Hi, all,
I have really enjoyed listening to what your advice is on many subjects. Here’s a question that I have been trying to find a good resolution with.
We are a small company (all two of us :), and do our best to have a reputation for performing high-quality work, but are relatively new to the business world. We are working on a job now for a lady who had a house built for her in ’93. The house (and a lot of the ones in that neighborhood) was built poorly at best, now containing a tremendous amount of rot. Most of the brick mold in some areas feel like painted sponges. We are replacing the windows as some of the sashes are completely disintegrating from the glass, and certainly no “insulation” in the double panes. The front of the house has quite a bit of decorative trim that is rotting in some areas. The zbar is, in some areas, way too big, and other places, too small. We really could replace almost every piece of trim on the front of the house and a significant on the back.
The problem is that she doesn’t want to spend a fortune, but does want to sell within the next year or two. She hasn’t said this but I am wondering if the reason that we are doing the work is so that a home inspector will not have a problem with the house (everything inside of it seems to be okay, but certainly bottom dollar). She wanted PVC trim (brickmold, quarter-round, and 1×6’s), which are expensive, but won’t ever rot.
The problem that I am struggling with is what extent would a home inspector classify as a problem? She doesn’t want to spend a lot of money on the project (other than PVC trim :), but she wants the problem fixed. For example in a 7′ vertical board, there is a 6″x1″ section that is rotting out where a 1×6 butts into the vertical board under a window. We replaced those boards. Then, there is under the front door (see pic), that is rotted out on the right side (you really can’t see it). The other pics are of under the picture window in the front. I essentially rebuilt the underside of the window with only PVC material, and everything that was still wood, I put a ton of primer on it, and then flashing tape as a final means to keep the water out.
I know that one cannot hide these from a home inspector. If nothing else, the difference of about 5 coats of paint and something a little less than that number in coats of crummy caulking, vs the newly painted and good caulking of the new boards.
What would your recommendations be? Thoughts?
Thank you!
J
Replies
She needs to realize fixing it right will sell the house quicker and with much less hassle than trying to "cheap patch" the current bad areas.
Want to get things by the home inspector? Do it right! Often cheaper too!
Here's a second vote for doing whatever is the right thing to do. It really will be less expensive in the long run.
And when a 16 year-old house has that much rot, at that high and protected (under an eave) level, I start to look for the cause. And generally, I start looking at the roof.
It's impossible to tell from your pictures, where the root of the problem is. But water is getting in, and not getting back out. Find both places, and fix them. Both of them.
Then, when the water intrusion problem is gone, you can replace what's been damaged.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
The "right" thing to do is to inform her that there is some underlying reason, probably several, for the assorted rot problems.
Patching with PVC trim and smothering everything else with caulk and new paint isn't going to solve the problem. It may obscure the problem areas for now, but it's likely that there are other unseen problems (a nice mold colony in the walls perhaps) that will eventually emerge and someone in the future will need to address (quite possibly her if an inspector identifies them and potential buyers request repairs).
I would, at a minimum, let her know that the work she is currently paying for is just a half measure.
If you are comfortable selling "flipper" services, so be it. With any luck, your name won't be associated with what someone in the future might percieve to be less than excellent work.
Hi, guys!
Thank you for the posts. I really want to do top-notch work. I will upload pics later today of the house. The areas with the rot really don't have any substantial eaves over them (either they're too high, or there are none).
We will be talking with her. As we do the work, to me it seems as if this really should be permanently fixing the problem. The areas that are rotting out on the decorative boards are very visibly areas that water is probably just sitting there (again, I'll post some pics tonight). When we pull the boards off to be replaced (except for the overhang that extends over the garage a few extra feet, where we cut the siding and replaced that with concrete board), the siding has been perfect - no rot. We did find a 1 1/2" gap in the t&g siding behind one of the trim boards, and covered that with flashing tape, as well as any other siding gaps that we have come across.
Thank you all very much for your help/suggestions!
J
Here are some more pics (sorry for the delay). On the two of the casement that is rotted out really bad, it looks like I didn't get the eave (or no eave on that part) in the photo.
Do you have any ideas what might have caused the rot? (it is highlighted in the photo with red blocks)
Thanks alot!
J
As previously stated, there is more rot/mold? underneath the surface damage.I wouldn't want to be the person buying that place with only the new lipstick covering up the hidden damage.And that is a phrase and a half... "covering up".Will you be fixing the underlying problem(s), or just involved in the cover up operation ?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Hi there,Thank you for your reply. When I pulled those boards off, there was almost no other rot and certainly no mold that I saw in the siding or framing. Right above the garage door, the siding was rotted out there, and I replaced that with hardi.Whenever I was able to see framing, I always checked to see if it looked rotted or moldy, and it always looked really solid.Thanks, J
Most of your red blocks in photo 4 are at cuts/intersections in trim to trim/trim to roof. Unpainted when cut a sure spot for sponging water up into the end grain of the trim. Had they painted when they cut and b/4 putting it up-might have helped.
Beveling all horizontal members and cutting trim to in on bevel helps also to shed water. Hardly done anymore.
Nailing trim over siding grooved or not is another sure fire way to introduce water behind trim. Quick install-problems later. Pay now or pay more later doesn't seem to phase 'em into doing it right in the first place.
The bottoms of the sash indicate a lost seal from the glazing to wood. Any idea if these were Craftline or ..........damn, name escapes me......windows. A couple brands I've seen unclad sash were notorious for failure even after 7-8 yrs. Crapline being one-no longer in bizness-no wonder. Some of these had marginal seals-usually small vinyl cut short. Some relied on other methods of seal-done incomplete. Openings just waiting to capture every drop that went by.
In 89, Marvins had some bad wood treatment that let to unclad failures like yours. However, I believe thay had changed suppliers by 93.
Believe me, if you scour some of the 70's, 80's and 90's neighborhoods you can come up with whole blocks of decay.
Painters keep caulking and painting, never opening their mouths. When they do, some of the fixes are just to the areas at the decay, never looking for the source. Another 7 yrs and the repairs fail because of the lack of investigation and correction.
best of luck.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hi, there Calvin,Thank you very much for your reply. That was what I was thinking on the rot issues. On this level of quality construction, I would be, too, very surprised about priming the end grain of cuts. We replaced it with PVC, so there shouldn't be a problem there again. We replaced the sill on one window, and put a coat of primer and two coats of paint onto every side and end grain.The bevel is a great idea. That will be definitely something that I will do.The windows were Herd (hurd??)Thanks!J
Hey you're welcome. Been seeing alot of rot repair in the last few yrs. Terribly not funny when the places are less than ten yrs old. 80/100 yrs, you kind of expect it. 10/20, no excuse. Hack bldg is so much more than poorly fitted mitres.
People want to repair it (sometimes) and all of a sudden you are the boogie man. Well why does it cost so much? Done wrong maintained wrong and / or ignored and you want me to cheap it out now? yeah right.
If you have time, get ready for all the repairs that will bloom in the near future on many of those window replacement/vinyl my shabby house jobs that booned in the 90's. Man, there'll be some work.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
>>"Do you have any ideas what might have caused the rot? "Yes, I do.Water.Water is getting in someplace where it should not be able to get in.And that same water is unable to get out through the place where it should normally be able to get out.I certainly can't speak to the details of all of the areas that you highlighted in your picture. But you showed the bottom corner of a window, which had rot to the sash, the exterior sill, and the apron.I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that the water is actually entering at the top of the window -- or maybe (but not likely) halfway down the side. It then runs down the unseen side of the jamb, and tries to get out when it hits the flashing pan beneath the sill/stool.But something tells me that there is no flashing pan, and even if there is, that the underside of the sill has been caulked thickly -- and that is what is keeping the water in.
Is there proper drip cap above the window's top trim? Is the horizontal seam in the T-111 siding properly flashed with Z-strip?Has the drip cap or the Z-strip been improperly caulked?Is there any way to know if the windows have any flashing at all on the sides?I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Here is a pic of my lastest rot. House is about 2 years old, bank owned. Never been occupied.
Vinyl siding, sorry excuse for house wrap and no type of flashing.
3rd try for another picture