The house two doors down from us was reroofed last winter. Existing clay tile roof was torn off and architectural shingles laid. Work was contracted through HD.
A few months later, my wife’s parents bought the house. Yes, it is just like Everybody Loves Raymond.
Within a couple of months, they noticed water damage in a ceiling on the second floor. Lo and behold, the chimney hadn’t been flashed correctly. HD repaired it after a go-around, and the in-laws are fighting now to get HD to pay for repairing the damaged plaster.
At some point recently, my MIL decided to look over the original reroof contract. (Keep in mind, they weren’t parties to the contract.) She thought it said that the gutters were to be replaced. When I looked at the contract, it said that all new “gutter aprons” were to be installed. What is a “gutter apron”? I’m not familiar with this terminology.
In the process of looking at their contract, I went up on their roof tonight and took the photos below. I would appreciate any comments you might have to offer. Is this job typical of a big box roof job? Typical of a roof job in general? I think that some of the flashing/weatherproofing details are lacking. The photos don’t show the dozen or so exposed nail heads scattered across the roof, nor do they show the un-reflashed fireplace chimney. (Contract stated “will reflash your chimney”. The furnace chimney was reflashed, as shown in the photos.
Finally, when installing drip edge, is the drip edge lapped over the IWS, or is the IWS lapped over the drip edge?
TIA
Replies
That's not the best job right there.
Technically, drip edge should go over the ice and water, but it's pretty common to put the ice and water over the drip edge.
If I had to guess i'd say gutter apron is drip edge.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that. Drip edge was mentioned separately. The contract stated that they would:
1. Reflash the chimney
2. Nail down any sheathing that was not nailed down (WTF???????)
3. Install drip edge along all eaves
4. Install gutter apron along all rakes
5. Install new metal valleys where there were metal valleys on the old roof.In addition, they would install IWS up 6' from the eaves, install ridge vent, and install a 30-year shingle with 10-year workmanship warranty...I would have run from this contract if it had been me. It was full of grammatical and spelling errors ("eves" instead of "eaves"), and was written as if the author were speaking. You know how there's a difference between written English and spoken English? This was spoken English, written down...
what you have to ask yourself...
do you really want the same chumps who did this in the first place back to fix it?
I could understand if you were the original customer and had paid for it.... and I do understand wanting to have the job completed correctly under warranty and not out of pocket, However If it were me.... I'd find a good reputable roofer and have him look at it and give me an estimate.
Just out of curiosity... none of this show'd on the Home Inspection?
I have seen that kind of workmanship all over the place nowadays. The roofer did not seem to know what step flashing and counter flashing is and certainly did not use it. Those kind of roofs are guaranteed leak. Was the roof inspected by a local building inspector? That would not have passed inspection where I used to live.
>>>>>>>>Existing clay tile roof was torn off and architectural shingles laid.
This is closing the gate after the cows are out, but more than likely, the only thing wrong with the tile roof was the flashings and the fasteners were worn out. The tile was probably still good. We've done jobs like this numerous times where we take off the tile, repair sheathing, install new underlayment, reflash, and re-install the tile, replacing what's broken.
Now, the guys that did this roof were average shinglers at best, but most of the issues are cosmetic. However, there is some tricky flashing on this roof and these guys don't have a clue. Get someone who knows how to reflash stucco and insist on using copper. There are some details that need to be soldered rather than caulked.
Good luck.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
ditto, ditto, ditto.
my heart really broke when i saw what a great looking house this is.
do you think they can just ask for the tile back ?
carpenter in transition
O.K. kind of a dumb question. Is that one of the big selling points behind copper flashing? That it can be soldered and therefore failsafe if done correctly? Verses caulk which will stop adhering or breakdown over time in certain conditions?
"I went to Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and no one there was mad at me." DustinF 06'
http://www.hay98.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is that one of the big selling points behind copper flashing? That it can be soldered and therefore failsafe if done correctly? Verses caulk which will stop adhering or breakdown over time in certain conditions?Yup, plus it needs no maintenance like galvanized or terne which are the other two widely used flashing materials in these parts (both can be soldered - but will rust.)
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thanks. Now I know.
"I went to Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and no one there was mad at me." DustinF 06'
http://www.hay98.com/
Anything else starts troubling you, you just ask your old buddy Grant.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I know I always have a place to go when I have questions. Thanks.
"I went to Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and no one there was mad at me." DustinF 06'
http://www.hay98.com/
Many small independent tradesmen and business people who believe that customers cannot get quality work at a good price from Home Depot are fooling themselves.
You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the truth. Acceptance and a good business strategy will serve you much better.
Deal with it don't deny it,
Kowboy
Kowboy,
There is a cold hard truth to deal with here. Places like Lowes and Home Depot charge the going rate and then take the cut they want and pass what's left on to the Subcontractor who does the work.
While some established businesses will take on HD or Lowes work, for the most part it will always be to keep a cashflow or to keep people busy. Never as a prime source of work.
I've yet to meet anyone who has had any level of success with Lowes or HD's install program.
Yes I do know a few very skilled individuals who do install for the big boxes. They don't like sales or business but feel like they want to be their own boss. They would be much better off using their advanced skills to get a job with a reputable company. Each to their own I guess.
Either way, they are the exception as opposed to the rule. several of my friends, and even I myself, have at one time or another thought that installing for big boxes would be a good way to fill slow time or keep busy during the winter. Maybe keep a cash flow.
To date, no one I know who I would let work on my house still installs for them. The jobs are mismanaged, the orders wrong, and they waste your time on almost every job.
The guys I know who still do? Are not guys I would let work on my house.
Truth be told, the program is run at the district or even store level. Maybe the one in your area is well run. The one in mine is not. And the customers suffer because of it.
As for satisfaction, Someone said getting any from HD was a joke. Not really, you just have to work your way up the food chain till you find the one guy who knows he needs the problem fixed because he can't afford the bad press.
But, it should never have to come to that.
Maybe the cusatomer can get a decent job from some install programs. But in the end, the guy who does the work is selling his soul for the privilage of doing it for a sub standard rate. And that doesn't do any good for the trades as a whole.
Hardly a concept worth defending.
"Many small independent tradesmen and business people who believe that customers cannot get quality work at a good price from Home Depot are fooling themselves."On the other hand anyone that thinks that by using HD/Lowes/Sears for installs guarantees a quality and trouble free job is delusional.
heh heh
Kowboy said small.
be smallThe bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
There is a reason why roofing companies make their living year after year doing roofs and continue to stay in business.
Edited 9/17/2006 3:56 pm by gb93433
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There is a reason why roofing companies make their living year after year doing roofs and continue to stay in business. Around here, the roofing company with the biggest yellow page ad will not be here next year. The reason I stay in business year after year is if one of my crews phucks up, I get it taken care of and I get it taken care of quick. I pay my shingle sub a min of $35/sq. There's few jobs where he makes that little. I talked to a sub that does work for HD about a year ago. He said they pay $15/sq. Admittedly, most of the roofs that HD would do are simpler than the one in question from the original poster.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
"There is a reason why roofing companies make their living year after year doing roofs and continue to stay in business. "'cause it rains?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ROTFLMAO;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
you're such a comforting soul!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is a leaking roof normal for an HD roof install -- I'd think so.
I keep saying if the big box stores want to be in the trades, they can/should/must deal with the call backs and warranty the work same as any good tradesman.
Had HD do some window work on my house during a busy time for me (better half insisted). Results were exactly as I expected (for shid). It was worth it because now when I'm a little behind on getting something done on my own house, I can laugh and say to her "either wait until things slow down and I can get to it, or go ahead and call one of the boxes -- ha ha ha ha ha!"
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
The guy across the street had HD do a 22 square tear-off. The guys showed up at 7, tore off, dumpstered, felted and shingled, cleaned up and were done by dark. The 8 guys were very professional and fast. The roof looks terrific and if it leaked, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.
I was employed by a solid surface countertop fabricator and we did Home Depot as an account. I even had a little HD identity card for installations. I know for fact, HD makes subs fix things, right or wrong customer or not, if the sub wants to continue to have the HD account. Believe me, EVERYONE wants the account. We fixed things very promptly and one guy even got a free top. Home Depot will not have an unsatisfied customer, they can't afford it and they've got enough muscle with their subs to make it so.
Kowboy
"Home Depot will not have an unsatisfied customer,"The joke thread is in the Tavern section
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Most of those I have known who do work for Home Depot do not make their regular rate and keep HD as a backup when work is slow. A friend of mine was called out to install some HD marble and the tile was scratched. So they returned it ot get some more and the contractor was told he would have to polish the scratches out.Another friend of mine who is absolutley the best tile man told me that places like HD sell seconds. He also told me that the tile is not near what he gets from his tile supplier.
http://www.freewebs.com/myroof/3 roofs and still not right. Althrough I am not sure about his complaints on the 3rd go around.But the first 2 where certianly bad.http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/home_depot_roofing.html"Ralph of West Palm Beach FL (01/18/06)
On 11/26/05 my wife and I had a Home Depot saleswoman come to our home to give us an estimate on a new roof which was needed due to hurricane damage. She stressed that Home Depot did not use contractors and that their workers were their employees. She also stressed that their workers were covered in case they were injured on the job while on my property."And many more.
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"We fixed things very promptly and one guy even got a free top"
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Pretty much sums that up.... When I install products I don't have to go back and fix "things".... but that just me. ;-)
Where to start...
Grant was kind in his comments. This isa one of the gawdawfull worst flashing jobs I have ever seen. Ugly was visible from the street tho.
Why buy something that looks like that crap?
The subs who are willing to work for HD are in general, the less experienced, guys who are trying to build new business, or the ones with substance abuse issues who can't get work elsewhere. This looks like to me a combination of young - no idea what a proper flashing is - and cheap rip-offs - tried to flash what was visible on dormer but ignored what was hidden on sidewall of same. the orners were all bacckazzwards, with laps and flaps facing the wrong way and depending on caulk to be water tight, but sloppy caulk job. Anytime you can see caulking and tar on a shingle roof, you know that they did things wrong. The house inspector missed this BAD!
The contract writer has no idea of some roofing terms. There is no gutter on a rake. gutter hangs from the eaves. a gutter apron would pronbably be a skirt that goes over the gutter back and under the eave trim to keep water running the right way, downhill, withoiut diverting it behind the gutter.
The original tile roof had to have had metal valleys, but no sign they were replaced according to contract.
All this is not worth spending too much time on though, other than to defame HD, because you and your family had no relationshgip with them. It is unlikely that the warrantee is transferrable. If you want it right, there is npo way yoiu want them to be doing it. They have shown that they are inccapable. They can't roof any better than I can type.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The previous owners ditched tiles for tar shingles? I think it was only naturally going to go downhill from there. ;)
Yikessssssss...didn't they get an engineers report before they bought that roof...I mean house?
Just looking at it quickly (I gotta get to sleep) the first thing I'd have done would have been to build a cricket behind the chimney..
and oh yeh...welcome to Breaktime.
Be well
andy...
I would like to have a word with him.
—Chuang-Tzu
Edited 9/17/2006 2:55 am ET by andybuildz
A chimney that smaall can live without a cricket if the flaashing isdone right, but they mention that it wsn,t done at all untill HD sent somebody baack out on it.Judging from the way that shingle immediately behind it rolls up, they probably jusst sshoved something in there with no proper prep like I&W.'Course, it don't leak when it ain't raining! LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"'Course, it don't leak when it ain't raining! LOL"When it's raining, it's too wet to fix it. When it's dry it's as good as any man's roof.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I was once asked to do some work for a company that was trying to start it's " Install Division". The big boss had been to a seminar about how installed was the future and how every lumber yard and supplier needed to "get in the game".
So, at one of our early meetings, we talked price. I gave them a list. It was the rate I shoot for, broken down by item and on an XL spreadsheet. Their Competition was a Trimmer/Supplier who was known for being the cheapest around. So, on the first job, in an effort to:
a. Steal a job from him
b. Protect their material prices
They cut 20% off of my price list. The thinking was that by protecting their material prices they didn't have to admit they were the most expensive around. Plus, they had enough profit to pay me what I wanted off my regular list anyway.
No harm no foul. to them anyway.
I tried to explain the danage they were doing by agreeing to install at what amounted to 60% of normal rate. They ddin't understand.
I walked. I also know that two years later they closed down their installs, Trim, Kitchens, stairs, the whole thing. The problems were many to include no one taking charge and mass confusion that caused huge installer turn over, customer satisfaction problems and liability problems.
I learned to roof a long long time ago when I was working for a roofing and siding company. The standard operating procedure was that the salesmen sold the roofing and siding jobs. The Supervisors scheduled all the needed materials, Dumpsters, etc, etc.......................................
The roofers, crews from Brazil and Paraguay and eastern europe came and put on roofs.
Then, the job supers and salesmen where left to fix whatever was wrong. things like flashing, skylight leaks, bad valleys.
I learned more about properly installing a roof in six months than some guys learn in a lifetime. All from fixing others bad roofing.
Problem? This guy was THE BIGGEST roofing contractor around for years.
Home Depot is an easy target because it's so big and so visable, but it has a whole bunch of company.
In our current business climate, just about anyone can buy a nice clean truck, have some cards and stationary printed, a few embroidered polo's and get a big insurance policy and they are in business.
Then all the work they sell, they get some subcontract crews to come install it. Usually soemone without enough experience to get the job on their own. Or, maybe some guy with a ton of experience offset by his need be drinking by 1 PM every day. Or maybe an ok roofer that works 12 hours a day but needs to spark up a fatty every hour.
But mostly, a bunch of guys, usually from another country and here on the sly, who learned that they could make more nailing down roofs than they could mowing lawns. So, after working for someone for two months, off they go.
That roof is garbage and I would have never signed off on it. I would think if pushed hard enough HD will fix it just to avoid the bad press.
But the truth is, that roof could have been put on by any number of large reputable contractors I know.
Same could be said about framing in lots of places as well as trim, siding, flooring etc, etc.....................................
A very sad indictment of a chosen profession.
" needs to spark up a fatty every hour."enlighten me please on the vernacular here?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" needs to spark up a fatty every hour." = Smoke a Joint every hour.
whew! I like a large sort of woman, but every hour would leave me in bad shape for roofing anything more than a doll house
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Was the roof inspected by a local building inspector?
Thanks to all for your comments; you confirmed what I thought...The roof warranty was apparently transferable, since my ILs were able to collect from HD for the improperly flashed chimney. I don't know who did the warranty work - if it was the original contractor or someone else.The house was inspected by the Home Inspector during the sale process; however, my MIL says that the HI didn't pay much attention to the roof, saying "it's a new roof with a 10-year warranty on the workmanship; if it's going to have problems, it will be within that 10-years", or words to that effect.I don't know if the new roof was inspected by a BI after it was laid.Someone mentioned that the original tile roof would have certainly had metal valley flashing; is there any way to prove this after it's been torn off. In other words, if we tore off the new cut valleys, could we tell if metal valleys had been on the prior roof?I don't know why the tile was replaced. I would bet that the previous HOs thought that a new comp shingle roof would add resale value to the house. Either that, or they were having leaks and just decided to get a new roof rather that try to find someone experience with tile to address just the specific problem areas.Appreciated the joke about HD not being able to afford unsatisfied customers. True, they have clout with their contractors, but the clout is in the wrong direction. Low cost, speed, get in get out get on to the next unsuspecting schmuck. I doubt you'll ever see a HD project manager telling his roofer/sider/cabinet installer "no, this isn't acceptable. We need to have better quality from you." That eats into profits.How much of a PITA would it be now for a competent roofer to correct just the flashing details?Thanks again to all
Was the roof inspected by a local building inspector?
I've seen so called inspectors pass a roof before with the starter and first course in line with each other.
Inspection has to be done with a qualified and competant inspector.
How many do you know?
We have about one out of seven in my town. (maybe 1 1/2)
I was talking about the city building inspector. If they did not have a city building building inspection then I would wonder about if they folowed the city requirements. If they did get the proper permit then the city inspector's name was signed on the inspection.
I was talking about the city building inspector.
I was too.