Our water pump keeps kicking on for a couple seconds then shuts off for 30 seconds to a minute before coming on again. Before I dig up the yard, are there other things I should try?
We are on a well system out in a rural area. Yesterday we had 3 vertical wells dug for a geothermal heating system. Had them drilled in a place we were ‘pretty sure’ there were no utilities. During the process, they ran water for about 3 hours.
After they left, I noticed the pump kept turning on and off even though we were no longer using water. We had an overnight trip planned, so I pulled the fuses to the pump and prayed that the plumbing elves might fix the problem while we were gone.
Back home again, stuck the fuses back in and no change. I called the previous homeowner and she wasn’t aware of any water lines in the area I was talking about either. I shut off the water to the house and no difference, so the line isn’t coming from the house or there isn’t something inside the house that’s on that I didn’t know about.
To me, the most likely thing is they hit a water line I didn’t know existed. But there’s also the fact that they ran water continuously for 3 hours. Wonder if this might have put some stress on something else and caused a problem elsewhere.
Suggestions?
Replies
You lost the head. IOW well is no longer a well, just a dry hole where the water used to be..they drilled beyond the depth I'd say and all the water headed that way and filled to the aquifer level.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Not sure I follow. We still have water to the house and the yard hydrants, so I'd have to say our well is still a well. The pump seems to bring up the pressure to the point where it shuts off, but after a minute or so, it comes back on again.
There should be a shutoff valve on the exit out of the pressure tank, feeding the house. Shut that off and see if you still lose pressure. If you do then likely the check valve (possibly at the foot of the well) has failed.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Yeah, I thought of that too, but there's no shutoff at the tank. Probably would have cost a few more cents to put one in.
This is gonna be interesting.
InOvr didn't say he was out of water, which was your scenario. And a very scary one.
"on for a couple seconds then shuts off for 30 seconds to a minute before coming on again"
Rapid cycle off is done with a switch obviously, question is if there's more than just a pressure switch. Does sound like an overheating problem, which would certainly be caused by pumping air, but he didn't say there was air. And the pump should be able to pump air for more than a couple of seconds before overheating. A low pressure cut-off switch would do that. Which is what I'd look for. Sometimes on the pressure switch.
InOvr, even if they hit a water line, the pressure switch wouldn't act like that. Was Sphere's assumption of you pumping air correct?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Ah, yes! If it just comes on for a couple of seconds at a time then likely the pressure tank probably has lost its charge, and possibly (if a "captured air" tank) ruptured its bladder.There should be a pressure gage on the system. Observing that will tell if it's a switch problem or a tank problem. If the pressure isn't swinging much then it's likely a switch problem, but if it needle swings wildly then it's a bad tank charge.It could be the pump overheating, but this is unlikely if the system is still delivering water. My money's on a bad tank.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
This will add a new wrinkle, but since you asked about the pressure switch ...We were having a problem with the pressure switch before all this happened. After using water in the house, rather than the pump staying on for several seconds then being off, it would cycle on and off about 14 times in rapid succession before remaining off.Pulling the fuses and putting them back in seems to actually have cured that part of the problem. Now the pump stays on for several seconds and shuts off for a period of time before coming back on. I am not noticing any loss of water pressure in the house. It just acts like there is a leak or running faucet somewhere.
This still sounds like a problem with the tank charge, possibly in combo with a "minor" leak somewhere (eg, a toilet that "runs" slightly).
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
I read everything at least twice and did not see what kind of pump you had. Is it submersible or jet pump? Where is tank and pressure switches and well located? There should be shutoffs for various water lines leaving the tank area.
Sounds like you have a captured air tank or pressure switch problem. Dumb little switches are only about $20. Change it out and check your tank precharge. Isolate any lines, taps etc, makes sure there are no leaks.
If there are no shutoffs to outside lines now is a good time to add them.
It's a submersible pump. It's an old hand-dug well about 200 feet from the house. The tank is located in a shallow pit out by the well. I can try replacing the switch tomorrow. Is there a way to tell if a tank has lost its charge?
Turn off the pump, relieve pressure (not the air part but open a water line and let water pressure off), There should be a schrader valve (tire valve) on top, there should also be a decal telling you that the pressure should be 2 psi below pressure switch cut-in. I adjusted mine to cut in at 45 and off at 60 because I have some pretty long runs from the tank to some fixtures.
I would wait till I replaced the p-switch and check it. I would consider putting a new pressure gauge on when changing the switch. Since that pressure differential is only 2# any error in the gauge will be sort of critical. You check it with a tire pressure gauge so any difference between the two will have some effect.
I am not a plumber but do have a 185' well with setup like yours and did plumb my house although I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Bob
Edited 11/26/2006 7:31 pm ET by rasconc
"Turn off the pump, relieve pressure (not the air part but open a water line and let water pressure off), There should be a schrader valve (tire valve) on top, there should also be a decal telling you that the pressure should be 2 psi below pressure switch cut-in. "That is for a bladder tank.Not for an air over water tank.Don't remember how to set those.
You are correct as usual. Does anyone still sell ones without a bladder? I did tell him to look for the instructions on the tank.
IIRC you just drained the tank of water and let it pressurize as it fills. Sort of like the water hammer deals. But I would check further if I had one. But then if I did I would replace it.
I had one that did similar thing. It was presure tank with out a bladder.
The problem was that the tank was water logged. What happens is that if you get an air leak near the top of the tank The air head gets out of the tank so that it is mostly full of water. Then the pressure in the tank changes very rapidlywhen a valve is opened or when the pump comes on as there is nothing there to compress. This causes the pressure switch & then pump to cycle on and off.
What needs to be done is to drain the water level in the tank down while letting air into the top of the tank. Then close tank up tight and turn on the pump. With the full tank of air it will take a normal cycle fot incoming water to compress the air and shut off the pressure switch.
BTW if you don't have a way to drain the tank the alternate way is as follows:
Shut off pump
Open a cold valve in the house (or outside as this may stir up rust).
Hook an air line to the Shrader valve ( it should be on the same fitting as the pressure switch)
Blow the water out of the tank thru the open water valve. Keep going untill you get air out the water valve.
It would probably be a good idea to replace ihe Shrader insert. Then close up system before turning pump back on. For some systems the well people will have you put enough air in the tank that it has 30-40 psi before turning on the pump. That need seems to be related to tank size relative to pump flow rate.
Edited 11/26/2006 8:49 pm ET by jimcco
When no bladder, just drain tank and let it fill with air, then turn water back on.
The full air load compresses , and over time, more and more air becomes dissolved in the water at bottom of tank so it is a regular process. I rented at a house where we had to drain the pressure tank about every three months.Which is why they invented baladders, to isolaate air and water for thirty yeaars instead of thirty days. 'Course, when they go out, time to replace the tank.
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I second the possibility of a bad foot valve (ie. backflow valve). I had one years ago that did it. Cycled as you describe. Well guy pulled the pump and added a new backflow valve.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Pulling the fuses and putting them back in seems to actually have cured that part of the problem. Now the pump stays on for several seconds and shuts off for a period of time before coming back on.
Very strange... I'm wondering if you might have an electric supply problem. Measuring pressure switch voltage while it's cycling will tell.
I've never seen tank problems cause your symptoms. And a leakdown back into the well shouldn't either. Something's cutting off your pump. It's a switch, or an open.
Is there a separate switch at the pressure switch to disconnect if low pressure occurs?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Very strange... I'm wondering if you might have an electric supply problem"Ooops, this could be expensive -
One thing I see here several times is that the wires at the bottom with a submersabel get chaffed. The switch calls for water and turns the pump on.
The pump cycles on and torgues around just far enough to make the wires contact the casing, lose current, and untorque. But since the switch is still calling for water, the current ssupply iss back on, the pump torques, and twists to make contct.........
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One thing I see here several times is that the wires at the bottom with a submersabel get chaffed.
Yup, that's one possibility. A problem with supply to the pressure switch is another. A voltage check at the pressure switch during the cycling will explain a lot. And we still don't know what the wiring is.
If it's all corrected with a new bladder pressure tank I'll be very surprised.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've replaced both the tank and the pressure switch. The tank definitely needed it. I can't say absolutely this cleared up the problem, but think it will eventually. The pump stays on for a reasonable amount of time to fill up the tank and the pressure is good. The only problem I see is the worthless plumber (me), didn't get all the connections tight enough and there's a slow leak in one or more of the joints. Hence, the pump is still coming on when we're not using water. I hope to get off work early enough to crawl down in the pit while it's still daylight and snug everything up.
Happy for you.
I believe your switch was shot, or had a loose wire. Shot wouldn't be surprising when the tank wasn't doing its job. Had to turn on every time you opened a faucet for a short time.
Suggestion: keep a spare switch on hand. I even keep a spare pump. Doing the connections is how you learn what works. The joys of homeownership... BTW, pulling a pump really isn't all that difficult either. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Spare switch is good idea! Damp well pits and crawl spaces are known as job security in the biz. Submersible pump companies recommend a minute of run time when a pump kicks on, this is to pass enough water by the motor to cool it. Your pump motor will last longer if you can get close to this as a minumum run time.
No foot valve with a sub pump! You had lost the air charge and had a small leak somewhere - possibly a running water closet, fitting (as you now have), the tank, which you noted was leaking, or in the well piping or connections. loss of air will create extreme short-cycling of the pump and cause high electric consumption. Your pressure switch was functioning properly and you had adequate voltage.
A check-valve installed on the INLET side of the tank-T is always a good investment.
The minimum run time you want for any submersible pump is one minute. Proper sizing of the tank will ensure this happens. You'll need to know your pump's performance curve to size the tank properly. The reasons are two-fiold: this grants a longer life for the pump motor; and helps keep the electric bill as low as possible. Extended run-times can be achieved too by installing oversized pump-tank(s), but the well's capacity for recovery is an important consideration. The grouting/flushing process for the GSHP bore-holes ran for a long period, but how hard they ran water is more of an issue for drawing down the well. In either case, your conditiion is not their fault.
When it comes time to replace the pump, you may want to consider upgrading to a constant-pressure variable-speed model, which will eliminate the expansion tank issues. The pit is not a great place for pressure switches and electrical contacts unless housed in water-proof boxes. No reason why that shouldn't be in the house & in the dry.
You had mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you didn't think the tank solved the entire problem. Here's your chance to say 'told you so.'I've got everything snugged up and the pump still comes on every 5 minutes or so. Had an ice storm last week so haven't been able to do much. Power was out 9 hours and internet service for 3 days.At my father-in-laws suggestions, we're going to install a shutoff so that we can determine whether the water is leaking into the yard somewhere or back down into the well. Thanks again for your suggestions.
Here's your chance to say 'told you so.'
I'll pass. My first post said this was going to be interesting. I'm here to learn.
I've experienced failed tanks, never saw your symptoms. One thing you haven't done, apparently, is that voltage check during short cycling. Now that your cycling is 5 minute intervals, very different situation. Maybe you do (also) have that leak you first postulated.
BTW, a volt ohm meter from Radio Shack is maybe 10 bucks. I picked up a handful from a Harbor Freight store recently for $3/ea. They work pretty well until you bounce them. Doesn't take much of a meter to determine a lot.
Oh, thought about Pif's scenario and concluded it shouldn't give your original symptoms. But I've been wrong before.
At least you're finally getting all the problems tracked down. And an education, whether you wanted one or not. <G>
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
my vote is you've lost your air charge in the tank.with mine i drain all the water out of tank.if pressure swith is set to kick on at 35 psi,i air the tank to 31 psi.try that before getting to involved in more serios stuff. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
A pressure switch has high and low limits. They are adjustable. When they are too lose together, the pump will cycle as you describe. High limit set higher will let the pumpo run longer while low limt set lower will make it come on sooner.
A worn out switch will be eratic. a full pressure tank can simulate this problem but n ot to th edegree you describe, I don't think. I've dealt with this 3-4 times, but all more thaan 8 or ten yers ago. There is a small box about 2-1/2" cubed near the pressure tank and incoming supply line. There are wires leading into it.Pull the fuses first, then take the cover off the box.
You should see adjustment screws like mini dials in there to play with.
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To me, there are a couple of possibilities: pressure switch or foot valve.
Smack the pressure switch with the handle of a screwdriver a couple of times; that sometimes helps.
Depending on where your pressure gauge and isolation valves are, you might be able to shut the water off, see if the pressure in the line to the well drops off...which might mean a bad check valve.
"Smack the pressure switch with the handle of a screwdriver a couple of times; that sometimes helps. "LOL, yeah, that can rattle the spiders and convince them to build dnests someplace else - no joke, I've seen those boxes packed full of spider eggs or whatever. God blast of compressed air to get themm cleaned out and things working fine.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not that familiar with wells, but I believe there is a pressure vessel to maintain pressure when the pump kicks on and off. If you do have a pressure vessel it has to have a check valve on it. Otherwise once pressure is reached, the water will backflow and cause symptoms like you describe.
Maybe in running water for so long a chunk of something may have gotten hung up in the check valve and stuck it in the open position. It would'nt take much at all to defeat the check valve.
Don't look for trouble! Turn off electric to pump,turn on water until it stops running at a faucet. Shake pressure tank if it's heavy and feels like it still has water in it, hook air hose to snifter or thing that looks like tire valve. If its a bladder tank add air until it has two pounds less than low number on switch [most switches say 30/50 or 40/60 on the outside or inside the cover]. If the air you put in comes out at the faucet,the bladder has a hole in it. Bladderless tank, use air to force water out, once you get air coming out shut off valve between tank and house if it has one. Put maybe five pounds air in tank, checking with tire gauge, let it set ten minutes check it again if its still on five turn the electric on and see how it acts. If the pressure has bleed off, its either a bad checkvalve on top of the pump, or a leak in the lines or fittings that go to the pump. BE CAREFUL ADDING AIR TO A RUSTED TANK IT MIGHT BLOW!!! The idea is to establish if the tank is okay before diagnosing other problems.
My guess is that you have a stuck or partially blocked check or foot valve. It sounds as if the pressure is bleeding off slowly. I once had a jet pump that developed a hairline crack in the pressure side of the venturi of the jet casting, the crack would only open at about 50 lbs. pressure on a system that used a 60 lb. kick off pressure switch . Pure luck that I noticed sediment being disturbed by the leak and was able to watch the cycle of bleed down , pump on , etc.
Any air in your lines will leak past seals that will contain water and create the same effect. Bleed all your lines to purge air for starters. Most pressure switches are adjustable as well , they use simple points like old automotive points that can burn , arc etc. Normally instructions are printed inside the top cover.. TURN OFF THE POWER
Turns out the tank rusted through and was leaking. Seems kind of odd to me that this happened the same time we were getting the geothermal wells drilled.Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. Had I not checked out the well itself, I'd probably still be digging in the yard looking for a non-existant water line.
You did say that they ran the water for three hours. It could be that the tank was right on the edge of starting to leak, and that three hours of hard use pushed it over.
-- J.S.
Yeah, that would be my thought. The repeated cycling stressed the tank to the breaking point.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
I think he said they test pumped the new well for three hours, common practice helps the water clear up.
EVERYONE KNOWS, SPEND SOME MONEY ON YOUR HOUSE, THEN SOMETHING WILL BRAKE DOWN.
Not sure who's law this is?
Used dog food happens!
I'm guessing they used a lot of water in the drilling process.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck