I have been surfing a home inspection forum, just for expanding my mind and also to see pics of wierd problems. I know HI’s get beat up a lot here, but I gotta tell you that it’s very interesting to read their postings. They are a lot like us: most of them take their job seriously and are concerned about doing things right.
It is interesting, however, to read some of the questions they pose. Sometimes they really show their ignorance of home building. Fer instance, one guy posted a pic of a floor truss, open web, 2×4 flanges, with stamped metal webs. He wanted to know if he should write it up as a fault because it was top-chord bearing, and the bottom chord was not fastened to the structure.
And they sure have some interesting pictures. They really can show the stupid side of builders.
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
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And this ...
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"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Deleted #2 cuz the pic was so big.
Problems like this ...
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"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Whassup with that 70A breaker? The breaker is on, and it looks like the loop shorts out the two legs. Where are the arc marks? I am missing something here, fill me in.Bill
possible somebody used a 3 phase panel and the 70A breaker is the bridge between A and C legs... so it's not shorted it's lighting up the 3rd leg...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You be right.
I see three buss lugs at the top of the panel.
Dave
Whassup with that 70A breaker? The breaker is on, and it looks like the loop shorts out the two legs. Where are the arc marks?
IMERC's post about using a 3-phase panel is on the mark, but it's even stranger than that. Looks like the they're using the 2-pole 100A breaker on the top left to feed the panel, because I don't see any wires other than ground and neutral on the main lugs (top). So, it looks like they're using a a 3-phase, main lug panel to substiture for a single-phase, main breaker panel. The only question, then, is why are there separate neutral and ground conductors?
Bob
Found this on an English site. Posted by a guy (chap?) who is in customer service/warranty work for a conservatory company ... looks like sunrooms to me ... and he found this on a site visit. The installer, obviously not factory trained, installed the new conservatory wall across an existing window.
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"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
How do you suppose he's sealing the air leak between the wall that he butts up to the window? Maybe a big ole bead of silicone! That'd be my choice.
It may be the picture or the angle that the pic was taken from but the wall does not look plumb! But he did a nice job of notching out the trim for the wall to butt up to the brick, gotta give em credit for that!
Doug
Itlooks to me as if he did notch the sunroom side panel over the sill and over the lower sash.In thinking about the picture, it is weird, of course, but I'm not sure if (a) I'd even notice it and (b) whether it is "wrong"I'll note that there are few sun rooms in my area so I don't have the countless experiences with them to fine tune my "sun room construction detais sensor."
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
Yea - I had a HI list an ant hill in the yard in his inspection report... He also said that the faucet airators were cloged (I couldn't find any that were cloged) and went ahead and left one off. On that sink, he also said that the P-trap was leaking. Actually the "leaking" was caused by the ariator being off and there was water spraying all over the place. I just smile and say fine!!! Give me something easy (or non existant) to fix!!! Makes the buyer feel like he is getting something outa me... :-)
PS - I had a HI license, but decided not to do it once I really found like what it is like.
Yep, I'm a home inspector. I have learned more code as an inspector, than as a contractor. My typical attitude was performing work to the "intent" of the code. It worked for my dad, it doesn't leak/burn and I don't have spend a day waiting for some arrogant retiree to nit-pick the work that he is probably unable comprehend.
Well, part of this was right. There are incompetent people in every trade. I was one of those contractors, but didn't know it. How many contractors carry a code book in their truck? How many installers find "extra" parts when the installation is done?
I inspect new homes for clients and I am amazed at the lack of supervision and common sense. When is it okay to install an electrical receptacle in a bathtub surround? Answer: Never! Even GFCI protection will not negate a portion of the shock when the boom box hits the water. When is it okay to slice up an engineered truss for a furnace installation? Answer: Never!
I can only speak for California when I complain there is no continuing education for contractors, just an annual renewal fee. Whenever I find a gross violation, these deer-caught-in-the-headlight homeowners say "but, he's a licensed contractor."
See page 18 regarding my attached photo: http://jacuzzi.com/pdf/ENGBUILD.PDF
"It's OK, we'vbe always done it that way ...."
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
That same HI, on that same house also found some things that needed to be fixed: A head mortar joint in the brick foundation that wasn't fully full, a toe kick that was loose on kitchen cabinets, a track light that wasn't properly seated in the track - stuff like that. So the guy actually did provide the home owner a valuable service. Heck - If I was buying a home I'd get a HI - another set of eyes and all that. Get this: My wife hired a HI to check the house that I built for her and I :-) Maybe she could see that I was running on empty - essentially working 2 jobs...
Like you said though - every trade has it's bloopers - and I'll add, everyone makes mistakes - HI's included - hence the "Errors and Omissions" insurance.
Like you say though - sometimes I look in awe at stuff - like that pic at the beginning of this thread of the steps supported by concrete lentils - I think they are - I'd venture a guess that doing something like that wouldn't even enter the realm of consciousness of 98% of the pros here... It looked to be new construction too. And, it was the builder who was at fault as he didn't make sure the footings were in - unless he purchased a turn key foundation, and even still he should have been paying attention. Who knows - the house wasn't complete so maybe it was already on the tear-out list...
I learned a fair amount as a HI too, but probably not a heck of a whole lot since I didn't do it that long. Going in my idea was to make some extra money and learn more about my primary occupation. So, I accomplished a little of both. I decided though that I wanted to stay on the creative side of things - the deal where I end the day/week/year with completed homes that are there because of me... tangible results that will last for generations.
I not only carry a building code code book, but I have 2 - one in my jobsite trailer and one in my truck. The truck copy is all highlighted, and tattered. You will notice that my posts often contain code references. My state does not require continueing ed though - I wish it did, then my employer would have to pay for whatever classes I take - although they generally do, but I have to ask - like it's a favor or something... Part of my education is here :-) Ever looked at Piffin's tag line? BTW - My DW thinks BT is a waste of time ;-) I need to learn a lot more plumbing, elect & HVAC code though.
As far as lack of supervision, you are absolutely right - and certain types of workers and trades need more supervision than others. I consider myself a micromanager though. I try to make my presents bearable for workers though by, first, keeping up my end of the bargain - ie having whatever I'm supposed to provide on the job so that things can get done, and I occasionally go get an arm load of 2x4s for some framing I want added, or give the HVAC guy a sawsall blade - something little like that so that guys will understand I'm not there to impede progress... Still I can't be every where at once - heck - I can't even be on the job all the time - paperwork and such.
BTW - supporting tubs is one of my hot buttons, and our BIs don't check that... even on the regular units that don't come with instructions it speaks directly to your "common sense" reference.
Maybe I'll get back into it when I retire and want a part time job... The idea would be to get paid for what I know rather than how hard I work...
Just so we're clear on the original intent of this thread ... I wanted to point out that there are HI's who take pride in their work and try to do a good job. This was not supposed to be a pick-on-the-HI thread.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The home inspector profession is a necessity for the home buyer. The key is to get a good home inspector. Just like someone wrote. There are hacks in all professions, even in mine, where doing a thorough, professional, honest, and ethical job should be the norm.
>I inspect new homes for clients and I am amazed at the lack of supervision and common sense. When is it okay to install an electrical receptacle in a bathtub surround<
The contractor probably thought the homeowner might want to plug in a toaster while soaking in the tub. Or plug in a lava lamp for those romantic moments.
We really do consider inspectors important enough for a specially appointed communications position in our custom design / build company. Some have seen his pic before....see attached.
the mexician get all the good jobs
A few years back, on a corporate relo, the relo company hired a home inspector for the buyout of my home. The HI reported a number of "issues" - sump pump not working properly, etc. Problem is, the house did not HAVE a sump pump. I'm convinced the HI never visited the house.
Of course, relo company insisted that this report had to be reported to all prospective buyers. I disagreed, since it clearly was not an inspection of my house. "Resolution" was to have a PE review the house and do an inspection, and give buyers both reports. The PE specifically stated that the problems reported by the HI were NOT present in the house.
Eventually sold, but it was a huge hassle and problem. Of course, everything related to that relo company was.
Lessons learned:
1. Hire ONLY PEs as home inspectors
2. Never deal with C**d*** or any of their subsidiaries
Interesting. Our company-provided relo company was Lexicon out of Atlanta, and they were very professional.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I give up. What's a PE? Best I can come up with is Private Executioner.BruceT
Professional Engineer, usually tested and licensed by the state in which he/she practices.
Typically carries their own insurance and, in the instances you read about here, can "sign off" on things so the local inspector can lay off the responsibility.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Thanks. I was thinking some kinda engineer, but structural, civil, etc. didn't fit.BruceT
A gunite pool in Florida that was drained to repair a crack in the wall. Apparently they forgot about the high water table. The inspector said it cost them about $10k to remove the pool and fill the hole.
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"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm gonna keep that pic.
People don't believe me when I tell them the pool may pop if left dry too long with no safety well or opening the hydrostatic valves at the bottom."No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
Super, I learned something new today.
Becoming a PE is in addition to the test they take for structural, electrical, civil or whatever they have thier degree in. A higher level, if you will.
Dave
Becoming a PE is in addition to the test they take for structural, electrical, civil or whatever they have thier degree in. A higher level, if you will.
Not quite - unless you were referring to the testing of home inspectors, not engineers.
In the US, engineers must be licensed to perform work that "affects public safety" or to refer to themselves as engineers or represent themselves as engineers to the public or "do engineering work". So a person must be licensed to call their company "Joe Blow Engineering", or to stamp drawings, etc.
The process is that one takes the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and becomes an Engineer in Training (EIT). After sufficient "engineering" work experience, which generally takes 7 to 10 years, one can take the Principals and Practices of Engineering exam, to become a Professional Engineer (PE). The P&P exam may be a general exam or may be specific to specialty (Civil, Mechanical, etc.) depending on the state.
A PE is required to produce an engineering report, such as a structural evaluation of a house. A home inspector is unlicensed in most cases, and there are no standardized testing requirements in many states. In the past, to become an ASHI home inspector, the first step is simply to pay money, and then you could claim to be an ASHI home inspector. It appears they may have strengthened the requirements
http://www.ashi.org/inspectors/join/categories.asp
but you can apparently still say that you are an ASHI inspector while a candidate member.
Most HIs are not PEs, so they are unable to provide a structural analysis or engineering report. As a result, they can also not serve as an expert witness in court, should there be problems with the house that the seller failed to disclose or actively hid (which is unfortunately more common than one might hope). Some HIs are also PEs, and they can thus provide a structural analysis and engineering report. Often the fees for a PE are no higher than for any other HI, and there is no detriment, so I always recommend hiring only HIs that are also PEs.
Would a PE who inspects a home, wet stamp the report? (therefor taking on a much larger amount of liability)
Why can't a HI be a expert witness?
Would a PE who inspects a home, wet stamp the report? (therefor taking on a much larger amount of liability)
Why can't a HI be a expert witness?
Not familiar with the term "wet stamp" - do you mean imprint the report with their seal? If so, yes, a PE will generally stamp the inspection report, at least the part that is an "engineering report".
There are specific legal requirements to be an expert witness. In many states, only people with professional licenses issued by the state can serve as expert witnesses. HIs do not fall into that category, at least not in the state where I have lived.
The benefit of an expert witness is that their testimoney on their area of expertise is "accepted as fact" - so you have to get another expert witness to refute it, other testimoney doesn't refute it (as I understand it - but I am NOT an attorney).
>>In the past, to become an ASHI home inspector, the first step is simply to pay money, and then you could claim to be an ASHI home inspector.I believe ASHI has always had a testing requirement - at least it did when I first looked at it in the early 90's.NAHI started with no testing requirement, but has had one for at least 7 yearsNACHI has an online test which is a joke.Also, there are 3 basic types of membership: candidate, candidate with logo privileges (the point at which one can hold oneself out as being a member) and full membershipTo have the logo privileges:QUOTE
Candidates w/ Logo (CL) ASHI Candidates with Logo Use Privilege have met most of the requirements for Member status: * Current requirements are: They have passed the National Home Inspector Examination and ASHI's Standards and Ethics Examination.
* ASHI has verified performance of 50 fee-paid inspections in substantial compliance with the Standards of Practice.
END QUOTE>>As a result, they can also not serve as an expert witness in court, Sorry, that's just not true. Maybe for structural questions, but home inspections involve a lot more than structural issues.
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
NAHI started with no testing requirement, but has had one for at least 7 years
Maybe it was NAHI I was recollecting - it was 10 years ago or so when I discovered that information.
>>As a result, they can also not serve as an expert witness in court,
Sorry, that's just not true. Maybe for structural questions, but home inspections involve a lot more than structural issues.
I don't know of any states that license HIs as professionals, which is one requirement for serving as an expert witness. An HI could serve as a witness, but to be an expert witness would require a PE, since testifying about a building's condition would be considered practicing engineering and thus require a PE.
>>There are specific legal requirements to be an expert witness. In many states, only people with professional licenses issued by the state can serve as expert witnesses. I remain unconvinced. I didn't practice litigation, and in fact I never took the evidence course in law school,(although I did have to study it intensely in preparing for the bar exams I took) but I have served as an expert witness both as a home inspector and previously when I worked in international trade, At that time I was a practicing lawyer, but my testimony was not as to legal matters, but rather as to customs and practices in int'l trade and in brokered funds scams.Perhaps to be an expert witness as to structural matters, one would usually be required to be a licensed PE (although I wonder if some of the academicians in structural engineering would be disqualified if they haven't obtained that license.But I believe you general assertion about a licensing requirement is inaccurate In the Federal courts: I. FEDERAL EVIDENCE RULE 702 provides that a witness may qualify as an expert by reason of “knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education.”There was one state court decision which required a license in a fire investigation:Licensing in a field in usually not determinative, but in one case, the court held that a witness not licensed to investigate fires under a state statute was not qualified to testify about the cause of a fire in an arson prosecution. People v. West, 264 Ill. App. 3d 176,636 N.E.2d 1239 (1994).See, e.g., http://www.scientific.org/distribution/law-review/giannelli.pdfA number of states require a private investigators license to do accident investigation and reconstruction (with some difference as to whether a PE also needs a PI license to do the same.But having a legal background and training, and having just done some research via Google,* my "expert" testimony is that a licensing requirement is the exception and not the rule.(Actually, I would not try to be qualified as an expert based on my experience and limited research, but I'd be willing to bet money that licensing requirements are the exception and not the rule)
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
Disclaimer 1: I am not a lawyer
Disclamier 2: I am in Canada
When I took my Engineering Law course, I was told that a PEng, as we are called here, is considered an expert witness by virtue of the professional designation; for a person without a professional qualification to be considered an expert witness, both lawyers would have to verify the credentials and agree to declare this person an expert witness.
I don't remember the ancient latin terms that would apply.
>>testifying about a building's condition would be considered practicing engineering and thus require a PE.You mean you need to be a PE to testify thay the siding is shot, or the roof is at term or the furnace flue was to close to combustibles or, or or?"Condition" is a lot broader than "structure.Again, a home inspection involves a lot more than structure and "engineering" issues.And if I had to have an expert witness on standards and practices in the home inspection industry, I doubr if just anyone with a PE license would qualify/I'll ask over at the ASHI forum - there are several PEs who participate there.
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
I didn't want to post too much in one message:>>Often the fees for a PE are no higher than for any other HI, and there is no detriment, so I always recommend hiring only HIs that are also PEs.Again, most of a home inspection involves non-structural non-engineering issues where the specialist structural training of a PE isn't applicable. My view is that the best experience for HIs is to have worked in the insurance repair business. Those are the guys who see what works real world.And HI's a generalists and only hold ourselves out as that.We can be a great referral source for trades and professions (actually there is an issue on that in the ASHI Code of Ethics - but I give referrals where I am familiar and comfortable with the work of several people/companies in the field and I do not accept or anticipate any sort of fee or gratuity. I give referrals as a service to my customer.)So far as I know PEs and other licensed trades are not tested for common sense. When someone misrepresents or misunderstands the home inspection business or trashes home inspectors in general, that person is not likely to end up in my referral list.OTOH, for example, there are 3 HVAC companies in town who get several hundred referrals from me a year (both for specialist evaluation and ongoing maintenance>)BTW: When I give such referrals, or just make recommendations for expert evaluation or repair, I try to follow up with the chosen expert as part of my ongoing education.Finally, yes, there are two many hack HIs out there and the industry needs better controls and regulations, in my opinion.I don't like the general idea of having another gov agency to deal with, but I think it would be in the best interests of the public and the quality HIs.
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
Professional Engineer?
When I was building inspector which is a lot different than a home inspector it was a fine opportunity Ill probably never have again unless I become a home inspector.
The two jobs while different hit the same paths over and over .
I was called out to inspect a job that did not have a permit . The homeowner is getting water in the house right after she had a central cooling system put in.
Well , she didnt know about me yet , so she invests the money in a home inspector to look at the system. He points out the problem in detail which I wasnt really aware that he could to be honest. In other words he could have performed my inspection that I didnt get to do till afterwards.
Any way she finds me on the phone to eat on my butt for not catching it because the HI told her I should have caught that . hahaha . Yup , he was right again but they didnt know I had never been there . He gives her my number and tells her to take it up with me which was helpful at solving it . Stay tuned here.
I finally get her stopped at eating my butt and tell her whats up. Her contractor did not buy a permit that was required and I will take it over from here . Rest assured!! I get his name from her and call the state inspector cause he loves those . I said we needed to make a call on a home owner . So we do.
The installer wont return her calls .
We knock on her door the next morning and she lets us see the HI report . The first words out of his mouth is , this guy is GOOD. We find the same thing he did and the state inspector calls the installer up from a list hes got of mobile numbers. He shoots the breeze for a few minutes and then the bombshell ;
Youve got a job over here that had no permit and its also in violation of these numbers . Its ruined a wood floor . The water is continuing to damage her house so you have 3 days to fix it and report to the city inspector or your lisense will be pulled . Then you will recieve notice of a hearing which you will face fines .
It was fixed the next day.
Tim