I'll pipe in and also say NO LAMP CORD! There are a lot of ways to fish wire and a few clever tricks and tools to do it with. A good residential wiring book will have some of the methods-take a look there too. You may need two fish tapes and a helper makes things a lot easier If there no access above the ceiling and you need to drill through a top plate between the ceiling joists to fish a wire you can do it from the basement. Make yourself an extension set for a bit using 1/8" black pipe and couplings. Just drill the first hole through the sole then start adding sections until you hit the top plate and drill again. It's crude but it works! It's easy to get confused as to where the walls are at when you are below them- if you can shoot a screw through the floor from upstairs it makes a nice reference mark.This can be a bear of a job but if you're willing to take the time and think things out you can probably do it. Like Mike said, someone with a lot of experience in this type of work will give you options you might not see right now.
*I feel your pain. My house was wired in a similar way when I bought it. Knob and tube, wires in old gas pipes, even found one lighting run done in bell wire. Took me over a month to rewire it. This book http://www.taunton.com/fh/features/techniques/28wiring.htm has some neat ideas. I would try to find the oldest electrician I could and pay him well for his advice. Let us know how it goes.But, NO FREAKIN' HIDDEN LAMP CORD! It's just too much of a fire hazardMike the idiot DIY guy
*Couple of electric forums you might tryhttp://www.electrician.com/wwwboard2_secure/wwwboard2.htmlhttp://www.elec-toolbox.com/frames.html
*The folks who have commented are right on - never use lamp cord and do get a good, qualified electrician who knows old homes. My house is 250 years old with plaster over brick for all the walls - interior and exterior.My electrician was a good ole country boy who really knew how to run wiring; we created some discreet chases, made narrow trenches in the plaster/masonry and a number of other tricks that all meet the code. It is well worth the money for a good, qualified electrician who relly knows old homes to do at least one job so you can get an idea how its done. If you want to do more on your own, pick the electrician's brain - a good one is more than willing to help - and a good one is very busy so he may be happy to give you some insights.
*This house is 100 yrs old, has original fixtures, and oak mouldings.....leave it with some dignity! Call in a local electrician. Some knob and tube can stay, some is a fire waiting to happen. Some old fixtures are beautiful, some are a fire waiting to happen. If lampcord is thought to be a possible solution, call in someone that knows the right way to do it. Houses are rewired everyday without destroying the plaster and mouldings. Time to up the budget and do it right. Jeff
*Thanks everyone for responding. I found some 14-2 in rubber sheathing, which is not much different from lamp cord, and only slightly larger, and at least the diameter of the wire is per code for lighting circuits. I can snake it through existing beams and make the connection. It is still a very illegal connection under the LA Building Code, which does not allow any splices inside sealed areas, so it had to be soldered, wire nutted and taped. Oh Well.
*Let me get this right... Now you're gonna use APPLIANCE CORD or EXTENSION CORD instead of lamp cord, and you're gonna BURY the splice? Don't expect concurrence here...Sorry, Steve
*Scooter, what's the flooring above? Also, why would you have to drop the beams?Could you drop a bay, and replaster? Or access from above?Rejuvenation Lighting has period fixtures... but I'd run either Romex/MX/ or THHN in thin-wall.3/8th inch is old gas-pipe... not electrial.Email me if you need more.
*No matter how well you make your "makeshift" repairs, the fact that your wiring failed in the first place is an indication that something is wrong. If the wiring is sealed up in the ceiling it is unlikely to have been damaged mechanically and that could indicate there is corrosion or some other insidious problem in your wiring system that could cause a fire. I would encourage you to look upon this as an opportunity to get some of the knob and tube wiring properly replaced. I am not being completely alarmist here, the Theater department where I went to college was given a beautifull old house for office space. The college was going to upgrade the knob and tube wiring (just an upgrade,there weren't any problems) but the house caught fire before they could fund the job, specificaly due to wires to a ceiling fixture in one of the bedrooms. Compared to the years and dollars it took to rebuild the house, the rewiring would have been cheap. Remember, when knob and tube wiring was "state of the art" people didn't use as much electricity as we do now.
*Did it ever occur to you that over the course of time, materials simply wear out? And the problems you've discovered with the light are simply a signal that the wiring has run it's useful course? That, coupled with the fact that no matter how nicely you solder, nut and tape it......it's still a splice? And now your splice is the strongest link of and old chain. An old chain that should be replaced with up to date materials, as opposed to patched in the easiest way. I surely hope this is your own home, and you aren't telling an innocent bystander that this is a safe solution. Don't forget to disclose this DIY repair when you sell. Jeff
*Should have warned ya Scooter-pretty rough crowd sometimes at the other board you posted to!
*I've seen some really nice historical retrofits using surface mounted conduit. It may not sound as nice as you like, but it is common practice in applications where heritage walls and trim need to be preserved. Good craftsmanship and even nice quality brass conduit can be made to look like it was meant to be. Check out some of the 'heritage' hardware suppliers in your area for nice conduit supplies. Many of these are made to look like the surface mount gas lines people were retrofitting to gas with a century and a half ago.The upsides are safety, ease of installation and maintenance in the future.
*Scooter those cats were a little rude over there at electrician.com, but that is not normally the case. That forum and elect-toolbox are invaluable. If you read through there, though, you see that there are some real idiots trying to burn their houses down. Like that guy with 2 tons of crap on his VW. I'd still like to find a plumbing site where they are as helpful as those electricians.
*Please....Please....Please....Don't even consider the lamp cord or the appliance cord for this. You have to take into account other residents of the house as well...specifically mice...They can chew a lamp cord through in about 10 seconds. The resulting BBQ/house fire would really be a disaster.Find a qualified electrician and a really good woodworker. The woodworker can deal with the oak and fix it so you never know where he did it. Old houses are a challenge and require some clever fixes. Clever not dangerous.Will
*What plumbimg sites have you tried?
*I looked at all of them and it seemed that if it got beyond a housewife trying to fix a faucet drip, those guys got real defensive. I don't need some dork telling me to hire a plumber, just sometimes need a little help deciphering the codes.
*Know and tude wiring is not that bad by design, but over the years attic get decked, insulated, and muddled with. This can wreak havoic with knob and tube, but the biggest cause of failure is our modern power consumption. People pull such large currents thru these system that were not design for such duty. Fuses over the years get larger, and the add current= added heat= Failure. REPLACE THE WIRING!!!! It is much cheaper than replacing you Family.David
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One of these questions that come along every couple years, in the gray area.
The home is 100 year old with original built in light fixtures. These are knob and tube types. No metal boxes. The wires just get pulled through a 90 degree porcelin tube and through a hole in the casings and ceiling trim. and hooked directly into the switch or light fixture. Push button switches, the whole shebang.
Here is the problem. I am working on a group of five(5)60w ceiling lights about 5 feet apart that are afixed to ceiling beams. The actual fixture screws onto a standard 3/8" electrical pipe. One of the lights has lost its connection with the switch somewhere in the ceiling. I guess I could rip down the whole ceiling, including 100 year old quartersawn oak beams to fit a power wire. To add insult to the whole affair, If I open up the ceiling, I am required by law to pull a permit, and splices are not allowed inside the ceiling. I would have to run new thinwall, flex, or romex from the panel to the switch and each of the lights. All would have to be installed in boxes. This remodel could cost $5,000 in electrical, and ruin some beautiful oak in the process. So here are some practical alternatives, without a permit or inspector: (gulp!)
1. Pull some of the Crown molding down, and fish some lampcord from the light fixture inside some Crown Molding to a good fixture with a hot switched power source. I would do this by routing a channel for some 14-16 guage lamp cord to be run underneath and inside some crown between two the lights (one with a good switched power, and one without). I don't think I can fit 14-2 Romex. Obviously must splice the lampcord between the fixtures, but no inside the ceiling. But it will be fricking lampcord. (gulp!)
2. Open up the plaster portions of the ceiling, and splice some 14-2 onto a good, hot switched line and fish it to the broken light, splicing the Romex into knob and tube in the ceiling.
3.?????
I really don't even want to call the inspector on this one, as if he sees it, he may be a Dick and follow up on this. I guess the choice is a discreet lamp cord or bust out plaster and splice some romex. Both would involve splices, albet it one inside an existing ceiling, with one busting plaster and one not. One with fricking lamp cord and one with Romex.
I am really scratching my head on this one, and the whole concept of 16 ga lampcord is not appealing, but neither is busting out plaster and splicing romex inside a ceiling.
Any thoughts?