I have just found an email from a lurker here with a Q that I think we have discussed before under a different heading, but a good one and worth re-hashing.
This is a guy who uses Auto cad since 88 and is designing homes for Habitat. Here is the substance of his request quoted below…I will make my first reply in the second post
“I got to wondering recently as I worked on this latest houseplan, just what kinds of things would make the guys in the field’s job easier. One thing I do is to throw in a diagonal corner-to-corner
dimension on my foundation plans for use in squaring up the foundation forms. I always dimension my plans centerline-to-centerline of interior walls, and to the exterior face of studs at the
exterior walls. I would just like to get some feedback from an experienced home designer what kinds of things would be appreciated by builders in the field, and what kinds of things are best left
undone. I you would care to offer your opinion, I would appreciate it.
(For your information, my background is somewhat the same as that of Boss Hogg. I worked for about ten years as head of the drafting department for a companyh that pre-fabricated wood roof trusses
and wall panels. In more recent years I have been involved in estimating for a pre-engineered metal building company. I an an AutoCAD driver when I draw, going back to about 1988 or so.)
“
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I think this is an interesting Q especially in light of the work for Habitat, assuming less professional or less experienced carpenters.
One of the first thoughts I would normally have on this topic is to ask the guys in charge of the crew what they want to see.
But somebody who doesn't do a lot of framing might have no idea.
I like to set my CAD to dimension to edge of plate rather than center of plate. A carpenter is not going to lay down a chaulk line in the center of the wall and then hide it where it won't help him build a straight wall. He has to mark back 1-3/4" each time he marks for an interior wall. That makes for too much possibility of human error on site.
I can imagine the guy or one guy and his helper at the other end, each making tick marks in opposite directions from the center dimension. Or forgetting to offset at one end, or misreading a tape in the case of a newbie.
I'm sure I'll come up with more, meanwhile you can all pile in with what you like to see on plansets.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Window sill heights, floor coverings...http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Yes, good stuff to show in elevations.
Need to know floors for stairs and if dimension is needed for tile underlayment.When can lights are used, the framing in that plane needs to be specified to co-incide with lighting scheme.
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<When can lights are used, the framing in that plane needs to be specified to co-incide with lighting scheme.>That's what my electrician keeps telling me, ha!http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
The plumber probably wants you to avoid placing joists where his 3" waste line catches up to the toilet too.
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Just caught this thread so I will add my 2 sinkers or so to the mix. 1) Give me one page of foundation, each floor, and elevation with framing dimensions on it, eliminating any and all notes concerning lighting, plumbing or anything else that doesn't actually have to do with framing. Then make sure that they match floor to floor! (This should be much easier in layered auto cad then in the old days of hand drawn sheets) Loved the idea of diagonals for foundation being put on prints during the design stage.
2) Keep dimensions consistent in terms of which face of a wall is the string being taken from and to. This stuff of starting at one face and switching back and forth as the string goes across a building drives me nuts. (Also just caused a major screw up on my current job because an error was made on the prints and not caught by we in the field until the work had actually been done, nothing like having stocked windows be off by 2" from floor to floor).
3) When changes are made during design PLEASE insure the changes are made to all the layers and remove all old notes before printing the sheets!! Now as for the relationships between Architect(Designer) and the contractor.
I have spent almost all my contracting career (40 yrs.)working on one of a kind structures and have learned that sometimes the rapport between the two just isn't going to happen.
I love being included in the "Process" of the birth of a building, but I have also learned through some major screw ups on my part that I can ruin a good design because I didn't ask the archy/designer what they were trying to achieve.
Finally PLEASE keep your design within budget constraints. DO NOT ASSUME (as a recent Architect I worked under said) " People always have more money than they say they do". They don't!!!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I got my start in the construction business as structural steel detailer, working part time while going to school. It was customary to use/show accumulative dimensions or running totals. This allowed the layout guy to hook his tape at one end of the steel member and layout/mark the location of the various holes to be punched without adding up individual dimensions or measuring from point to point which can generate significant errors. Now all of this is computerized and automated.
However from time to time when I feel that it would be helpful and appropriate, I use this method in addition to my standard dimensioning. Hook your tape on the edge of the slab/floor framing and mark at the accumulative dimensions shown. Just make sure that the foundation etc. is accurate and square. This can eliminate a lot of on site calculations and subsequent errors. It can also be helpful for laying out a complicated foundation that has a lot of offsets etc.
Hope this can help. HFH is a very good cause. I volunteer thru my church, but I am so dxxx old, that I not worth much on the site anymore. Can still nail up corners, bucks and tees.
oops - I like the idea of cumulative dimensioning. Now that I think of it, I do it that way in my notes when I measure existing conditions... so it makes sense for everything else, too. Would you also use a running dim for say, window/door openings CL to CL?
It depends. If all of the window and doors are on a single plane and all of the windows and doors are in one space or room, I suppose it could be helpful. However, if there are offsets and the doors and windows are in individual room I don't think it would be helpful. In these cases I just dimension to the center line of the openings to the point where the plane changes.
I find that these types of dimensions are most useful in setting up a foundation and when laying out the walls on the foundation . As the old saying goes. Sometimes too much of a good thing can be bad. Too much info. can be confusing and just clutter up your drawings. I generally use this only on the exterior dimensions where there are changes in the exterior configuration and sometimes on the interior on large structures for major demising walls/partitions etc.. It's a tool not a crutch. Good Luck.
PS I show these dimensions from both directions. Both coming and going as it were. I wish I were more computer savvy so I could show you what I'm talking about. I still have graphite under my fingernails. If this does not make sense, e-mail me your fax # and I will send you an example of what I'm talking about.
details & notes pages in size 12 font or bigger.
space between each note (ala Jeff Buck posting style)
I'll think of more
My first thought in reading your post was that I don't answer questions that people email me with.
That's what BT is for - So they can be posted here.
I am most often the same.But this was a very nicely composed polite introduction and background filled in later that this particular HFH home is for a family of a retired serviceman who has taken in other children who have been abused. I think they are up to 14 kids in the family now.A life of serving his country and now serving the next gen...I'm gonna do all I can to help.Plus, it is a good topic, even if I did mis-spell in the title How ...instead of Hiw
;)So I replied to him about my reasons for posting it here, primarily that more minds make for more suggestions.
Normnally my first thought on this Q is to ask the crews that work the area, but this will be built with more inexperienced help.
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I see your point - I didn't realize that was why you posted it. I agree with what you said about NOT dimensioning to the center of a wall. I find that really annoying. A note saying something like "All dimensions are stud to stud" is helpful. Otherwise you don't know if they're dimensioning to drywall, plywood, or what.
Was today really necessary?
Good point about notes.
I've been designing exclusively for my own crew for ten years, but working for others means I need to be more explicit.
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Often when I design/build I dimension and print out the floorplans and elevations showing the framing only. For me this is in part because there may be a wide lapse in time between when I designed it and when I actually go to frame it and I want to stay accurate with what I designed and bid on. I don't forget which header I specified where or where I wanted to add blocking.
Also, since I most often work solo, it helps to speed things up since I can simply cut all the pieces exactly from the print; no more trial and error of rafters or gable walls...even less moving of lumber since I know exactly how many sticks I need when I go to the lumber pile. The results are amazing and everything fits together much tighter, and if it doesn't fit tight then it clues me in that something else is off, out of square, not level, not plumb.
The cost cutting capabilities alone has paid for the program and time spent designing ten times over.
DC
Good thought. I can make detailed frame drawings in SP and it produces a cut list too,but I have never used that, because of the way we do things in the field, but it could be a help for a HFH project. I don't know if his version of ACAD is that capable or not.
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What I put on prints is almost entirely determined by what the customer wants. For example:
Builder A may want nothing there that doesn't help him get a permit, thus leaving plenty of wiggle room during later phases.
Client B wants everything down to cripples & blocking for the paper towl roll so that complete cut lists can be made by a relative rookie using the prints.
Some want things graphically presented as simplified symbols, while others would rather have a photorealistic image.
In general, I try not to over-detail things unless there's a useful reason. I'm careful to hold down duplication of information within or across sheets unless those sheets will be used by different disciplines or at different times. For example, I don't want the sparkys to necessarily need access to framing drawings to bid their part, but I damn sure don't want to make a change to one and forget to carry it across to the other.
I seldom dimension to centerlines of interior frame walls because hardly any framers lay them out that way, and cutting down on field calculations is a simple quality step to minimize error. If I feel a need to do some dimensions that way (like certain load points or a wall whose thickness will for some reason be determined later), I try to make those dimensions stand out from the rest -- off in a different string, etc.
I don't dimension or reference anything that doesn't need it -- I look at unnecessary annotation as trying to impose my opinion on other trades for no particular reason. Plus, it's always good to keep the prints as simple & clean as will communicate design intent. There are simply times when the crew knows better than me exactly where something needs to go; and you don't want one trade ignoring a dimension while another tries to follow it.
And always (well, in theory), larger scale drawings supercede smaller scale drawings. So don't put something on large-scale details or sections unless you damn well mean it.
That's all I got, at least until the coffee hits.
}}}}
You mentioned scales on drawings, and that made me think of something.I ahte it when I get plans on 11X17 or 8.5X11 paper that says "1/4" scale" when I know danged good and well it's nowhere NEAR that scale. There's nothing wrong with smaller drawings, IMHO. I just wish people would take the scale off when they print on smaller paper.
Be quick to learn and wise to know. [George Burns]
Good point. Sometimes you can't control how others print your drawings, so a graphic scale can be a good thing. I should probably include those more often than I do. Still, it's a problem when a carpenter is trying to scale with his tape measure on a set of prints that someone printed "scaled to fit" on paper of their choice.
Re small prints: I'll break with graphic standards if necessary to squeeze a house onto a smaller sheet set. I always hated having to flail around with too-big sheets back when I was bangin' nails.
}}}}
I'm glad I found this thread. While my name says "almost" I can now say I am a registered architect. But to the subject at hand, I have always been concerned with what I include on my drawings. I have worked with other architects who detail the h*ll out of things that do not require it, yet ignore the more important aspects like dimensions. I am not a contractor, framer, plumber, etc. Unlike a lot of hot air architects, I totally respect their expertise, and would love to sit down with all of the above and go over a typical set of residential drawings. What works, what doesn't work, what is simply ignored, and yes - what is laughed at. I don't want to waste my time, the trades' time, or the client's money by drawing/detailing something that isn't necessary. Dimensioning is a personal pet peeve with me, so I'm curious about one method I've seen - a grid. No dims from wall to wall, no dims showing wall thicknesses, just a grid on a module (say, 8' or whatever). While this cleans up the appearance of drawings, I'm just curious what happens in the field. Are more dims better? What's helpful, what isn't?
You definitely want to shown clear dimns on anything important.
Think of hierarchy of dims too. Here is what I mean on that. I do a lot of reno and addition to old structures, so you can run into out of square or off plumb. That means hat you need the note that says verify dims in field, and only show the most important ones where a conflict might arise. For instance if windows need to stack on multiple floors in elevation, indicate it with a note also, or placement of stairs and dim from center of a hallway in others.I dimension openings from centerline and indicate RO most of the time.I applaud your desire to work WITH the trades. Some of us are jerks and idiots, but most return respect shown. In CO, I worked on a hospital addition and remember the archy there who asked each of the subs and trades men for opinions on detailing and how to correct. I think he knew most of the answers ahead of time so his apparent curiosity was in some degree a test, but he also listened and approved recommendations by subs when it was good stuff. We all learned from each other and the client was better off from his method of managing things
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Not exactly architecture, but since the architect puts the whole package together it applies. I've been told after the fact several times by an engineer that element X was the most critical part of the design. Not that we don't follow all the details but it seems logical that if there is a critical detail it would be nice the know so extra care could be taken.I've also received architectural plans with all of his standard details included. Some don't even apply to the job and I've spent plenty of time trying to figure out where they did apply. It would be nice to edit those out.You will also see an architect detail what he believes will be a structural detail and then the engineering drawings will show a difference. Or the engineer will include an architectural element that is different than the architect intended. I know which takes precedence but it seems logical that the two sets should show identical information. I believe it's the architects' job to proof read all this stuff, since he is putting the package together.The engineering drawing, particularly the foundation plan, should include dimensions so there is not constant flipping back and forth between the engineering and architectural set. The best sets I've seen take the arch drawings, print them faintly, and then draw the engineering on top. Then all the beams, etc. make sense without a lot of flipping, the number one cause of the trashed field set.Those are my pet peeves. If I get really worked up. maybe I can think of more.John
1. Don't hide info in the general notes. When one of my guys is just starting to read plans I tell them #1 read all the pages because something's going to be hidden in there-Adding a note in the detail pages would be nice.
2. I hate center of wall dims. I see it more in remodel, almost never in new construdtion.
3. My framing bids say "Any details vague and/or unclear are not included in bid" This usually is a conversation starter and I explain that if one of my 2nds can't look at "Art Niche" and see diminsions, note for a detail page, or something that spells out what is wanted then it is obviously not in the bid as there was no way of knowing what was needed.
4. Having to add up 8 small dims to get a number between walls sucks. Most plans have two sets, staggered, and some times it gets too busy, but it still sucks to have to break out a calculator just to find the length of the house!
5. Give options for hardware. In the NW we have mass clips and straps etc. It is not uncommon to have to put an A35 or LPT50 every 6 inches. Someplans note that if plywood breaks in a certain fashion clips not needed. Let the guys who know how to build leave off with the details added to cover substandard practices...oops, guess that's engineering
6. If you're going to change up headers, don't make us look through all the s and d pages, put them at the window openings. If most are the same, make a note on the floor pages...there I go again, engineering .
7. I could go on and on, and in honesty most plans I get are pretty good...I'll end with this. If you are going to have all the specs on the plan, don't put them all on one page. I've seen floor pages with all sorts of specs, wall framing, joist lo all together, what a mess.
Great comments there.In my remo work, I use A-35's by the case.
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You can never have enough A35's, lol. I put them up every where new construction codes call for them whether they are called or not just because the inspectors like them and thus assume you know what you are doing.
It amazes me how comparably lax insp can be on remodel compared to new. On new they pore over the plans to make sure they know what's going on, but rehab they seem to just give the quick once over...some times they don't even look at my plans!
Mayb that's because of our overkill as I hate reinspections....
Thanks again for all the great info!Here's another couple for you. When drawing, I always wonder what type face is easiest to read. I've used the font that looks like hand lettering, Arial, Times Roman, etc. What's the preference? Oh, and size, too. I've seen drawings with lettering so friggin' small that you would need a Cracker Jacks magnifying glass to read it!And organizing the sheets - does it matter if the detail numbering starts in the upper left corner and runs top to bottom in columns? Or left to right in rows? I figure it probably doesn't matter, so long as the cross referencing is corrent (not to mention the detail itself).
Lettering depends I suppose on the size of the plan...I personally don't like 8 x 11 sheets. I would rather have the plan emailed to me and then I will pay to have my printer blow it up. A nice thing some of the truss companies used to do was send out truss lay outs laminated, very cool for the NW climate.
MOST PLANS I GET HAVE THIS KIND OF FONT, LOL.
Detail pages should be left to right just the way you read a book in my humble opinion.
Somebody mentioned unused details, mostly engineering in my experience. It would be nice if they covered up the ones not in use as I have seen on a rare occasion. Most of the engineering pages seem to be from some program that has all the common specs on them. I just pay attention to the callouts on the plan and ignore the rest.
I guess the one piece of information I love to get is field verify. Big warning sign. Much better than a bunch of info that is incorect that I have to figure out on the fly that I didn't include in my bid not to mention the change in materials, my guys waiting me to be boy genuis with my construction calc, just the general disruption of flow when I could of figure out much of it beforehand.
Almostarchitect,What phase of being an architect are you? I am familiar with the term "licensed architect" but not "registered architect". If you are licensed then you should have about 5600 hrs. of professional practice to draw experience from. In my experience, issues involving lineweights, dimensioning standards, title blocks, and type face are all unchanging and preset as determined by your mentors years of experience. I had most of the questions you are asking answered in my first drafting class in community college. Are you an "architect" or a "designer". I don't mean to bust any chops, but as a builder, I have a severe dislike towards architects. I always assumed they just felt they were better (smarter) than us because they have a degree. Most have a decent ability to talk up a homeowner but know nothing of the nuts and bolts involved in the building. That is why I went to architecture school. Out of the 300 people in my class, I would only trust about 5 to produce a quality set of plans. My suspicions were then and there confirmed. Now, some good advice has been given here and whether you design houses or skyscrapers it all boils down to a few elements. Remember, often your job is less about designing and more about being liason between the client and the builder. The client's wants are filtered through your creativity and presented to the builder. In so, you should treat the builder with the same respect you treat the client. If the builder disagrees, run the filter in reverse, back to the client. Show up to work! Archy's often acquire their bad rep by making lots of money for doing very little. Most anyone can sketch something vague then delegate it towards being done.
Don't be that person. Be as precise as you know how, in everything you do. If your are thinking CDX ply, say it otherwise it will be OSB. If you don't know a dimension for sure, don't ever write it, go to the jobsite and measure (measure, measure, measure again!). In my opinion, a big hunk of your check each day is being on the jobsite. Go to work!Be open to change. Since I was a builder (remodeler to be exact) before going off to school for architecture, I feel I was a lot more prepared than the other students. One thing I excelled at was being open to change my ideas as conditions change. Much in construction (maybe not in cookie cutter projects) is bound to change as the building progresses. In remodeling, dimensions change, we find unexpected rot or obstructions. Sometimes the client's mind changes or his pocket book. The weather changes. Even the methods and materials in construction change. To be a good architect or builder you must be a master of change. Expect it, accommodate it, know how to deal with it, and possibly enjoy it. Although that doesn't cover everything a good architect should know, those are the basics that many are lacking (in my own opinion). Good luck.DC
DC - Sorry, but I'm gonna be a bit defensive here. While I appreciate your comments, it doesn't sound like you read this thread from the beginning (it's all in the details, right?). If you had, you would have seen that I mentioned being registered recently (interchangeable with the term licensed - depends on what floats your boat and maybe state regulations) as an Architect. I just can't change my username. Also, you would see that I mentioned that part of the problem these days, especially with being "trained" by many different architects over the course of an internship and especially with residential work, is that there are no standards. Except maybe the sheet sizes and where the title block is placed. You would have read that it is my goal to remain respectful of the knowledge contractors possess. I have never been an egotistical sh*t, and never will. Maybe it's because I started out late in life and my age does possess some wisdom. These are the reasons I am asking questions. None of the firms I have worked with over the course of my career have EVER taken the time to ask the guys in the field whether or not the drawings make sense from a logistical point of view (ie, layout, font, etc.), much less the reality of building a drawn detail. As I begin to design and stamp my own projects, I do not want to make the same mistakes as those I have worked for. I believe that getting the GC involved in the process as early as possible is of great importance. I have a lot of respect for the folks on the receiving end of my design/CDs, but I also expect the same respect from them. I know my job, and you know yours, so let's make it work.As for drafting standards, you may have had the great forsight to have taken a drafting class in CC. I did not. Nor did my university offer a basic drafting course in the architecture department. You learned by the seat of your pants. You should be cognizant of the fact that no two sets of CDs are alike. Am I wrong in this? I find it very difficult to believe that all of the drawings you work from follow AGS or typical drafting "standards." In hind sight, I wish I had taken a couple of drafting courses. It would have been beneficial and made architecture school easier in many respects. I wish I had done some framing, or worked on site sweeping sawdust. But I didn't. So what? It doesn't make me any less qualified or talented. Your assumption (granted, it sounds like you have not had good experiences with architects) that all architects are jerks is unfortunate. I have worked with contractors who are total morons, but I don't assume that they all are. It kinda sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder where architects are concerned. If you begin a working relationship with that chip, no wonder you have had bad experiences. I do not presume to be able to do your job better than you, and I would expect that you would not presume to my job better than me. If you do, then get licensed, or registered, or whatever you care to call it. Get the degree, log the thousands of hours of internship, take the 9 exams, pay the liability insurance, and start drawing. Okay, I'm off my soapbox. I don't mean to offend, but I'm passionate about what I do and I don't like being lumped in with bad apples.
Edited 2/4/2009 12:26 pm ET by almostarchitect
Almostarchitect,It's okay to be defensive, and it is great that you want to create your own drawing style by comparing to others. I didn't mean to be condescending, and I don't have it out for any architect especially you. As far as I can see, you are already ahead of your peers just by talking to those in the field who are expected to interpret your drawings.The fact that you don't fully grasp what is expected of you is fine when you are starting out but does mirror the fact that the education and apprenticeship required in the architecture profession are lacking in many ways. The education required in constructioin is lacking even more!In college, I knew a vast number of people who graduated without ever knowing what a real set of CD's looked like let alone how to create them. In the office environment, it is too easy to shelf away an apprentice without actually teaching them like is supposedly mandated. If you jumped from office to office you may have actually disadvantaged yourself from moving through the requisite areas of design development. I imagine that I would still be the grunt of a construction crew if I kept moving. That's just how it works, but it can work out fine if you keep doing what you are doing. Keep asking questions to those whom you admire. Buy lots of books. Learn from salvaged CD's made by good architects if you can. I constantly tweak the look of my output drawings, I read about designing and construction every day, I ask a lot of questions, I try to learn new techniques and new design software, and I never turn my back on a good ideal. Good luck.
DC
Thanks, DC. I'm okay now. :-) Doesn't help that I didn't get a project I really wanted. But the prospective client would have been a major PIA, so I suppose it's best.In any case, you are right about the level of education and what happens to interns. In school, at least where I went, architecture students probably leaned closed to a fine arts major than architecture. This was unfortunate. Part of the reason for multiple firms is having to relocate. Once it was because the guy was an mean and an idiot. Interns are typically relegated to the print room, sample room, Starbucks, or simply drawing toilet details. Granted, I wish I had drawn more details back then. I had somewhat of an advantage simply because of my age in terms of the amount of responsibility. I could go to meetings and represent well, plus I worked 10x harder to catch up and prove myself. I remember the first time I saw a real, live set of drawings. WTF! No one at school ever told us about these! Seriously. Classes in materials and methods, structures, etc. are sorely sparse. Maybe not in the top 10 schools, but definately most others. Hell, in school they never advised that there were intern hours to document once you got out. There is also a total lack of mentorship in this field. A lot of senior architects are so insecure that they would rather die than share their knowledge. Thankfully, I can handle the creativity part on my own to a large extent (and know where to go when I need help). As far as the technical realities, I have been fortunate to have worked with and befriended a few excellent contractors who will answer my questions without prejudice.So, I'll never know it all and just want to keep building on what I've already learned (no pun intended). And you're right as far as change - buildings are living, breathing, changing entities from beginning to end. Especially homes. If you can't deal with change and crises and the unknown, this is not the business to be in.
Where did you go to school anyway?I went to the University of Michigan, "The Harvard of the Midwest", which is usually rated pretty high amongst architecture colleges. While I learned a lot about the theory of architecture and art (actually the things I was lacking in) there wasn't much taught about construction and nearly nothing about document drawing. Those who needed that info were sorely hurt. I actually remember once in my "construction" class they were explaining how to frame a wood framed wall. Many people were totally confused by the dimensions of a 2x4 (if only they knew the REAL dimension) and the instructor explained to the class that all wood framed walls are "toe nailed" together. I don't think it would go over well telling your framing sub to toe nail all the walls together. It didn't help that the instructor was German...most instructors at UofM are young, inexperienced foreigners.I learned the most from other students and extra-curricular activities and I can proudly say that many learned a lot from me.In all, it's taken me about 20 years of experience to explain to you what I said in my first response. I work as a designer/builder (Dreamcatcher Design & Build) and can say for sure you are on the right path. Your questions will most importantly lead to better people skills which leads to better salesmanship which leads to success. Again, good luck.DC
Interesting response and it mirrors my own experience. I graduated from Va Tech School of Architecture and there too, there was almost no technical stuff being taught.
Fortunatly for me, upon figuring I might want to be an architect in high school, I was aggressive about getting a job as an office boy in an architectural firm. I worked after school and occasional weekends during my senior year. I was doing stuff like all the printing (this firm did all their own blueprinting), making the coffee in the morning, doing errands, going to the post office twice a day, getting the bosses car inspected, etc. But I kept my eyes and ears open. Worked great. A couple of the draftsman took me under their wings and had me doing all kinds of architectural stuff. Come summer I was "on the boards" helping them do reflected ceiling plans and what not.
And then of course every summer while at Tech I had a ready made job waiting June 1.
The whole thing worked really well with the theoretical school stuff part of the year and real world reality stuff the other part.
I recommed the arrangement to anyone wanting to become an architect, or really, a lawyer, a vet, a builder or anything for that matter. Can't lose. If one gets into an office and finds that the profession is not to their liking, they've found that out before more expensive education is bought. And if they do like it, there's ready made jobs and more importantly, contacts. I got other jobs based on people I knew at that firm. And another office boy and I, 8 years later, became partners and founded our own firm, eventually growing to 18 architects. And we made a point of hiring high school kids as office help. Today some have their own thriving firms.
It's a win/win situation.
Runnerguy
"If one gets into an office and finds that the profession is not to their liking, they've found that out before more expensive education is bought."great point even if aside form subject of the thread a wee bit. from working as a drafting assistant in an engineering dept I learned that I definitely did NOT want to be an engineer, though all my aptitude tests in school had me on track for that careeer
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DC - UM has a great reputation. I went to UNM (Albuquerque). Not a drafting class to be found... I was very happy when my horrid structures professor left to teach there (UM)! I also remember the confusion folks had over nominal and actual dimensions! Thankfully, I had hung around my dad a lot when I was a kid and knew the difference. Architecture programs are sorely lacking in exposing students to the realities of this business. Internships should be mandatory (real internships - not banished to the sample room). I wish I had had the luxury to have worked part time or summers at an architect's office. Unfortunately, since I started school in my early 30s and had grown up responsibilities, I could not. Worked full time, went to school full time, and just couldn't afford to work for nothing (or next to).
Edited 2/6/2009 8:43 am ET by almostarchitect
Good points about mentoringOne of the high points of my career was the opportunity I had to work with an old archy who really knew it all and who was glad to have somebody who wanted to know and to share it with. He was the old bird in a firm full of egomaniacs with no integrity or talent. They kept him around for ideas but otherwise kept him hidden. He had had a stroke, and was a recovering alcoholic, so his hands were weak and his speech halting and trembling. he had a hard time communicating or drawing. But I saw the talent there. The man was a genius with over forty years of experience in the field of classical design.I was the builder on the project and this firm had been chosen by my client for the design work. the other partners did not like me so they were glad to let me sidestep them to communicate with the old man who they also disrespected except for what ideas they could suck out of him.I probably spent thirty or fourty hours with him over the course of that project. He would let me know what things he had in mind verbally or by showing me pages in his old books and I would sketch up my interpretation of what I understood him to say. Then he would correct me or refine what I'd done.I think we both had a great time, and I think I learne d more from those hours than any other in the course of my design work.
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I think both of you have some excellent things to say. I hope you both learn from each other.My main reason for jumping in right here ( while there are still seven posts I haven't read yet) is to say how surprised I am to learn that you got all the way thru and there was never a basic drafting course available of even required.I took a year of 'Mechanical Drawing' in High school which was a drafting course, as an elective, then worked as a drafting assistant at an aerospace plant my first summer out of HS. That was excellent training is standards, though not specifically applicable to residential drafting and design.
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Piffin, in accredited engineering schools, "drafting" classes are discouraged. In part because the credit load is so high between the required eningeering core of math, science and engineering courses, and the university core requirements in language, social sciences, history, fine art, etc., that it is nearly impossible to do the "four year" degree in 8-semesters. (The school I went to required authorization from, your Department Chair, the Dean of the College, and the Vice President of Student Affairs to take more than 14-credits a semester your freshman year. To graduate in 8-semesters, you needed to take 18-credits for 6-semesters, and 17, for 2-smemsters, for a total of 142-credits.) And, because the theory is they don't want the students dropping out to become draftsman.
Ya know, not that I have read this through I have been thinking that perhaps while my architectural education has some holes in it by virtue of being self-educated, and coming up the ladder through the ranks of builders, on a practical basis, I may have ended up better versed in the job than most architectural students pursuing the traditional road to practice. I started in an engineering program at Clarkson College of Technology with an 18 credit course. Top half of my class first semester. Then I dropped out because I could see no goal in mind.
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Edited 2/5/2009 6:26 am ET by Piffin
What's funny about education and architecture is that I am, with my lowly BA-Architecture, considered pond scum by those with 5 year and masters degrees. Like one more semester of studio really makes a difference. It's one of my pet peeves. Because I am pond scum, it makes reciprocity in other states impossible. Not to mention I had to jump through more hoops and intern longer. Some kid just graduating with a 5 year "professional" degree can do his/her 3 year internship while simultaneously taking his/her exams, and be a registered architect 3 years out of school. AND get licensed in pretty much every state. Me? 4 year degree, 5 years of internship, 10 years of experience, the wisdom of age :-) and it means diddly to NCARB. But I won't even go there. Wrong forum!But to your comment - these are some of the best places to learn.
Edited 2/5/2009 3:59 pm ET by almostarchitect
Va. Tech has a program where the fourth year is spent in an office. I elected to go that route. We all gathered in Blacksburg 4 or 6 times during the year to give presentations on our office and what we were doing. Sometimes the principals of the firm would come if they had graduated from Tech or had school connections. And faculty would come up to the offices to visit. Great program.
The program tends to come and go with the economy however. When I participated the economy was booming so anyone could participate (All students are responsible for finding a suitable firm on their own-No guarentees as to a job. Va. Tech would only provide you with a list of firms that had participated previously. But a job not being a "gimmie" tended to sharpen interviewing skills). In recession years the program went into hibernation because it was a real job with real pay.
Runnerguy
Almostarchitect,You know, as I read more of these postings about what to include in construction docs, I am wondering what CAD programs you use to create? I find that to be accurate and fast I use Sketchup to quickly model the 3D then export views to Autocad to produce CD's. By using Sketchup (by drawing in 3D in general) I can discover and solve any problems which are common to construction. I actually build the entire building in Sketchup; every block, joist, stud, rafter, and sheet of ply. I draw the actual cabinets and fit the actual appliances. Windows, doors, and trim. I even include ducts and major electrical and plumbing components. When I am done, the house is "livable" in the virtual environment. I can produce "dirty" plans for me to build off or for working between the client and subs for refinement. Then I can revolve the plan, chop out sections, and add close up details which are individually exported to Autocad where it is easier for me to dimension, annotate, poche, and layout onto templated sheets. The next version of Sketchup/Layout promises that I will not need to export any more.I think most architects who get in big trouble do so because they refuse to visualize in 3D. I admit that some do have that vision in their heads but most do not. This is most likely the reason that I have never ever had a drawing of stairs that was actually useable and why most architects now just hand their roof designs off to a truss company. The other advantage to using 3D to draw is the ease of precision. I can easily design an addition and order the exact number of each materials needed. Then I can precut all the lumber in the comfort of my woodshop before going to the site and building. I have done precutting on rafters, gable walls, and on complex partitions with much success. As a bonus, I have reduced my waste output by 70%. Just some food for thought. DC
Good point, DC. I know plenty of arch's that draw "flat." I use Autocad Architecture 2008, and draw as if I'm building. All components (walls, slabs, doors, windows, etc.) are 3D, so I assign heights, elevations, etc. As long as I am consistent with this, I can pretty easily cut sections and generate elevations. The 3D feature has gotten pretty good in Autocad, so now I can actually do fly thru's and stuff like that. The section is still rather rudimentary and I always end up having to do a lot of tweaking, but at least the basics are there so I'm saving a couple of steps.I've only fiddled around with Sketchup a bit. I didn't even know you could export to Autocad. Does it retain wall and window definitions in terms of sill height, head height, etc.? Can you go the other way around - export from Autocad to Sketchup? Do you use the free version or the full version?
AA,If Autocad Architecture 2008 is anything like the versions of Architectural Desktop that I have worked in then it is sorta flip-flopping between a 2D and 3D environment. ArchDesk required you to draw in plan view using assigned wall lines which are attached to 3D definition files. You could orbit around to view the 3D creation but it would take awhile to link and load all the 3D info. Later you could map surfaces not already defined. It was a pain and slow compared to Sketchup. If that is still the case then I assume this is what yo are meaning when you ask about window definitions. I use the Professional Version of Sketchup. It is very easy to learn and comparatively easy to master - it took me a half an hour to learn to draw and I have taught others to be nearly as proficient as me in just a day. Sketchup is always 3D. In fact, it is commonly used in 3D perspective mode. This allows it to be easier to judge depths, lengths, heights, etc. as they are in the real world. I remember long ago when drawing in "3D" on a computer really just meant drawing in axonometric. When I place a window in Sketchup, I actually place it in a wall...just like I was installing the actual window. I place each stud in the walls and each sheet of plywood. By virtually building the same way we actually build, I can easily find and solve any issues.Sketchup is CHEAP (it's free if you don't need to import and export to Autocad). The cost of the program ($500) will come back to you in your first commission. Compare that to Autocad......my copy of Architectural Desktop 3.3 retailed for over $4000 when it came out. Fortunately I didn't have to buy it or it would have taken years to pay it off.Like I mentioned, the Autocad Import/Export features are only in the professional (pay) version. It has many other Import/Export capabilities too. It can export to many formats including: 2D or 3D to DWG, DXF, 3DS, DEM, DDF, 2D raster,Collada, KML and animation export. It can export xml and csv files and can print to PDF (very helpful when you don't own a huge plotter). Most necessary "components" (A.K.A. "blocks") are free from their site and are quickly becoming the standard freebie from cabinet, window, and appliance manufacturers. I really can't say enough.DC
"visualize in 3D"That's alarge part of my reason for doing design. I first bought a program to produce 3D to show clients what they would be getting after too maany times of building an architect's design and having the lients deide they don't like this that and the other thing on a walk thru just before sheetrock.I use Softplan which works in 3d with objects as a matter of ourse
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Also, have worked with archies who have different perspectives. One was very good at the facade - great balance and curb appeal with classic detailing. but his interior spaces felt unomfortable.
Another one had a background in interior design. He had that down to a T and did leevations of every single wall showing swtich placement, mirros, cab hardware et al, but he barelyt gave a thought to how things looked from th e exterior, such as staacking windows, or to structural componenets such as load paths on a three storey house. Each room by itself was great, but light and traffic flow were not always good
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architects who get in big trouble do so because they refuse to visualize in 3D.
That's because a surprising number of them, in my experience have little or no spatial perception that no amount of drafting classes could ever cure.
I've worked for people who would construct elaborate plans and equally elaborate elevations, and were frustrated by the fact that the two often did not match (which is bad enough in commercial work).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
is to say how surprised I am to learn that you got all the way thru and there was never a basic drafting course available of even required.
Well, sadly, the more 'academic' th U, often the less 'practical' the curricula can be.
For instance, in my youth, Engineering majors were only required to take 3 credit hours of drafting at all. This was not high-speed work, either. A & M had a department, then, of Engineering Design Graphics, that was a wierd amalgam of pure reseach and obscure classes no one wanted to take (the only EDG degree program was an MS & PhD, where they were developing numeric information models and long-hair CAD stuff). Curiously, that department was the last on campus to buy, let alone teach, ACAD.
In my architecture curriculm, we were required to take 3 c/h of 100-level "graphics" class (the landscape archies and Const. Sci. majors, too). We then had to take 3 more c/h of "plan drafting." Sadly, the quality of that class was very dependant on the instructor, but I was lucky in having one of the best, and an exemplar, too. Our curriculum "recommendations" included a strong hint to take at least 3 more hours of drafting. Nine credit hours is not a lot, not in an 139 hour curriculum. The academic presumption was that in 48+ hours of design studio, some graphics capabilites would emerge.
In addition, the mechanica classes required more than a small amount of drafting skill, too (often very dependant upon the instructor). I wound up taking 5 hours of then-new CAD stuff. I did not see ACAD until a year later in grad school.
Of course, in those days, offices assumed that new graduates had all sorts of high ideas of what offices were really like, and were functionally useless, meaning they needed culling by ordeal of scutwork, to determine the ones worthy of actually teaching detailing to. Which then meant the newbies were laid into the least-enjoyable, lowest-impact drafting--stairwell sections, parking garage railings, and the like.
CAD has changed that. it's changing the face of things. Engineers seem to be the last bastion of firms where the business model uses teams of drafters to churn out drawings.
Which gets me to my pet peeve for architecture curricula; we are not teaching the business model for the business of architecture. It's no wonder the kids get out of school and have to be taught the nuts and bolts. Just as bad in Construction Science in some ways. Teaching the kids how to be parts of firms of over 100 employees would be good--if that was the plan. The fact that more than 80% of te firms out there are under 25 ought to be the focus. But, that's an axe I grind all too often.
Oh, Simplex is my friend, followed by Arial, then Technic. City Blueprint is too busy (fixed obliquing) for real use (except to overwright engineer's drawings). TNR is readily available, but the serifs reduce by xerography very poorly (and not always nicely via pdf). I personally prefer to use lower case and save ALL CAP for important, "shouted" info.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
egads! This is like graduating doctors who only have three credit hours of anatomy classes and no lab time on cadavers at all
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This is like graduating doctors who only have three credit hours of anatomy classes and no lab time on cadavers at all
Well, that's a tad unfair, if far too close to apt.
Medical prefession is generally pushed into the largest of facilities (since that is where the jobs are), where they also then have lots of eyes to watch that they do not err. Once they finish interning and residency, though, thye have no idea how to run a small MD office, though.
Curiously, the capitol needed to start up an architectural practice from scratch is very similar to that needed to create an MD office from scratch (without floors quite so claenable, naturally).
The business model is changing, though. Computers mean that a principal can write their own letters, answer their own mail, produce and control their own drawings. Indeed, internet connectivity means principals have to have direct connections to their customers/clients/etc.
Ok, you still need somebody to answer the phone, or you'll never get enough time to get out of the office from all the investment house cold calls and the like.
Metrics are still out there--75% of the architectural work is done by offices under 25, 80% of those offices are 10 or less. GC numbers are similar, 80% work by offices of 15 or less, 75% of those 6 or less. yet, the colleges and U's offering education seem to only teach their students how to be cogs in the other 25% of the biz. That bugs me no small end. Estimating? OTJ How to be a sub? OTJ how to select and hire subs? OTJ
I'm hoping that I'm part (Kevin H, too, for that matter) of the last generation who has to learn 'real board drafting" by drawing stairwell sections or parking gargages--mostly since those spaces always nag me for having rookie mistakes in them.
The scary side of that, though, is that employers are going to need kids who actually know what they need to when they are hired. I've no good answer for that at all. The scariest answer I hear any more when I ask a recent graduate if they know something is, "Yeah, I took a class in that." Which is not the question I asked.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Ok, what to do about how we teach the people who build our buildings?
At the unversity level, we probably need some realignments (and that would be the most difficult hurdle at all).
But, if we would commit some real-world experience to these jobs, it might make a difference. I'd like to sse some required time in the field. I especially think anyone who is going to deal with site layout and conditions should have to go out in the field and work with some of the excrement committed to drawings.
I mean, really, every CAD system out here has a simple way to make either an arc or circle exactly tangent to other lines and curves at an exactly-specified radius. Why, then, are non-tangental curves almost always the rule from CE's? Why do I find splined lines on parking lot layouts? You cannot layout a spline with stakes, 100' tape, and a can of spray paint--honest (I've tried).
it's little things like, you really have to place foundations for lighting and bollards before you start putting in the curb forms or the flatwork. Or that you really have to have the sleeves trenched in before you stabilize the paving subgrade. Or, that, if you don't do some pregrading, and don't tell the electrical sub about the places with 48" of cut, or 60" of fill going in, they might just trench the parking lot lighting conduit in at 42" deep, just like the plans say . . .
Gee, things like modular dimensions. Coin-operated carwashes have become popular around here to fill pad leases. CE shops seem to like taking up drawing creation for these, of late. One I know of is going to have a real time getting split-faced cmu to make a neat 18' x 18" x 120" column (let alone eight). That 30" high kneewall with no cap will also be fun, too.
Worst thing right now is that many of the univeristies have two minds on the work product that they are to produce. One mind is that everything is academic, whatever happens in the real world is none of their concern at all. Another mind is that "what ever just meets external accreditation will suffice." Neither situation is a giant magnet to the best faculty to teach students. Or, only for those most exceptional instructors out there (hard to find ones like the late E.E. "Mickey" Allen, USMC).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Times New Roman, was designed for ease of reading. If you use drafting software that has it the old "Leroy" style was specificly develeoped to be easily read on drawings. The hand writing fonts just look like an attempt at being an "artist" to me. But, I'm an engineer, and the hand written text that was acceptable and stylish for Architects, was never in fashion with Engineers.
Anything less than ten points high is hard to read quickly if the light isn't ideal. I do all of my design work based on 22X34 originals, and 11X17 reductions. So the smallest font is 20-pt.
If you use an autocad product, the defaults that come with the templates they have generally work well.
I put ten degrees of oblique on dimensions and text related to new work. Text related to existing features, and related dimensions gets 17 degrees of oblique, and is printed a little lighter.
I find Arial and Tahoma easiest to read.
Not sure if this has already been covered but was looking at the plans for some tirekickers today. When you dimension start from the corner furthest from the road and opposite side of the garage. The garage tends to be where all the materials are staged (The geograpghy lends itself to be easiest for trucks, hence the location of the garage, right?) and the last place to be framed.
Just wanted to add my input into the question about fonts on plans.I don't care what font anyone uses, as long as it's not the stuff that's designed to look like hand writing. To me, that's the hardest to read..BTW - I'm always happy to help out an architect if they call with questions about trusses. (Which is my job) I'd rather solve problems ahead of time than deal with them after the plans are out for bid..I'm ALSO glad to see an architect that doesn't have an ego the size of Texas.(-:
You can fool some of the people all the time – those are the ones to concentrate on.
Boss - if anything, I don't give myself enough credit. I'd rather have cash anyway...Just met with one of those texas egos about some contract work - eeew. Not a nice guy.
Ryder, Piffin, John, everyone -Thanks so much for the advice. I'm compiling all of those comments in a checklist for myself. I hear a lot from my husband, a construction attorney with mostly GC's and other trades as clients, that architects are "idiots." Present company excepted, of course. But I hear what he's saying. Most of his clients wouldn't be in some of the messes they are in if the architect worked in tandem with them, instead of sitting high atop their pedestals. I don't want to be that kind of architect and will do whatever I have to do to avoid the holier than thou behaviour. Although I do have to say that I have been on the receiving end of that attitude by a GC a couple of times. Once, I was working on a detail and called the GC for advice on the connection. His answer was, "You're the architect. Don't you know?" But those moments are few and far between (sometimes I think those rare moments have more to do with the fact that I'm a girl...). When you guys get calls from the designer, with questions about this that or the other, how do you typically react? Is there really no such thing as a stupid question? Do you think less of the designer because they call you with questions? I know a lot of archi's that wouldn't dream of asking the GC about anything, and a lot of GC's who won't call the architect with a question because they have an "a**hole" reputation. Just curious.
Edited 1/31/2009 8:06 am ET by almostarchitect
I usually work well with architects, but I do sometimes throw something back on them, tho hopefully not with attitude.I am remembering one where the archy had promised the client that they could have a ten foot ceiling in one certain space.Well there was ten feet to work with, but that included the slab and the framing for the roof above. After the architect told me he was sure it could be done, I just said, "YOU draw all the elevations and details and I can build it then."After a week, he called to tell me that it wasn't possible and how could "we" let the owner know?
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Congrats!
I do remodeling exclusively and the most frustrating thing that shows up on the plans is bad as-built measurements. I did one last year where the roof shear was transfered to a wall that wasn't there.
I know it's hard to measure a kitchen full of cabinets and tile backsplashes. But to take a "best guess" measurement and sandwich in new cabinets is a 50/50 proposition. Best case I need fillers and worst case the cabinets won't fit.
In many kitchens the electrical is an afterthought and there's no room between the door trim and the adjacent pantry or frige cabinet for a light switch. Sometimes the plans show outlets centered in a tile. That can dictate stud layout. How about outlets on islands? Usually an afterthought.
If a kitchen cabinet is installed tight to the ceiling and the ceiling is out of level it won't look good and the doors will hit the recessed light trims. I charge double for these tight design spaces.
The higher end cabinets and appliances are more difficult to install and I charge accordingly. I recently installed a kitchen of HD knock-down cabinets in a few hours. The same kitchen with Wood Mode cabinets and tight design would have taken two or three days.
Of course builders can screw-up even the best designs and make them look like a tract house. Don't compromise on design! That's why you get paid.
Architects draw pretty pictures and builders try to build 'em.
OB
I love when the design team gets us invoved early. Some of the big commercial guys are even doing that. In the field we see so much that often we have an idea that can save much time, materials, even just a better application so we don't have to submit changes latter.
Most designers are really just looking to do the best job they can and appreciate when I call for clarifications or suggestions. I won't mention the exceptions, because that is just what they are.
yeah, and put BOLD lettering that says NOT TO SCALE
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BTW, I am leaving here in half an hour for a few days, so that other item will be a awhile to your email.
Wife is scheduled to have a skin cancer chunk taken off her head tomorrow and we have a major storm moving in, so some other scheduling is moved around here to get us off island this afternoon.
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Good luck with both!
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
Best of luck - I hope everything goes well.
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - I Corinthians 14:8
Yah, well, the hole in here head look like I shot her, and Doc says she'll probably have a black eye.But she's looking on the positive side. It gets here out of shoveling snow this week, LOL
She had a bleeder afterwards that took some time and an extra stitcch or two, so nothing that cn tear it open.Both of us sem to be getting some skin cancer clipped or frozen off oncea year.
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Glad to hear it turned out OK.
If you go to a bookstore and ask a salesperson where the self-help section is, doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Mohs procedure?
???
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In #25 you said: "Yah, well, the hole in her head look like I shot her, and Doc says she'll probably have a black eye.But she's looking on the positive side. It gets here out of shoveling snow this week, LOL"Mohs surgery is used often on squamous cell carcinoma. It cuts out the apparent growth, plus some margin around it. Then they examine sections all around the perimeter of what they removed for remaining growth and go back for more until the whole perimeter is clean.Hole in the head is about what my pics looked like (a year ago). It didn't get me out of snow removal, though. Give her the shovel, tell her to get some air while you do the hard work of cruising BT threads.[OP: sorry for the hijack]
I didn't recognize the name for it. Yes, that's how they did it.It was because of the bleeder and the way they stretched surronding skin to close up that is the reason for light duty
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A few things come to mind having volunteered and supervised habitat projects:
-Make sure everything is kept to scale,so that If a dimension is missing it can be measured
-Provide a joist layout that misses the toilet flange
-Detailed drawing of intended framing method for openings showing headers,jacks etc. (Otherwise I find different framing methods throughout a house sometimes)
-A list of parts that can be pre-cut by an inexperienced volunteer such as: header schedule, length & number of trimmers, jacks,sills,corners, channels etc.
-dimension to one side of the plate & not to center
-
My biggest complaint was dimensions that don't agree from page to page, or numbers that don't add up. I was running the crew on a $ 10 million school building . I had 200 change orders or RFI's before we had all the concrete poured. Every descrepency was billable to the school for a $ 300 charge plus the correction needed. The school bean counter got upset when I said we got the low bid but I was making up for it. cost over run was undisputed 10 % , the other 5 % was negeotiated
I always include a note and scale bar, saying in essence: What size sheet the original is drawn for, (usually 22X34), and that if reduced check the scale bar, and adjust take offs accordingly. Since printers vary a lot on how much of the page they will print to there should always be a scale bar.
My plotter hits the size as close as I can measure. My 11X17 printer is half size as close as I can measure, but the one in the office that every body else uses, is small by about 7%.
very good. Sounds like you've been over the mountain with this stuff many a time.
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Great thread. Don't how I've missed it to date.
While I'm an architect (yes, degree, licensed/registered etc.) and have been doing nothing but residential stuff for 33 years, I have gotton more into building and completed my third house last July.
Things I've tried to do on drawings:
-Dimension stair openings on the floor plan. At the bottom, figure on 3- 1/2" bearing from the edge of the opening to the first riser. At the top, figure on 3" from the last riser to the edge of the opening. Same with landings. Show these dimensions clearly on the floor plan.
-Also with stairs on an outside wall, account for the 8" of concrete plus furring in the basement. It's going to be several inches thicker then the stud wall at the first floor. And if the stairs are stacked, you have to carry that allowance on up to the second floor.
-As said before, dimension to the edge of studs.
-Take a look at the floor joist layout and make sure you're at least 4" away from tub and toilet drains. As luck will have it you almost never are. One is always dead center of a joist, even ones at 24"OC.
-If access to the plumber isn't there (sometimes at the CD stage, there's no plumber aboard)make an educated guess as to where the 4" soil stack may be and show that wall as 2X6's. Through experience I've gotten pretty good at figuring it out. It's not hard. And while you're at it, be sure to show any exterior wall that has pumbing as at least 2X6's.
-Try to get imput from the HVAC guy as to duct run locations and chase sizes. Be a little on guard here however. If an 18"X18" chase will do the HVAC guy will want more "To make installation easier". And of course he doesn't care if an already small bedroom losses a foot.
-Follow point loads from the roof all the way down. Nothing like having 4-2x4 post on the second floor holding up that huge girder truss and forgeting about the load on the first floor where it falls dead center of a 12' SGD. Oops!!
-With a house that has a little complexity, it's almost always better to draw no wall sections and draw as many as needed building sections at 1/2" or 3/4" scale with no break lines. The whole house front to back. It gives "the big picture" better.
-In setting up your sheet size, use arch D (24"x36") but only use 22"x34" of that area. For example if your title block if it's on the right will only be 21" long (leaving 1/2" top and bottom margin. That way, it's easy to reduce the drawing by 50% to get to 11"X17", a size that can be handled on most office copiers. That size is great for bidding purposes and then you have the larger size for the field when needed. The GC will love you for it.
-Always check beams that have any significant depth (like 14" ML's) if their ends are perpendiculair to a sloped roof. Often you'll find the roof cuts off the top of the beam, maybe leaving 2" of bearing height at the wall. Oops!!
-If there's going to be big door trim (like Adams casing), check all the door jamb locations and their relationship to walls. You'll need maybe 6" on each side of the door to have the trim look good. Nothing looks worse then ripped Adams casing.
Gotta go to a meeting now. I'll think of more later.
Runnerguy
Great to bring out the consideration for the mechanicals. way too many plans I have been given ignored that and force me as contractor to figure it out on site. Things like that is one of the reasons I got into doing my own design work. If I had to do half the architects job for him, why not do it all?
;)I work almost exclusively with wider casings, so the door placement is second nature for me, but for the designer who does that more occasionally, they really need to make the effort to allow the space for those casings so the trim guy doesn't have to butcher them up. Nothing looks worse than 2/3s of a rosette block
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good points, especially regarding the 3D aspects. I've read most of the threads here, and am in agreement with most of the ideas for providing more usable construction doc's. If one is using 2D CAD, or hand drafting, I would propose doing as many sections as possible. I realize at "crunch" time a draftsman may be pressured to get the plans to the permit stage, but really, taking a few extra hours to develop some sections can pay huge dividends, even if the sections are not presented on the actual construction drawings. Try not to leave anything to chance. In my view, the bigger areas of concern are not only giving contractors a plan that is easier to read and navigate, but also something that works! Pay extra attention to load paths and bearing conditions, and make sure anything that is "designed" is build-able. This sometimes requires better collaboration between the designer, engineer, truss manufacturer, builder. Another simple, but often overlooked step is to make sure the foundation "closes", provide a smaller (maybe 1/8" scale) drawing of the foundation footprint, identifying all wall lengths and offsets, pay close attention to jogs at the basement wall/garage areas (usually from poured walls to trench footings) these are often offset by a couple inches. On this smaller plan you could provide some basic diagonal dimensions for the excavator and foundation crews. Note your wall thicknesses on the plan if leaving them off of your dimension strings. Try to keep some logic going on the drawings, try to keep them as uncluttered as possible, and get rid of erroneous details. If not providing floor and roof framing sheets, note headers and bearing studs on the floor plans. Use callout notes (box them out bold) whenever possible to alert framers and/or truss and floor manufacturers when special conditions exist (chimneys thru roof, special floor loads like huge islands, heavy fireplace hearths, etc.) They need to know this when designing their end of the plans. With house plans becoming more and more complicated, if you are a one person office, try to have someone review your plans prior to releasing them for construction. Even the best designer/architect/drafts-person can benefit from an extra pair of eyes!
A few years ago I was working for a small A/E firm. On the my first project, I dove in as I usually did - working on plans, sections, elevations pretty much simultaneously. When they saw that I was doing sections, I was ordered to stop wasting time with them... Can you believe it? I stood there with my jaw on the floor. I mean, how can you design a building, even the most basic family room addition or garage, without looking at it in section?! Their answer was that "they'll know how to build it." I was at least able to convince them to "allow" me to add a typical wall section... sheesh.
I can believe it, just by my own experience I can tell you the benefits of doing multiple sections on complicated plans. Personally I discover things that work, but often can be reworked alittle to simplify something on the plan(s). I too have been told "2 sections are plenty"! I would rather take a couple extra hours to figure things out then hang it on the people in the field, besides, it will come back to bite the architect eventually.
Good thread.
Well I got to tell you, as a kid I drew floor plans after seeing a real blue print. I always hung around job sites, My high school counseller on early 70's asked what I wanted to do after high school I said I wanted to be an architect. She told me I was to dumb for university and consider the trades. Moved high schools and got 1000% in drafting 49% in algbra and geometry. Did great in art class but a bad christian!!! said why waste time in school since don't mean ####. So quit school after a teacher slammed me into a locker then got kicked out of the house ( following the footsteps of older brothers who were A+ students is hard).
Moved to Lethbridge Alta and crashed with friends. Worked everything from display at Sears to a engineering firm doing a major water project rebuild to some residential housing, while going to high school part time. ( Public school no relgion)Worker with one fellow Blair M he was "just a draftsman" but he knew more than most P ENG et all. I did everthing from simple drawings, Ammoinioa Blue printing and making and collating bid books, spec sheets, surveying and general joe boy. God I loved it
Blair explained the simple but over looked compresion and tension and how concrete was poured, slump tested, and set.
But father had major heart attack and Mom asked me to move home to help out. Fast forward Worked as a Prosthetic tech and custom shoemaker. Built two of my own homes, took nursing and burnt out after 15 years and now find myself doing construction. I work for one GC off and on setting ICF's site plans etc. I also work with owner/ builders some with open minds some as dumb as stink.Now I wish like heck I would have told the counseller to pound sand and not do what I was told. Many good points are made before but if you have the exposure from a multi faceted life stepping up to being a real professional will let you find your way.I rip my hair out when 3 1/2 inch casing is speced but no allowance for this left into the door/window spacing lay out. Door swings hitting toilets, No total run # just the small incrmental runs that leads to all sorts of errors doing field work.
Give me measurements from the outside to out side and tell me the allowance for siding/trim. Are you planning a brick ledge? is that factored into the drawing or insulation of walls. Can the cabinet guy really get a crown moulding all around a run of cabinets when you are ordering stock cabinets
Last rant the plumber that sites code about plumbing and doesn't know diddley about any other code. ie electrical panel placement or hall way width. Full speed ahead, Damn the torpedos! I know it's a learning curve that is forced down your throat wether you want it or not! But in time you will find out who likes your style and who to avoid like the plague. Did anyone one teach you bill collecting 101 or getting lawyer screwed 300 ?
Sort of jealous of you.
But keep us posted
Forgot to mention, sales people at the Big box stores, people that think you can grout tiles before being put down, people that watch home improvement shows and don't see the trades scratching there head trying to put a one piece fiberglass tub in a finished basement.Research the Sydney Opera house and the Montreal Olympic Stadium. Both these should be done as case studies into the "What not to do class". As far as I know the Montreal stadium was recently paid off, after being built for the 76 Olympics. There were so many delays the first retractable roof rotted in storage, and others have failed under snow loads. Not to mention " bus sized bits of concrete have fallen from the columns.
Then the big scandle of corruption and substandard materials ad nauseaum ......