Home made Ash floors from rough cut lmbr
I have just picked up about 1000 ft of rough cut ash. I am going to make the flooring in my shop and hopefully install it in August (when the humidity in CT in the highest). I have a few questions.
My wife want to keep the boards as wide as possible, so my questions are;
— since I am not using an adhesive, do I have to face nail, how often, using what fastener? Some of the boards might be up to 8 inches wide.
— I am going to put “groves” in the bottom to help prevent cupping. How many should I put into the bottom of each board (every inch or everty 1.5 inches, etc???)
— about how long should the board be after I cross cut them. Some are 10-12 ft long. Should I cut them into 5-7 ft lenghts or go even smaller??
Thanks a miilion. I am sure I will have more questions as the project progresses, but these will get me started.
Replies
I don't know. But I am curious as to your experience in floors and general construction.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
...rough cut ash...
is it kiln dried?
...install it in August (when the humidity in CT in the highest...
why?
...not using an adhesive...
why?
...do I have to face nail...
not necessarily, how about some more detail on subfloor etc?
...going to put "groves" in the bottom to help prevent cupping.
what is there about this situation that you think cupping would be a problem?
...how long should the board be...
depends on the look you want - - if the boards are straight and true, the longer the better - from the standpoint of ease of installation - - do you have a way to get a true straight edge so to start the manufacturing process?
just finished an ash floor last month - 4"-5"- 6", nailed thru the tongue, 1.5" sub-floor, random lengths up to 12', small v-groove along the edge so to not have to sand - 'honey maple' stain - probably the prettiest floor I've ever done - -
a lot of work to make consistent finished material out of rough boards - are you tooled up?
DD
All that information sound nice but where are the pictures?
Doug
where are the pictures?
ya - - was thinking about that during the event - - got several excuses, no picts - - it's for a friend, he's gone to FL this weekend, I'll try to visit and get a few shots next week - -
finished a 'L' shaped room, fighting a deadline (his oldest daughters' marriage) - window trim (5 big ones, with a big high half-round), door trim (4), baseboard, floor, and an awkward outside corner transitioning between DW and a log cabin wall - - ceiling fans, etc, etc...
manufactured all the trim, the flooring was done in a small shop and had been in stock for a year - -
a 'feel good' job for a friend and ex-trim carpenter - - lived with him in FL 25 years ago and trimmed tract houses, my first professional experience - (before power nailers) - wish I had the stamina I had in 1980..."there's enough for everyone"
Ya sound like just the guy I need to help out here. Been a change on the roof job, they said go ahead and get it done as fast as I want to...they'll find the $ somewhere..yippee!
So I should be able to get it hammered out by mid July and have some real income again..already putting out feelers for the next gig..whew..trying to stretch this roof over 5 months woulda made a mess of things.
As to the OP'er's question..I think you and Frenchy oughtta just head east WHEN IT'S HUMID and put down a fat ash floor.lol.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
And where are yur pics???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
What? ya want pics of a boring bunch of shingles? Actually the only part that is worth looking at is the new lead counterflashing on the chimenney..that looks like I knew what I was doin..lol
Rained out again today..this sheet is gettin old..went out this am and found that fresh grass clippings and wet cedar don't work..bout slid right off.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Project information.
The room is about 20’x20’. It is an old house in New England. The floor sits over a dirt crawl space that has been covered with plastic.
The wood came in two batches. Batch one is quarter-sawn 10’ long boards of Ash. It has been drying in a barn for about 2 years. I have used to wood to make some baby furniture and it is dry. The second batch has been drying in a barn for about 3 years. I have not worked with it yet. I have a work shop and the tools to make the planks for the floor. The wood is sitting in my shop now and as I mill it, I am going to put it in the house for a week or so before installation.
As for the groves in the bottom, all the sample wood planks that I have seen all have it and since I am putting the floor over the crawl space, I figured it could hurt. I am installing it in August, when the weather is traditionally the most humid in CT.
As for why, I answer why not? I am a teacher and have the summer off so I am making this my summer project. I have experience building furniture (intermediate level) and wanted to give this a shot. In addition, I paid pennies on the dollar for the wood.
Subfloor is in question. It is under carpet and I was told by the old owner that it was pine, but in really bad shape. I am thing about one of two things.
1) Completely removing it and replacing it with 3/4 ply.
2) Removing the cupping boards only and coving it with plywood (1/2"???)
Thanks for your help.
Janto
the grooves in the bottom would seem superfluous, cupping would be a problem if there is moisture differential between the top and bottom of the boards - over a subfloor with a vapor barrier, grooves shouldn't be needed, I was wondering if there was a subfloor - -
I took your comment about installing during the most humid time as a conscious choice made for a specific reason - all things being equal, I'd install during the dry season - I've got no problem with you doing it then because that's when you can...
I'd encourage you to do a good job of getting the subfloor is reasonable shape, it'll make installation go much smoother - -
longer pieces are traditional, and it's the wild ends that are the most difficult to bend tight - 8" wide doesn't bend well at all, so make sure whatever length, the edges are straight -
good luck with your project, do feel welcome to ask questions, lots of experience around here, sometimes it can be a little gruff, - - don't take it personally -
regards, DOUD"there's enough for everyone"
I was going to plane the boards to 3/4in thickness. Is there any advantage to going any thinner? or thicker?
When the previous owner said the pine floor is in bad shape, he may have been referring to the looks not the physical condition.
You need to think about what will happen to doors and such by adding another layer of flooring. If you have the room, make the boards 7/8" thick. It will give you a little more sanding depth, either now or for future refinishes.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I know that a few of the boards we "buckling" under the carpet. I was thinking about just rmoving those boards and using a 1/2" plywood over the top of the entire floor. What you do think? Also, what type/size nails would you use to blind nail the tongue? (assume 3/4" thickness)
rent a flooring nailer..2'' flooring nails. I'm not thrilled with the 1/2 ply idea..how ya gonna keep it quiet? The Subfloor ought to be new 3/4..like advantec or T&G PLy..then skip the 1/2" it's just not a subfloor type of thing..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thanks. I have a feeling the old floor below is going to have to go. I dont want to spend hours in the shop, to have the sub floor screw up my hard work. It's not worth the risk.
I have a couple of nailing quesions.
1) How often should I blind nail?
2) I was thinking of face nailing also with old fashion nails. What is your recommended spacing?
If yer using a floor nailer about every 16 -22 inches ought to do ya.
Face nailing, I'd think ya might want to take the scale of the room in consideration, and the lengths of flooring. Too many too close doesn't look good, and too few you may have problems with squeaks..possibly blind nail, then find a suitable pattern to face with a deco. nail.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Do an illusion face nailing... flooring laid perpendicular to the walls, put the nail pattern in diagonally or vise versa. Use 3 or 4 nails at the ends of the boards in triangle pattern...
Make the nailing a feature...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Great ideas. I am glad the Ken at Hardwood Installer.Com Message Board sent me to this site. It is great. Thanks for all the help. School is out in a couple of days, then I begin WORK!
Whew!!!!
Any body got a steak for my eyes????
Yur wecome...
A flooring forum sent you here.... WOW!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
>>A flooring forum sent you here.... WOW!!!
http://www.dream-tool.com/tools/messageview.mv?view+hardwoodinstaller+3708+index
http://hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/
Sam:
I didn't have the answers. I do recall some discussions on this subject in the past and thought Janto would get the best advice here. I would not recommend the blind nailing suggested by some one. Wider the plank; increase the nailing pattern from the standard 6"-8" apart.
Ken Fisher
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com
Ken, do I read that as placing a nail every 6-8" along the tongue?"there's enough for everyone"
BTW... See if you can get the flooring kiln dried to under 10% MC before you start... Shoot for 6 to 8%
It will save you aggrevation and you can cull for the best..
BTW did I say something to make you a happy camper...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Just all the advice that I have been getting over the past fews days has been extremely helpful. I even bought a book and I am researching to buy a mositer meter this weekend.
Cheers!!!!!1
Alrighty then.....
Timber Checker or a Delmhurst...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Janto-
I wouldn't be so quick to jettison the original subfloor. I have 1x6 plank flooring over crawlspace in my house. I *used* to have have 2 1/4" oak strip flooring over it. Squeaked like all get out.
Ripped up all oak flooring and the went to fixing the plank flooring. Had to replace a few small sections (2'x2') with 3/4" ply, but then I cats pawed all the nails and replaced them with screws (525 sq ft of floor, took about 8-10 hours including floor repair).
Then I ran 1/2" ply over the whole thing, gluing down with liquid nails and shooting lots and lots of staples (1 1/4" crown staples).
Floor is rock solid, no squeaks. Haven't put HW floor down yet, still living on plywood.
MERC
But why do so many do it... Gawd can that get frustrating...
Walk into a room and feel the floor sag and give under yur feet...
The worst was finding one done in 3/8 - 3 ply...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Janto,
I'm with you on the grooves.
I put in a bit of thought on your situation, and I see where the grooves help by breaking the plane of surface tension that causes cupping.
I think that I would cut the grooves as in the sketch below.
View Image
Representation of Nominal 2X Material
Line A is the Top of Kerf (ToK)Line B is the plane of "Zero" Bending Stress (PZBS)
Here are my thoughts, such as they are;
Stress
The maximum bending force is along the vertical centerline Leaving a clear span of 1" to 2" will prevent splitting by keeping a kerf off the centerline
The maximum tensile force is along the plane at ToKThe strength of both is determined partly by the H and W of the pieceThe height above ToK is a function of use Minimum fror strength 1/2"? First finish 1/16" (if your good?) 2 refinishes 1/4" (2x1/8")? 13/16" to 7/8" ?
The other component of the stress calculation is the relative difference in humidity between the top and bottom of the piece. Deeper kerfs will drastically reduced this difference.
The effective width of the piece is reduced by the cumulative saw kerfs so using the thinnest of blades is indicated.
But the question I have for you is "What does the floor joist system look like?
Samt
Great stuff. I am a bit new at this, but from your sketch, I gather an approximate 3/8 deep cut into a 3/4 inch thick piece of flooring, with no cut along the center line. I am planning on making 4,6,8 random with. This will be a ton of cuts on the 6 and 8 inch wide boards. Is this correct?
I talked to another woodworking friend of mine, and he suggested using a router with a round nose bit to make the cuts. Any advice?
Grooving with a router or shaper is the commercial method, so we know it works.
I think that it would be faster for one man to use a table saw.
You would have to reset the table only once for each two passes of all the lumber. The exactness of the kerf spacing isn't that critical.
All the dimensions I suggested are judgment calls. For an 8" wide board use a 2" center gap and 1" between the kerfs. I would try to stay under 2" and 1" respectively.
Your total settings are 1/2", 1", 11/2", 2", and 3" for 4", 6", and 8" widths.
SamT
Edited 6/14/2004 11:56 pm ET by SamT
What did you mean by 11/2? That wouldnt fit on a 4 in board. Thanks a million, I grealy appreciate the help. When the floor is done, I will post pictures.
Also, was I correct to say a 3/8 cut on a 3/4 in board?
Edited 6/15/2004 5:49 am ET by Janto
What did you mean by 11/2? Not everyone here is an expert typist or speller...so ya gots to interpolate sometimes. Look at the sentence...he was trying to type an inch and a half. (Dang teachers...next thing ya know, he'll be sending our posts back with red marks and grades.)Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thats what I get for reading the message board a few beers in. My fault. I correct in green pen anyway. I like the change of pace. Thanks for the help.
Cheers
Ed... I am sooooooooo glad it's yur turn for the corner....
Thanks fot letting me out....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Sam... Yur not the man no more....
Don't believe it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 6/15/2004 10:41 am ET by IMERC
>>Also, was I correct to say a 3/8 cut on a 3/4 in board?
Depends.
What does the floor joist system look like????
You're the Ash man (hehehe.) What dims do you feel you need for strength? Plus fininshing? Plus refinishing?
>>Subfloor is in question. It is under carpet and I was told by the old owner that it was pine, but in really bad shape. I am thing about one of two things.
1) Completely removing it and replacing it with 3/4 ply.
2) Removing the cupping boards only and coving it with plywood (1/2"???)
Who cares what it looks like. Walk around and see what it feels like. If you only have a few cups, just rough sand to level them out and leave the pine as the subfloor. Replace only if rotting. Lay the new flooring diagonal or perpendicular to the old and diagonal or perpendicular to the joists.
||||||| + [////// or -- -- -- -- ]+ [\ or -- -- -- -- --] The more diagonal crossings the better.
What does the floor joist system look like?????
Is it in good shape? Is it strong enough for the new floors added weight?
I ain't gonna answer your kerf depth question. Yer on yer own. Can't blame me(|:>0
SamT
He may be able to saw slit the cupped boards and lay them back down minimizing the sanding.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Two startup tools are a moisture meter, to determine what you have, and then read Hoadley's "Understanding Wood", Taunton Press. You'll have the knowledge to proceed, and then ask good questions. Hoadley'll guide you through grain orientation and wood movement better than we could summarize here. An evening's investment that'll pay off big.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
don't worry about outside humidity; flooring is applied year round w/o later problems if flooring is acclimated to the deck you want to balance moisture content of flooring w subfloor of house after milling, use stickers or crib stack ash in house in work area for as long as possible, couple, three weeks as not KD material and log moisture content of subfloor and ash periodically to get a handle on it check http://www.coastaltool.com in hartford for delmhorst meters, best price around, also run combo specials on small porter cable compressor w finish & brad guns you need air power
mix the 2 different batches of stock together to balance color and grain specs for plank are to glue everything over 5", floor will be noisy and have movement if u don't we've been gluing all planks 5" and greater for stability use bostiks best glue, trowel down (expensive) or use large tubes of pl400 subfloor adhesive and run stripe down middle of ea plank, no rosin paper on deck w.w.grainger's supply house carries air-assisted caulk guns, big help if not t&g on the long seams of planks, consider some shallow drilling w deck screws and buttons patterned along seams, or blind nailing edges w floor stapler if not secured floor moves, noisy, and finishing is difficult due to deflection of finish floor the movement of sander and operator will cause planks to rise and fall, dust and dirt will expel from seams like a dirt pump don't go there
leave planks as long as possible back cuts are good idea w floor over crawl area, use rounded bits; square saw cuts can lead to splits from underneath if there is torsional movement stay away from decorative nails, look great initially, but they accumulate dirt/stain discoloration around them without picky maintenance, and a refinish is like going to hell early if subfloor planks cupped, try breaking edges down w belt sander if not too many, refastening w screw shank nails from airgun helps tighten deck up too for strength, plane planks uniformly to thickest possible dimension recommend gluing planks, face nail w 2 1/2" galvanized finish nails from air gun, square drive deck screws w wood buttons patterned on edges blind nailing can be done w 2" flooring stapler, but will have to nailset "raised" fasteners flush w edge of plank w square edge stock easier to do staples than cleat nails which bend & break if u r going to t&g edges, nail 6-8 inches, glue should still be used i'd send that out to a local mill in ct, several around w the machine, but square edge can be done leave the finishing to experienced operator, don't wreck nice stock like that
Thanks for the great input. My brother is a carpenter (mostly rough) but has done a few floors. He said that they normally use liquid nails as an adhesive when they dont want to trowel. Any comments?
I have decided (from all the great advice) that I am going to buy a Delmhorst moisture meter. Specifically, there are two I am interested in.
J-Lite Moisture Meter
View Image
J-2000 Moisture Meter
The J-lite is about $100 and the J-2000 is about $200. Biggest difference between the 2, that I noticed, is the display. Is the J-2000 worth the extra $100? (baby on the way and $ is getting a little tighter.)
Cheers.
subfloor adhesive, pl400, liquid nails etc. does the job, less cost and work than trowel down glue have to use fasteners as well small meter will do the job for you
and I have used coastal tool before. They are awesome.
Hi Janto,
I stumbled in from the Knots forum..
I am not trying to flame you and you may already know this, but 1000 bf (of anything) is going to make one gigantic pile of shavings, I mean like huge. Not to mention the fact you will need to get it s4s. You might want to consider a bringing to a shop with a s4s molding machine..
Best of luck
I thought of that. I need only to use just over half of it for the floor. I am sure since it is rough cut, about 30-35% is going to be waste and cut off prior to planing. I am working on a connection of mine who has a 48" planer at work. Thanks.