I just found a course on www.pcdi.com for becoming a home inspector. We’re planning a owner/builder. Woudl being a home inspector be worth it? Can you learn something like that online?
I’m sure you’d need to know codes but how do you actual BECOME a HI? I think it’d be worth the $800 investment if the bank would allow us to HI our own home but I don’t think they would. We have three years before even thinking of breaking ground. I’d like to educate myself as much as possible during that time.
It wouldnt’ be a bad part time job either though right?
Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
Replies
I think you would be better off looking to a local university or community college and finding construction (home) related courses.
I've read your homebuilding thread. I would not want to disuade you from your dream but I would caution you to proceed with care. The true art to general contracting is the ability to coordinate with knowledge. To do that you need a good stable of quality subcontractors and the experience on how to put them together to produce an ordered project. It isn't rocket science but it's not easy either.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I had a HI license but let it expire. Just wasn't my thing... If you are serious, check out the local community college. Either way, you can learn some good stuff because the whole thing is really based on recognizing common house problems and failures. Also check out your state/local HI laws and licensing requirements. Another thought is that they have software available to make the whole process much easier - call it a 1000 Q checklist that tailors (reduces) itself as you answer the questions. Look for posts here from Bob Walker - he is our resident HI expert. I forget what his "screen name" is.
It sounds like you may be confusing Home Inspector with Building Inspector. Home Inspectors generally do inspections of homes that are being bought or sold, while Building Inspectors inspect new construction/renovations/remodels to ensure that minimum code/safety standards are met.
I don't think being a Home Inspector is a bad credential, but I don't know how it would benefit you as you plan to build, except to give you some very basic construction/code knowledge. I would think you would be better served by taking some courses in the trades at a local technical college.
Even if you're certified as a Home Inspector, you'll still have to have the stages of your project inspected by the local Building Inspector as required by your jurisdiction.
(Also, a home inspection usually costs around $300, at least in our area, so an $800 Home Inspector course wouldn't necessarily be cost-effective, unless you do plan to make at least a part-time job out of it.)
Just my 2 cents...
Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize the BI and HI were different. Thanks for pointing that out, now I know :) We are planning for three+ yrs of planning before breaking ground. I feel confident that's a significant amount of time to take on this project.Crystal
My job as a mother is to work myself out of a job.
I think you would benefit by having an independent person inspect your house. He/she will see things that you don't. And, if you get a good contractor that you have a good relationshiop with, you might be less than objective in finding errors.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
around here we think of BI as government workers that could not get a job at wally world, and HI and those that could not get a job with the government.. 2+3=7
HEY - I RESENT THAT REMARK.... My father retired after 25 years of service at Wal-Mart, then worked as a home inspector, and now works as a building inspector.
;-)
Well, his 25 years at Walmart make him more qualified than most of our building inspectors.....View Image
Why I decided not to become a home inspector:I considered becoming a home inspector. At first, it seemed like easy money: take a few hours, give the house a once over, write it up and you're done. Then I began to talk to people. It turns out that home inspectors can assume liability if they miss something. (An inspector missed a flashing issue on a chimney. He had to pay for the damages out of pocket to the tune of $5000. Another inspector didn't note a moisture issue in the crawl space. He and the realtor split the $2000 repair cost. Etc, Etc...)."But they weren't doing their job," you say. And you are correct. They should have caught and noted those things. So what has happened as a result? I've been seeing a new trend. (I see a lot of inspection reports because they call me to complete the punchlist before the house closes).The trend is this: the price and quality of home inspections has gotten drastically higher in the past 3 years. It is not uncommon for people to pay $2000. The inspection report is very detailed (if a light bulb is out, the entire fixture is called into question). If there is anything even marginally questionable, it is noted as a problem on the report. For instance the report reads "water penetration in NE corner of roof." The buyer is freaked out thinking the roof is leaking, the seller is worried the buyer will back out. I get there and crawl up into the attic and see a 10 year old water stain on the plywood. So eventually the house sells, and everything closes. The new owners move in and find a few "quirks." (The back gate doesn't latch, the garage door opener is not working, several of the outlets are loose and can't hold a plug well). Well, they just spent $2000 for an inspector to find these sorts of problems. So who do they call? The inspector, because it is his fault for missing the gate, garage door opener, and the outlets.. So I go out there and tighten a few screws on the gate, tweak the beam on the opener, install some new outlets, and the inspector gets the bill. The inspector thinks, "Boy these people are very demanding. If I am going to be liable for a gate not latching, I will just have to raise my rates in case I miss something and to give an even more detailed inspection."The inspector raises his rates to $2500 and then puts clauses in the report. "Furnace filter appears to need changing. Seek qualified technician to diagnose furnace operation. Underground sewer not accessable, seek qualified plumber to inspect. It just seemed to me that the trend in Seattle is more a game of avoiding liabilities and lawsuits. Plus I don't enjoy attics, crawlspaces and steep shake roofs. So I decided not to add Home Inspection to the list of services I provide.--Andy
Maybe it's a regional thing, but when we bought our house last winter the HI's contract clearly stated that they assume ZERO liability.View Image
"contract clearly stated that they assume ZERO liability"
You can write it on paper, but that doesn't mean that it's worth anything. I don't think that you can sign away your liability completely.
You're right. But I'm pretty sure that a certified home inspection in MA is just an opinion, unless I'm mistaken.View Image
>>You're right. But I'm pretty sure that a certified home inspection in MA is just an opinion, unless I'm mistaken.Certified?That's just a word, it doesn't have any real meaning in the HI context, except people seem to think it means something.And yes, much of what a home inspector does is give opinions: "here's a problem, here is my opinion as how significant it is."
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Bob,
I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't knocking HI's with my post. The one who inspected our house last January was awesome. When my father (our real estate agent) told me we should have a HI, I kinda scoffed, thinking 'what's he gonna see that I don't see?" A lot. He pointed out stuff that I probably wouldn't have noticed for a couple months, if at all, and it's because he knew just where to look. Granted everything he found was stuff I didn't have a problem with and would be addressed anyway since we're were tearing half the place down anyway. But, what if......View Image
I got my real estate license 3 1/2 years ago and when I took my classes one instructor stated "all new homes should be inspected by a private home inspector hired by the Buyer of the home".I scratched my head and said "why would a new home need to be inspected".There are a number of reasons and one of the things that comes up apparently is a home inspector will determine that the electrical outlets have not been wired in properly.Apparently with some electrical outlets a "voltage drop" occurs when the wire is "back stabbedd" rather then installed the old school way with the wires forming a loop and then held down with the brass or silver screws on the side of the outlet.This is kind of a controversal issue and builders are "madder then hops" when the Buyer asks for all electrical outlets in the home to be re-worked.When it comes to electricity people get frightened and things get kind of emotional..^^^^^^"and that's all I've got to say about that"
What do you do when the HI says you can't back stab outlets, but the licensed sparky says the job meets code and the fixtures are listed for that method?
I'd be madder than hops too.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Home inspectors take the position that their evaluation is based upon safety and code is secondary. The end result is Buyers end up walking away from the home they wanted based upon the home inspection.When one of these controversial issues comes up probably many times the Builder takes the position the house is built to code and you can "take a hike" - "I'm not changing anything".I think some Builders are refusing to allow Home Inspections.The Buyer loses any money he's spent to date (i.e. appraisal, inspection fee, etc).It's a shame..^^^^^^"and that's all I've got to say about that"
Probably debatable, but code is the minimal requirement. There may be safer and better ways to do something. This is what the HI's are taught. Code means squat to an HI.
>>"Probably debatable, but code is the minimal requirement. There may be safer and better ways to do something. This is what the HI's are taught. Code means squat to an HI."
Don't mean to touch off a war here but are you kidding me? So if I build a house and expect to get paid for it, I have to do it in a way that meets some arbitrary "safety" requirements of whatever HI happens to inspect it? And these requirements are handed to me after the fact?
No offense, but you guys are smokin somethin funny.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
No wars here, just a discussion.
"So if I build a house and expect to get paid for it, I have to do it in a way that meets some arbitrary "safety" requirements of whatever HI happens to inspect it? And these requirements are handed to me after the fact?"
To answer your question from the point of view of an HI, Yes. This is what we were taught when I went through the HI class (not that I agree or disagree with it).
I've got a couple of question to show you my thinking before I get lambasted...
One, are there things that you already do that go over and above the code book because you feel that it's a "better way"?
Two, Why aren't codes consistent from city to city and state to state? For example, why does one city condone Romex but most of the cities around me (Chicago) don't? There's always a best way to do anything, why doesn't the code book always reflect that?
The HI just learns what he feels is the best way to do things and that's what he reports. HI's write In My Honest Opinion (IMHO) all over their reports for just this reason.
To your defense, most HI's are not experts in any specific area. It's kind of a jack-of--all-trades-master-of-none thing. If you feel that what you did is right and you can justify it to the buyer then who cares what the HI says. If it's something that is in your area of expertise, then you should be able to prove your case.
Joe
>>"I've got a couple of question to show you my thinking before I get lambasted...
>>"One, are there things that you already do that go over and above the code book because you feel that it's a "better way"?
Sure. But certainly not everything. The concept that some HI is going to tell my customer that he knows a better way and meeting code alone is somehow not enough (unless specified that way up front) is bizarre. That's what architects and engineers are for, not HI. Give me a set of plans and specifications to bid on, and I'll make it any way you want it above and beyond code. Come behind me after the fact and you're in outer space.
>>"Two, Why aren't codes consistent from city to city and state to state? For example, why does one city condone Romex but most of the cities around me (Chicago) don't? There's always a best way to do anything, why doesn't the code book always reflect that?"
Because codes are made by groups that include a lot of axes to grind. Think about your own question -- why is romex OK in a three story or lower building in anytown USA, but not Chicago. Chicago and its surrounds have funny electricity or something? Ever stop to think that the people who get paid to install the stuff by the hour might have something to do with local requirements like that? Does that make it a "better" way?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
The logic of using a home inspector falls through a little when you're talking about a new home. He's there more to make sure that you (the builder or GC) are not skimping and/or using shotty materials. A debate between a home inspector and a builder on best practices is a waste of time in my mind - assuming both sides of the argument are based on acceptable but differing practices. The bigger bang for the buck is when you're buying a used home and you (the buyer) have little or no knowledge on home construction and maintenance. In other words, I see your point about this being "bizarre" if you're referring to new construction. If I were having a new house built, I wouldn't consider using an HI unless I felt I was getting screwed and I needed a second and relatively inexpensive opinion.
Again, I still feel that code is the minimal requirement for building a home. It's the threshold where a building inspector says "No, this isn't good enough" and you have to make it better. That being said, you (the builder) always have the option to build "better" if you so choose. The concept of "better" is mostly subjective and is obviously subject to opinion. This opinion is what the HI is paid to provide. The problem is that the HI has an opinion on pretty much everything. And what $ucks for you is that if you, as the builder, can't make a sufficient argument that your way is acceptable then you're out the money to fix it and the HI has no risk whatsoever.
You even state in your post that the codes are subject to opinions and influences of the policy makers. That being said, the HI should ignore code and consult his own knowledge base to formulate his opinions. So, I bet there are cases where the code is "wrong" and the HI is "right" and you'd probably agree if you weren't the one that had to pay to fix it. ;)
>> I have to do it in a way that meets some arbitrary "safety" requirements of whatever HI happens to inspect it? And these requirements are handed to me after the fact?>>No offense, but you guys are smokin somethin funny.I view my job as exploration and explanation and education: I tell my buyer what is going on in the home and what the implications are and my buyer/cleint makes his own decision as to whether he will accept something.I use codes to inform my views, but in most houses older than several years, I don't know when particular work was done or when the particular jurisdiction adopted changes, so I don't inspect to "code."I don't open j-boxes so I rarely ever call out back stabbed receptacles, but when I see them hanging out of a box, I'm primarily calling out the incomplete work and shock hazard, and I'll mention back stabbing as a lower quality approach and one which can indcate amateurish workmanship.I never tell a seller what to do
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>"I view my job as exploration and explanation and education: I tell my buyer what is going on in the home and what the implications are and my buyer/cleint makes his own decision as to whether he will accept something.
>>"I use codes to inform my views, but in most houses older than several years, I don't know when particular work was done or when the particular jurisdiction adopted changes, so I don't inspect to "code."
OK, I could live with that approach. Have a sit down with the HI and the customer to go over findings and then discuss implications in a rational way.
The back stabbed connection is a bad example, I think, because many good sparkys won't do it that way. But I'll tell you that when I sub out a job and the sparky does it to code using listed fixtures, and I didn't specify any particular way of doing it ahead of time, who am I to go behind his/her work and say not good enough. On what basis can anyone make that statement -- got a UL lab in your basement to test these things or just anecdotes?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I think its sad when builders are sucked into HI disccussions and the resultant who's right.
Phil makes a wonderful point about the various levels of craftsmanship and the need to specify. He's describing the default condition, other procedures carry costs and/or consequences.
Bob also is on top of things in his presentation.
But the issue is not about either. It's about the stupid, uneducated buyer spending hundreds of thousands on something he has no clue about.
The Hi is simply a source of information gathered by one person about that one property. But he also compares level of craftsmanship to some degree. His story, like what Jmadsen says in #38, have little meaning in new construction OTHER THAN negotiating a better deal.
They're just playing the price game with a misinterpreted report they won't show you. It is the buyer's motive to make you feel like you have to apologize over some damn thing - anything. If you built to code and reasonable expectations of craftsmanship, you should feel good about it. If you feel you don't have apologize with a discount, don't.
>>"I think its sad when builders are sucked into HI disccussions and the resultant who's right."
Sorry to make you sad. Actually not, but sorry you're sad.
>>"If you feel you don't have apologize with a discount, don't."
I think you're missing the point. Has nothing to do with voluntary discount. Customer can hold up payment citing the HI report. Choices are (1) convince the HI that he/she is mistaken (reasonble HI, OK; many are not) (2) take tail between legs and do whatever ridiculous change the HI "suggests" in the inspection "opinion" (3) go to court and fight with the customer about it (are you kidding?). None of those choices are acceptable.
All I'm trying to get at here is that a home built to code is not a starting point -- that's what's required. Can you give me some forinstances where code isn't good enough and some well backed sources to back that up? Not personal opinion or isolated anecdote, I mean real world code accepted practices that have been peer reviewed and found that more is needed. I can't think of any. (and I'm not talking about, say, crawlspace ventiliation where code requires that it be built a certain way, but there's debate about doing it totally differently -- but the different, better way won't pass code -- I'm talking about where you build it to code, but code is insufficient).
Biggest problem I have with code issues are robotic enforcement of it without having anyone actually think about why it says what it says (to the credit of some BIs, that is not always the case, but it happens enough). To layer arbitrary HI requirements on top of that is more than I can stomach.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Sorry, but this,
Customer can hold up payment citing the HI report. Choices are (1) convince the HI that he/she is mistaken (reasonble HI, OK; many are not) (2) take tail between legs and do whatever ridiculous change the HI "suggests" in the inspection "opinion" (3) go to court and fight with the customer about it (are you kidding?). None of those choices are acceptable.
leads me to ask, "This is a selling contract issue. If new construction, what part of this guy's contract allows HI's to come in after the fact and hold up payment? And how did it get there?" If existing construction, I can see an issue with certain livability issues. But the previous example you used doesn't fall in there. That, I believe, is still a negotiating issue over price.
What kind of house or situation are you talking about where the HI comes in and allows a delay in payment or than the usual escrow and inspection issues?
The closest I can relate is where one HI said I had to put 3/4" sheetrock under the stairs if I was going to store anything there. Note a code issue in that city, but a recently mentioned issue nationally a few years back. BTW, I was storing extra ceramic tiles there in an access I created in the back of a closet. He was probably that picky because that was ALL he could find. Nevertheless, the buyer blew him off and it was no issue.
On the other hand, as a buyer, the HI told me something was going on behind the fake stucco on the house I was buying in Denver. He said he couldn't tell what, but something. I couldn't see anything and ignored his warning. 6 months later, the damage became visible and cost me 20 grand to fix. I could have made it a negotiating point IF I had listened to the HI.
I got no issue with HI's. They got their place - just like any other tool. Use them right and they're quite useful. Put them where they don't belong and...
>>"If new construction, what part of this guy's contract allows HI's to come in after the fact and hold up payment?"
No part of it. There's the rub. If you want to go to court over it, you win, hands down. Personally I'd rather have root canal on all my uppers, but that's always an option. If it got ridiculous, I guess I'd go there, but what would you do if the customer says, hey my HI says blah blah blah and I either want you to change it or I'll deduct x$$$ from the final payment. (real world example, HI didn't think the fittings on the boiler were good enough for some reason. Wanted me to have them all changed to something else. Why? Who knows? In the end I didn't do it because it was just so over the top, but it made for a lot of bad feelings)
>>"one HI said I had to put 3/4" sheetrock under the stairs if I was going to store anything there"
Did he/she tell you why? Should you really use 5/8" fire rated rock to serve the intended purpose? Should the buyer get the benefit of that if it's not part of the "advertised" square footage. Glad to hear the buyer blew him off on that, but that's the kind of thing that can queer a deal. All the guy really had to tell the buyers is that storing flammable things under steps can be a danger in the event of a fire. Don't store stuff that could burn under the steps. If you want to store stuff that can burn under the steps, here's what can be done to reduce the danger . . . . If he did that the buyer gets the advice they need and it doesn't potentially screw up your deal.
>>"I got no issue with HI's. They got their place - just like any other tool. Use them right and they're quite useful. Put them where they don't belong and..."
I have no issue with the HI I use. I've bought a lot of places to rehab over the years and the guy I use (who is also an engineer) provides insight and advice that are worth far more than I pay him. On the other hand, I've been on the dirty end of the stick when an HI comes in and basically screws up a deal for inexplicable reasons, or causes the customer to doubt your work likewise for inexplicable reasons. Arbitrary requirements beyond code have no place in my book.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
"All I'm trying to get at here is that a home built to code is not a starting point -- that's what's required. Can you give me some forinstances where code isn't good enough and some well backed sources to back that up? Not personal opinion or isolated anecdote, I mean real world code accepted practices that have been peer reviewed and found that more is needed. "
No, I don't think anyone is saying that the code is insufficient in any case. But code is the starting point, the bare minimum, anything less is insufficient. Anything more is gravy. You said yourself that you do things better than code, why? You think that there is a better/safer/stronger/more durable way. The HI has an opinion on all of those little things that are "better" than code.
If you were a policy maker in your town, is there anything you would change? From the standpoint of an HI, they don't care what town they're in. In their mind, they're going off of the "code" that they would want if they were the policy maker.
>>Can you give me some forinstances where code isn't good enough and some well backed sources to back that up? Yeah, design and testing of furnace vent systems.Code calls for following the manufacturers''s instructions, the manufacturers call for testing draft with a match or smoke, when (i) a draft gauge costs less than $35 and (ii) ANSI requires that the draft be at least 0.01"water column and smoke won;'t tell you when you reach that mark.And design generally of furnace vents. The manufacturers specs tell you to use the GAMA tables, the GAMA tables themselves specify they don't work in all situations.In my area, the BI's allow a 2x4 or 2x6 on edge as a handrail, even though the code as written forbids that practice.I call them out as a "non-conforming local practice" and recommend an upgrade.That is an example of where, as an HI, I believe am doing _my_ client a service in recommending an improvement over what local builders are doing and which is accepted by local AHJs.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>"Code calls for following the manufacturers''s instructions, the manufacturers call for testing draft with a match or smoke, when (i) a draft gauge costs less than $35 and (ii) ANSI requires that the draft be at least 0.01"water column and smoke won;'t tell you when you reach that mark. . . . And design generally of furnace vents. The manufacturers specs tell you . . . ."
Before taking this argument any further (hope you guys are enjoying this as much as I am -- no hard feelings), I have to know what UL listed water heater manufactuer says to test draft with a match and nothing else? And what code says follow the manufacturer's instructions for venting and nothing else about venting? Come on.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/7/2006 6:08 pm ET by philarenewal
Edited 3/7/2006 6:08 pm ET by philarenewal
As a realtor I am aware of a contract that fell through recently because the home inspector expressed concern regarding the electrical panel.I believe it was a federal pacific panel.The Buyers asked the Seller to replace the electrical panel and he refused and the deal went south. It would have cost $700 to $800 to have it updated.The home was built in the 1950's and I presume the panel was original.The Buyers were concerned for their safety and they walked away from a home they wanted. They lost some money (home inspection fee and possibly the appraisal, maybe even a small fee for termite inspection).I think it's a shame when things like this happen. It's great when the Home inspector finds something dangerous or life threatening. We all benefit from that..^^^^^^"and that's all I've got to say about that"
>>"I believe it was a federal pacific panel."
I concede on the FPE panel. No argument there. In my view of the world, seller shoud replace it. It's a known hazard and (HI guys out there help me out even though I've been lambasting you all afternoon), is there an HI that wouldn't tag that?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Our HI tagged the FPE panel, and I chose to accept the risk. He also tagged the under-sized AL wire feeding a wall-mount AC. I did NOT accept that one - got an allowance from the seller to replace it.
Like many in this thread, I value the HI for pointing out the areas of risk. Our house was "as-is" and I wanted to know what I was in for. Regardless of the "as-is" we still got a $1,500 allowance for 3 clear code / health & safety issues. Even if we had walked away the inspection becomes part of the public record so the seller knew they'd have to deal with the issues.
Glad to hear you had a good experience.
Now replace that FPE panel.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
FPE panel was replaced during the remodel (all part of the master plan <grin>)
FP Stab-lok panels have a terrible reputation, do a google search on them.My own view is that the guy in NY who has lead thew anti-FP crusade has overstated his case.I see them 3-4 times a month, and have never seen any higher incidence of problems in them than any other panels of that vintage.I know electricians who hold the same view and some who dislike themMy client disclosure is that it an area where there are strong, subjective opinions, I give them the case against and suggest that if they are concerned, to talk to their own electrician.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>I have to know what UL listed water heater manufactuer says to test draft with a match and nothing else?I was speaking of furnaces, and the one I just looked at was Lennox.Yeah, pretty stupid!>>And what code says follow the manufacturer's instructions for venting and nothing else about venting? Come on.Code always(?) ultimately defers to the manufacturer's instructionsAnd I'm enjoying the discussion as well!
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>"Code always(?) ultimately defers to the manufacturer's instructions"
Ok, I'm near surrender (getting tired and had a few drinks with my better half over dinner, so the towel's in the air) but before I get there, we both know there is way more to the code than follow the manufacturer's instructions (I'm too tired to look at it now, but off the top of my head there is minimum cross section per BTU input of the appliance, minimum height, specifications regarding horizontal distances and slope, number of bends, on and on. If a venting installation follows the code, as well as manifacturer's instructions, it will vent (laws of physics apply) unless something else in the house has not followed code (lack of combustion makeup air; lack of makeup air for kiitchen/bath fans, etc., etc.). When you perform your vent pressure test, in my eyes, you are not testing the vent (if it was built to code). You are testing the rest of the house for code to make sure there is draft in the vent.
I agree that holding a match to check venting (except for a quick check to see if it should be shut down before going any further) is stupid. All that really tells you is whether you might die from CO today, instead of maybe during the same week. But let me ask you this, when you run your vent pressure test, do you turn on the dryer, the kitchen fan, bath fan, etc.? If not, you're not doing a real test there either. All that stuff has to be installed to meet code as well. When it all is, it works. So your test really is not something beyond code, it is really a test to make sure everything does, in fact meet code.
OK, I give.
Inspect in good health.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
>>(I'm too tired to look at it now, but off the top of my head there is minimum cross section per BTU input of the appliance, minimum height, specifications regarding horizontal distances and slope, number of bends, on and on. Well, in this case, the manufacturers and code point to the GAMA venting, and the GAMA venting tables specify they are guidelines, that circumstances can affect actual performance and that the designer is responsible for actual performance. (See "User precautions" below)I have found many installations which "meet code" i.e., the GAMA tables, and yet don't function properly.>>If a venting installation follows the code, as well as manifacturer's instructions, it will vent (laws of physics apply) unless something else in the house has not followed code (lack of combustion makeup air; lack of makeup air for kiitchen/bath fans, etc., etc.). Er, not necessarily. First, read the User Precautions" below. Second, for the record, I have tested "code compliant" installations with open windows and no restrictions on makeup air which didn't vent properly, most likely (I think) because of wind turbulence on the particular home>>When you perform your vent pressure test, in my eyes, you are not testing the vent (if it was built to code). You are testing the rest of the house for code to make sure there is draft in the vent.Yes.My test is a performance test: "is the furnace venting properly," not "does the vent meet the GAMA venting table guidelines.I'm not sure what "testing the vent" could mean other than testing its performance, and as a home inspector, I'm trained to view the house as a set of interlocking systems, not a random collection of individual and "independent" thingsCurrent venting tables developed under contract to Gas Research Institute (GRI) using computer modeling Published Venting table disclaimer:LEGAL NOTICE: This information is, in part, a result of research performed by Battelle under the sponsorship of the Gas Research Institute (GRI). Neither GRI, members of GRI, nor any person acting on behalf of either: a.) Makes any warranty or representation, express or implied, with respect to the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of this information, or that the use of any apparatus, method, or procedures disclosed may not infringe privately owned rights;
or
b.) Assumes any liability with respect to the use of, or for any damages resulting from the any apparatus, method, or procedures disclosed User precautions for the Vent II software:"The user should realize that no safety factors have been included in the VENT - II calculation routines for vent capacities. The results will be reasonably accurate for new, well defined vent configurations under transient-cycling or steady - state conditions. However, the field performance of vent systems can be adversely affected by installation peculiarities, outside wind conditions, house tightness, leaky vents, other exhausting appliance, partial blockage of vent pipe, or other conditions. There fore, appliance vent designer should use good engineering judgment in making allowances for the various perturbations which may occur in the field.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>say not good enough.There are a lot of different approachs to home inspections and a lot of different standards used.And the way I do an inspection and the "standards" I use vary from customer to customer.The inspection I do for a young couple buying a fixer upper intending on creating some sweat equity is different tahn the inspection I do for a senior managament type with no interest in DYI.You seem to have a very fixed idea about what you find acceptable for your client; remember, when "your" client hires an HI, he is also the HI's client.You don't own the guy nor can you dictate the terms of that relationship.There are HI's who go over the line, but there are also builders who fall short of the line.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
>>"There are HI's who go over the line, but there are also builders who fall short of the line."
That I agree with. The whole argument seems to be about where that line is.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/7/2006 5:33 pm ET by philarenewal
"Apparently with some electrical outlets a "voltage drop" occurs when the wire is "back stabbedd" rather then installed the old school way with the wires forming a loop and then held down with the brass or silver screws on the side of the outlet."If a measured voltage drop is not a problem then why dont you just explain that to the home buyer.
"(NEC 210-19 FPN No. 4) in the National Electrical Code states that a voltage drop of 5% at the furthest receptacle in a branch wiring circuit is acceptable for normal efficiency. In a 120 volt 15 ampere circuit, this means that there should be no more than a 6 volt drop (114 volts) at the furthest outlet when the circuit is fully loaded. It also means that the circuit has a resistance that does not exceed 0.4 ohms."I have been around long enough to know that mistakes are made by everyone. Its just a part of the world we live in. The fact of the mater is in most states if your sparky wants to sign a letter stating that the electrical system is ok as is, and his insurance will cover if it isnt. Then the home home inspaector will be 100% fine with that. because he wouldnt have to then cover that portion of the home with his E&O insurance.
The thing about my Dad - god rest his soul - was a joke. Thought about before I wrote it and didn't think he'd mind - he had a sense of humor...
Re HI's responsibility/liability, here in NC their reports say that too. On the other hand, it it were true, then they would not need the "Errors and Omissions" insurance that they carry - not cheap by any means.
>>Re HI's responsibility/liability, here in NC their reports say that too. On the other hand, it it were true, then they would not need the "Errors and Omissions" insurance that they carry - not cheap by any means.Yes, people are only willing to pay enough for a few hours of an inspector's time. There is only so much one can do in those few hours, so you get what you pay for.I offer every one of my clients the choice of a limited inspection with limited liability for the going fee in the area, or an extended inspection with no limit on liability.Not one has chosen the 2nd.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Yea - one of the things that they taught us in HI class was that it was a "cursory" inspection - and to use that word in the report. I had to look that one up...
Well, they just spent $2000 for an inspector to find these sorts of problems
Sh!t, where is this? Around my neck of the woods (Omaha, NE), the home inspectors I use (I'm a realtor) for inspections run between $300-500. Not exactly something to sneeze at for 2-3 hours' work, but hardly $2K.
Jason
The Seattle area, (particularly it's McMansion suburbs) has a very high real estate value. A 2000 square foot homes on less tham a quarter acre routinely sells for half a million dollars. A 5000 square foot home on a bigger chunck of land gets much more. I recently completed a punchlist for one such home, and was impressed by the thouroughness of the inspection report (complete with digital potos, binder, and guarantee. I guess an inspection report costing thousands of dollars is seen as an investment by the buyer. That is not a lot of money to some folks out here, and they feel an extremely thourough report will give them peace of mind, and bargining chip in price negotiations. They think it will save them money in the long run. Often times it does. Sometimes it doesn't.--Andy
lol
>>around here we think of BI as government workers that could not get a job at wally world, and HI and those that could not get a job with the government.Around here, there are some contractors who have nothing but attitude, and others who have figured out that up to 400-500 referrals a year from each successful home inspector just might make it worth while respecting other folks and developing good working relationships.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Holy touche' Batman! lView Image
If the class you found is sponsored by a Florida agency (you're in FL, right?) then it's probably required for the home inspection license. That's the case here in Illinois, the license requires 72 hours of class time.
I took the class and received my license. It was my intent to work part time as a home inspector, but my background isn't in home construction. And unfortunately, the class that I took is just geared to passing the license test. The class taught me enough to pass, but not nearly enough to be a good/thorough home inspector. Which is scary, according to the state, I could perform inspections. But by no means did I personally feel that I could do a good job.
Part time home inspection would be tough. The costs are prohibitive. There are a lot of tools; ladders, gas detectors, etc. You have to advertise a lot, at least at first. You also have to have errors and omission insurance. Which for a newbie in the field ain't cheap.
Just my 2 cents.
Joe
In NC the way it works is you have to be an associate HI and assist a licensed HI for a certain # of hours before you can become a licensed HI. I'm thinking the hours requirement is something like 500, but I'd have to look it up. You can get around it if you have a GC's license.
In Illinois...
Just take the class, pass the test and pay the state $500. That's it.
You also need to take classes every year to keep up to date on any new information.
Yea, here in NC - there are the yearly update classes required too. Annual license renewal is $150. Here HI fees are usually in the $275 - $450+ range depending on the sq footage range.
All: Generally, I don't mind if a new home buyer brings in a HI - often they are helpful in finding little problems that I missed - and I really do want to build a great house. Gives the HO a better comfort level, and they always find some little things, which makes the HO feel like he got something for his HI money.
On the other hand, if a HI comes up with some crazy sheet - I can always just explain to the HO why it is crazy sheet and say "therefore, I'm not gonna do anything about that item." By that time I've normally built a pretty good repor with most HOs and they accept that. If that is not the case, and they push it hard enough, I can always go to my boss - the owner of the company and say "hey - it's gonna cost x$ to rectify this perceived problem" and he can make the call. Some we cut loose - like one lady who wanted the house exterior repainted because she didn't like the color - not a HI identified issue, but you get the idea. On another there were muddy water stains on the top edge of the interior of the crawl space foundation where it got wet during construction - maybe combined with a few dirty block that were laid - that was a ridiculous little issue - too trivial to take to my boss. Some people you can't please no matter what. I think in that case there was some discrepancy between the husband and wife as to weather they really wanted the house - it was a spec. The good news is that HI reports almost always say "needs to be investigated by a professional" (or similar); well guess what :-) (licensed and certifiable) and if it's not me, it's going to be the electrical, HVAC or plumbing contractor.
torn's right....two different animals completely.
Neither the twp. Building Dept (or the const loan bank) will give a hoot, what you (as a certified HI) or a HI (hired by you) thinks about the job.