Called in to look at fixing these trussess. I have never seen anything like these. Most are dipped at least 1/1/2″ in the middle, all finger jointed, and stapled together with rusted staples. These are located in a crawl space that had 98% humidity for quite a while.
Greg in Connecticut
Replies
(incredulously) what's above them?
About a million on one and 2 million on another.There are families living on top of these. The crawl space is only 3 feet tall in some areas.
Greg In Connecticut
You know it's the plumbers fault. Sheesh! What kind of hack plumber... no wait. Better not talk about hack plumbers in a thread with great exhibits of a hack carpenter.
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Got any idea of how to shore it? Probably need to do a survey of the entire house to figure out what's load bearing and what isn't.... never thought about how to install floor joists after the house is built. Know an engineer?
There are about 200 trusses like this to repair, some dip2 1/2" in the middle or are already split. Engineering has been done, we will be using a lot of bolts and plywood . There definitly is alot of questionable carpentry under there.
Greg in Connecticut
what's up with the paint? has there been a fire, I think things kinda look like it.
This entire crawl area had 100% humidity for quite a while. When it was discovered the area looked like a rainforest. All the insulation was soaked and there was a lot of mold and mildew everywhere. The paint is some kind of retarder and cleaner.
Greg in Connecticut
Let me guess - they want it done cheap and yesterday too, right?The part I don't get here is "fix" them.There is nothing there to fix. They need replaced
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I can see where it would be possile to repair them. They appear to be fairly deep for as far as they're spanning. That means the forces are relatively low. If the grade of the lumber is sufficient and someone actually put some thought into the design it might work. But once it's done it would be almost solid plywood. Doing the work would be pretty miserable - Tight quarters and always working over your head. Not something that I would want to do.
I feel on edge lately. A little like a hemophiliac in a porcupine petting zoo.
Boss
Your observations are correct. The engineered fix will require about 490 sheets of plywood and 12,000 SDS screws, and 2200 bolts.We are basically going to encapsulate the existing TRUSSES and create a new one.These joists are all 16" tall.
What bothers me about this whole situation, this was approved by the building department originally, and now they won't miss a trick when it is being corrected.
This is not the kind of job everyone wants to do, or could do,but we all have to be good at something.
Greg in Connecticut
>> This is not the kind of job everyone wants to do << Amen brother!!!!
So what kind of building is this? Single family detached? Multi family? What?
Matt
Multi family-condo's -fairly high priced as well
Greg
I hope you bid this high, or at least bid it T&M. Tough work, and a tough "political" situation.Do you have the repair drawings as PDF files? I'd be interested in seeing them. I'd also enjoy seeing some progress pictures when you get into it.
A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at him.
Boss
These plans have a copyright warning and cannot be reproduced without the engineers approval. I will ask him tuesday whenI see him if it would be all right. Thanks for your interest.
Greg in Connecticut
Piffin
The company running this project is concerned about time, only because of the condition of these trusses.We are to stay until it is finished, regardless of money.
The company is walking a fine line, pleasing the homeowners, and being fair to the contractors. We are in uncharted territory, when we start jacking up floors with beautiful tile work and wood floors. But after we are done, the doors will close again.
Greg in Connecticut
greg.. my first thought.. the design doesn't look that bad..
i'm thinking two things.... one failure due to wet conditions... and
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loads exceeding the design limitationsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree Mike and it seem fairly straightforward as to what needs to be done. Just get in there, shore up the bearing partitions taking weight off the floor and re frame the floor using whatever technique the engineers want. As long as they are involved at every step of the way, it won't matter if it fails....because if it fails it gets to be done again!!!If I were engineering it, I'd simply go under there and start shoring EVERYWHERE and when I got it to the right height, I'd start beefing up the points that needed it and sister every joist with whatever worked. If mechanicals had to be removed and replaced....so be it. I wouldn't be opposed to taking out every truss either. It's done all the time in firework. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
don't it seem like there is or oughta be a hall of shame for photos like that one to go into?
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What's the plan to make the floor flat?
Just jack up that vent pipe and run a new house in under it.
If it were only that easy. Some of the waste lines run uphill also. This is areal treat.
Greg In Connecticut
can't wait to see what Boss has to say....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I don't see the problem. He did use structural-grade paint ...
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That has got to be the most half assed attempt at any kind of homemade trusses that I have ever seen.
What else can I say?
Boss
These trusses do appear to have been made in jigs, since there is a little continuity to the patterns. They were made with finger jointed 2 x 3, some 22' long and stappled 3/8" plywood.
From what I understand there are more units with these same trusses, but they were never subjected to the same humidity.
I've spent about 16 hours crawling around these things, and for the life of me, I don't know whats holding them up.
Greg In Connecticut
There would be a little bit of rigidity from the size of the plywood gussets. Aside from that, I can't some up with anything that would keep them together either.
When vultures are on their deathbed, are they ever tempted to eat themselves?
I don't know whats holding them up.
Inertia. Don't sneeze while you're under there.
Who is paying for all this? It seems inconceivable that 90 units were bought without anyone inspecting the structure. Looks like work for lawyers, as well as carpenters.
Edited 12/18/2007 3:27 pm ET by smslaw
can you smell it ? little alarms going off ?
is this a great country , or what ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In my youth, I worked on the side (sat and sun) doing repairs to a condo project that Alcoa supplied. It was a K and D sub and the alcoa engineer s told them they could use lightweight gauge 6" aluminum c channels, 24" oc. The spans used 14' lengths. Of course it didn't work but for some reason they acutally built about 50 units before they pulled the plug on that idiocy.The floors resembled a WWF ring. It was a trampoline! Alcoa sent in their fixes: attach a 2x6 to each c channel. It did nothing.The final fix was this: $500 or have us come in and put a second 2x6 against theirs and put another one in the center of every span. We also had to lift the carpets and nail all the members. Then the carpet guys restretched the carpeting. We also glued and shimmed our extra pieces up tight to the floor. There were lots of mechanicals to wrestle and lots of furniture to move. I wouldn't do a job like this today but I'd contract it! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Did I already use the word 'liability' once or twice?
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as in.... " you touch it , you own it " ?
ah, yes.... who said it's not exciting ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
can you smell it ?
I can.
little alarms going off ?
They are.
is this a great country , or what ?
It sure is.
Like so many condo associations built in the last twenty five years, keeping dues down was priority number 1.Anything beyond normal upkeep was forbidden. Most Management companies are great at mowing your lawn, shoveling snow, and general maintenance but not great on long term maintenance or planning for. Poor management companies giving poor advice to Condominium Boards of Directors with no construction expertise end up with messes like this. I am sure these problems could have been noticed a lot earlier.
It is more important to consider that these so called trusses were ever used to begin with. I am a reasonable man, and cannot see how a building official wouldn't ask questions about these.
Greg in Connecticut
I'd proceed with caution. I'd hate to be the last guy to touch those.
It looks like someone bought a do it yourself truss kit. Just not the deluxe kit. You know, the one that comes with the diagonal bracing.
Thats the exact thing I thought - they left all the diagonal bracing out- I have been in the business since 1972, and I have never seen anything like these.
Greg In Connecticut
Didnt realize these were two story buildings. Ya dont suppose the second floor is spanned with the same things do you?
The only options that they are given is to try and fix them?
In picture #2, looks like you can slide new I-joists next to them. This means that you would have to open the floor above and add new sub-floor and finished flooring. Is that not an option?
To try and jack up and sister/fix every single joists and get them straight would be a nightmare and take 10 times longer to fix, especially since you have sagging from 1-1/2" to 2-1/2". Jacking up in the center isn't a fix, you will be jacking everywhere just to get them straight. Once the center is jacked, then the rest from the center and out will have to be jacked.
They chose to leave the existing trusses, so they did not have to disturb the above subfloor/ finished floor.
Sistering a new I joist next to the existing would be quicker, if we are able to lift the old straight. The jury is still out, can they be straightened 100%?
I am of the opinion, if we can take half the bow out, and stabilize them, then that should suffice. At this point safety has to trump looks.
There are people living above these beauties.
Greg In Connecticut
Greg,
Are the rooms above open with no walls?
If there are walls above, that means the walls are sagging also. Is there a second floor? If there is, that means the second floor has to be sagging also.
Sistering a new I joist next to the existing would be quicker, if we are able to lift the old straight. The jury is still out, can they be straightened 100%?
I realize they don't want to mess with the floor above but, you take the floor above out, you don't have to fix any existing sagging joists. The labor and material alone to try and fix them would be more expensive than ripping out the existing sub-floor and finished floor.
How do you even know that you can pop those joists back up into place and be straight without even breaking them?Joe Carola
Joe
Load walls line up from first to second floor- Doing as you suggested would entail removing all the main electrical services, all the main plumbing, and interupting a bunch of firewalls.
It would take someone a lot smarter than I, to take out those joists, and install new ones, without dropping the building.
I am not sure if the joists could be straightened, we are going to attempt one next week.
Greg in a crawl space in Connecticut
Greg,
From the looks of the pictures, the plumbing is underneath the joists, maybe a vent might have to be cut and some wires.
I still don't see why you can't just cut the floor above and slide new I-joists along side the existing joists. The ends will be the same and the centers will be sticking up higher then the sagging joists. Just frame kneewalls underneath the I-joists at the ends.All you have to do after that is just put new sub floor down and finish the floors.
Are the finished floors above tile, oak,vinyl, carpet?Joe Carola
Joe
I am going to sit and think about that a while. I would have to demo a bath and a half, kitchen, living room, dining room , and all walls that run parallel.
Then reinstall all hardwood, tile and maybe carpet along with new bath and kitchen. I guess it could be done.
Greg in Connecticut
"They chose to leave"so who buys the liability for bad choices?They?The engineer?The guy doing the work?All of the above?
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Piffin
This job will be done under the direction of an engineer, to his specs. He tells us how high to go, what materials,how they are installed, and signs off on the design and installation.
The people owning these units are in a tough spot, fix what they have, or demolish, and start from scratch out of pocket.Their decisions.
We will try and fix what they have or we can build brand new-it is up to them.
Greg In Connecticut
All I can say isMay the Lord be with you, My son.You gonna need his help;)
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Piffin
My sunday ritual is going to mass at 7:30 a.m. and thanking, not asking the lord for anything. I might have to change this sunday, and ask for a little(lot) of guidance.
What I have seen here so far is just 6 units. There are 90 more units in this project, that are of similiar construction.
It will take me more than an hour tomorrow morning to gather my thoughts on this project.
How much snow do you have aleady?
Greg in Connecticut
,bout a foot of heavy wet stickyIt will be cold tomorrow and turn it al to ice
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It would be informative to know the span of those trusses.
As Framer said, there appears to be room to slide in new I-joists next to the old. Your photos show very little obstruction along the length of the existing trusses and what is there could be temporarily moved or disconnected.
From the camera vantage point in photo #3 it appears you could remove the entire knee wall while still putting in squash blocks under the end of each truss, thereby creating a path to slide in the I-joists next to each truss. If the support on the other end is similar then cut loose that knee wall and put in support blocking under the other end of the trusses, too. If not, work something out.
When you get all (some, most, can't tell without being there) I-joists into position against the existing trusses, with blocking or some kind of lateral support to keep them from rolling, yet not attached to the current trusses, use perpendicular beams near both ends on big house jacks to lift the whole thing at once. If the I-joists are sized right then the sag in the center of the span will be raised evenly until the sub flooring above is in contact with the entire top flange of the I-joist.
It this point, place the permanent supports under the ends of the I-joists down to the stem wall or what ever the load path to the foundation is and make the lateral blocking permanent.
If the current trusses have taken a set that impedes the raising of the floor then those could be cut since the support should now be taken up by the I-joists. The top flange of the I-joists can be permanently fastened to the top chord of the trusses and maybe even pocket screwed and glued to the sub floor.
Any drastic raising of a settled structure is bound to cause problems in the framing and finish above, even if done slowly. I can envision cracked or popped tiles and other stress related problems.
Even if you have to place an additional midspan support beam with corresponding footings under the I-joist span you may be ahead of the game. You are, in effect, raising the I-joists in the manner of a house mover, evenly, slowly and all at once, just not picking it all the way up off the foundation.
I think this will be a more satisfactory fix than rips of plywood and all that hardware. At least, run it by your engineer and see what numbers he comes up with.
Ralph
The trusses(?) range from 84" 246" and are of various states of sag. There is a lot of plumbing waste pipe that can be disconnected, electrical service that can be disconnected, along with cable and alarm wires.
As I understand it, the reason I joists were not used,they are not designed to be jacked as proposed. The engineer is also afraid that we would not be picking up the joints in the plwood,and creating steps at that point.
I don't think they are striving for perfection, just safety. If you could live with a 2 1/2" sag, then I would imagine a 1" sag would be a great improvement.
I will pose all the suggestions I get here to the engineer.Sometimes we contractors are called in to late to the process. Designs are not scrapped because the engineering firm has invested so much time in the project.
Me, I'm a guy with a hammer, saw and a lot of common sense, with an HSG after my name. The engineer has a PE after his name, and sometimes a lot of common sense. Nothing is final until we start throwing some numbers around, and doing a couple of tests. Thanks for putting some thought into my dilemma.It is nice to bounce ideas off your peers.
Greg in Connecticut
Engineeers tend to look at a way of engineering this problem, not always of practical ways to get from here to there.I would be thinking in terms of using LVLs to slide in and jack up in place independent of the existing. The LVLs would have higher materials cost, but the labour would be a third of what you are looking at.of course, it would be a nice warm winter job to stretch out...;)
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of course, it would be a nice warm winter job to stretch out...
Am I the only one that this looks like a good challange to take on ?
I can already see me down there on a creeper with a heater and a good boombox.
Too bad I'm way out in California. ; ^ ) Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I'm getting old enough to look beyond the 'challenges' and cherry pick my jobs above ground now.;)
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I think the risk of joint stepping is minimal when compared to the benefits. You are leaving the already fastened trusses in place which would hold the joints together and as the plywood joints are supposed to be staggered during installation the new side-by-side I-joists or LVL's as suggested by Piffin would be distributing their upward thrust to the adjacent panels and not just exerting pressure on the joints.
Since the engineer believes I-joists cannot be jacked (I don't agree) then switch to LVL's.
Also, lifting the entire floor as a unit would place less stress on each individual panel and joint. As I see the current patch approach, you would have to raise each truss individually, placing an inordinate racking strain on the rest of the floor plane almost assuring more damage to subflooring and finished flooring. There's going to be some anyhow.
Regarding the 246" span of some of the trusses. I would plan for an intermediate beam and footing support as I mentioned previously so the new Joists or LVL's would not need to be extra deep and expensive. Would also take bounce out of the floor as I expect there is with such a span. Another plus is you won't have to muscle in 20' lengths if you shorten the span.
Edit. I take that back. If you can fit in the longer lengths, do so, and as the floor is jacked also use that intermediate beam as a jacking point and place its supports after the floor is leveled.
Edited 12/9/2007 10:58 am ET by RalphWicklund
I like a combination of the ideas above. The new center beam is blocked up lower than its final position. LVL's that span half the floor width are put in place. Then the center beam is slowly raised with house jacks to it final position and permanate bracing is put in place under the center beam.
Good luck
That is my thinking too
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Did you get rolling on this yet?
John
Preliminary numbers were submitted yesterday. Building committee will meet this week and setup interviews. We will be given time to present our proposals and answer questions.
I know its not the kind of job everyone wants, but four companies showed interest and submitted bids.The job could be a godsend or a death knell.
The next jobs we will be bidding on are deck repairs-90 decks or so. Seems the original builders didn't feel deck flashing or deck piers above ground were required.
With construction slowing down in Connecticut, too many people are chasing the same dollars. I enjoy doing major repairs like these, still have to put food on the table.
Greg in Connecticut
Sounds fun.
>I know its not the kind of job everyone wants,<
Repairs are my forte now on my return to construction. Too many people in the new construction bus., too easy for every redneck & their brother to call themselves a carpenter when it's all bang-and-go new work. More brain power required for repairs (= more $$/hr), even the small ones. More risk though and the unknowns require that you have good commo skills with the owners.
John
I couldn't agree more. I am lucky that throughout the years, I have learned to do a lot of varied carpentry tasks-foundations-framing-siding-roofing etc. I am the go-to guy for a lot of paper builders when their in-house people can't fix an issue.
I like problem solving- and complicated repairs and associated risks are part of the scenario. The dollars have to more than equal the risk- I have already paid dearly for my education.
Friends I have who frame for the big national builders had all the work they could handle last month. Someone came in and cut their prices by $6000 a unit- now they are out looking for work. Know anyone who needs 75 framers in a hurry?
Greg in Connecticut
how will you address all of the cosmetic damage after jacking, i.e. tile floors and walls cracking, hardwood gapping, doors needing realignment, etc. ?
is that to be contracted separately after the jacking and structural work is complete ?
carpenter in transition
The initial bid package made it plain that we were not responsible for cracking,buckling,breakage, or any other damage to unit. The damage we do, will be corrected by a different contract and/or different contractors.
At this point, there are no metrics assigned to what point these buildings will be jacked. I think if we can stabilize them they might call it a victory.
The game is just beginning, the lawyers haven't finished the rules, and nobody has signed on the dotted line.
Greg in Connecticut
I don't want to get personal, but what kind of money was budgeted for the truss repairs?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Fasteddie
These jobs have no budgets- I don't think an estimator could pull the numbers out of Means Construction books-but I could be wrong. I would hope this is an isolated case.
We are in the initial phase of this bidding- the initial design may be to expensive to build.
Greg in Connecticut