When I tried working for myself last year, I found out on my first job just what a hassle some homeowners can be. This was of course annoying, but on the bright side, it allowed to prepare for just about any homeowner nuisance that could arise. And believe me, if their was a nuisance that could arise, these pests made sure it happened.
I’m going to start out with something small, because I don’t think it’s been discussed very much on the forum. Here’s one that I’ve heard is not all that uncommon, but that I found very irritating:
These homeowners were from the next state over. Since they couldn’t be their each day, they adamantly insisted that at the end of every day I call them, and report to them what I had done.
I’d like to make it very clear in my contracts that I will never call a homeowner to give them a progress report. If they want a progress report, they can call me, and not more than once a week if they’re calling for that purpose. I also will only give them this courtesy if for that week they’re not going to be their in person.
After all, if they don’t want to trust me, they should’nt have hired me. I don’t need a boss when I’m running the company. What do you think? Am I being unreasonable?
–T
Replies
I don't think you're being unreasonable.
They're relying on you to be honest when you call and tell them the day's progress. They had no independent means of verifying what you said except for when they bothered to come into town.
So whether they realized it or not, they were beholden to your work ethics either way.
I think I'd put a clause in your contract indicating that there will be additional charges of $amount per hour for excessive consultations. And provide a definition of "excessive."
Trust issues aside, the real problem here is the additional amount of your time that they are consuming through the daily (or whatever) status calls. How would you have felt if they showed up once a week, but kept you there for six hours while you explained every detail of what you did?
Here's another question based upon your post -- you said you want language that makes it clear that you'll never call to give them a progress report. What about calling them when you're done or when you've completed a major milestone? Those *are* progress reports, too. Just very good ones... :-)
I don't think you'd want to put in language that would scare off other customers, so be careful in how you phrase it.
Glen
I think you need to compromise. Agree to call with milestones. I think that since they are out of state, you might want to bend a little. Maybe email two picture a day. They probably just want reassuring that everthing is going well, I doubt that they don't trust you.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 8/13/2007 8:30 pm ET by FastEddie
Call collect?
Eddie are you serious?
No, that was my sarcastic contribution."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Since they couldn't be their each day, they adamantly insisted that at the end of every day I call them, and report to them what I had done.
As a business person, I don't think that request is unreasonable. The customer IS the contractor's "boss", and it's customary in business to provide periodic status reports to the boss.
I also don't think that request is unusual - so if you are planning to work for homeowners, it's likely not an issue that will go away. If you prefer to work more independently, perhaps focusing your business more toward commercial construction would help avoid these situations.
I agree that the homeowner should be the one to make the move to call or meet with you; and that daily is a bit of a nuisance.
I just finished a job (house unoccupied) where the deal I made was to meet with the homeowner once a week. To me, this was the perfect frequency of meeting- reviewing progress, making decisions on whatever had come up during the week, and getting a handle on projected completion date. Also, the HO would be paying me on a weekly basis for ALL work completed to date. That way, if any thing were to happen/go south, I would have the option to stop work (or even walk off if it was that bad). Potential loss of no more than a week.
Maybe it's not for you, but I don't think I would have any issues complying with this request. Most of the time I work alone, so I might even look forward to touching base with the client on a daily basis.
If I did call every day, I would keep my progress report very short, just a simple "I continued framing out the closets today" should suffice. Let them ask questions if they like and keep the answers short and to the point. If the calls start taking up a lot of time (I think 10 minutes would be a long time), that's when I would probably start to push back.
I think that actually putting contact limits in the contract would put a lot of people off.
You do too have a Boss. The person writing the check to your company for completed work; aka the Customer.
Like others have said, periodic updates aren't unusual and if you want to get a good repuation spread pretty quickly good cusotmer relations is a good way to do it. Bad customer relations spreads a reputation faster though.
Communication is the best tool I know of for building a trusting relationship.
I try to make contact and report on progress at least once a week, usually by email and photo.
Even with my reputation for excellence and good scheduling, I notice customers get edgy if they don't hear from me for awhile. When you are proactive on keeping them informed, they are proactive on keeping you paid too. When you get sloppy about communications, they take the hint and they get sloppy about payments.
But all that said - expecting a phone call from me every day is over the top and implies a lack of trust. I would plan to bill them for the time and phone bills for that level of service. Also, I do most of my telephone work early AM, so they can expect to get a wake up call with my report of the previous days work.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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We do and have done that automaticaly for the 8 years I have been in business. Either email, write a note or call the voice mail. We give a brief progress report, ask any clarifications needed and alway tell them to call the office if there is an issue. If we happen to talk with them on a given day then we don't neccesarily call the afternoon report in but otherwise we do it daily.
I just believe in the more open the communication the less issues we will have. It also is comforting to them to know you aren't nervous about talking with them. DanT
It is arguable whether client communications or site cleanliness is the most important of all considerations to client satisfaction.
In all cases, a brief daily report will do wonders for your reputation. A more comprehensive report should be made weekly, and a concise formal report made at the end/start of each phase.
For remote clients, Email provides an electronic log.
For resident clients, a written logbook left in an accessable place provides a written log.
With phone calls, you have to maintain a phone log of what was said.
I'm thinking that a weblog, aka, blog, set up for each client, with the client as a co-author, might be the best of all. The learning curve is short and shallow. Privacy is good, only you and the client can access their blog. Everybody has 24 hour access. The style is conversational, and documents and pictures can be up and downloaded.
The software is free and if you already have a website, a publicly accessable Blog Log In page can be the entry portal, which keeps your website bandwidth down, since the blog would be hosted on a different server.
SamT
You are confusing two things here: Ego and Opportunity
Your ego seems a little bruised because you don't like the feeling that someone isn't trusting you, or wants verification every step of the way, whatever. You are a seasoned proffesional, and these calls are pulling focus from you doing what you do best.
What you miss is the opportunity. Just from the get go, you are charging them your proffesional hourly rate for that time on the phone, plus the time you spend preparing that report for them? If not, you may want to start adding that on and showing the customer what their daily reports are worth. Their request is outside the bounds of your normal work, they should either pay for this add-on or come to another way of gathering the data they require.
The opportunity just for making a strong, personal connection to this client also can't be wasted. You come across as caring about the person, as well as the project, then you will always be known as "this good guy I worked with... here, let me give you his number..."
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Oh, good Lord, no. But I can give him two dollars and an assault rifle.
call them every hour on the hour, Naw just kidding, All my clients live away i have never done that but promise to call right away if i run into any problems, I might call after a certain task is done, While i see others points here and i do stay on one job at a time i am a CONTRACTOR not an hourly employee, If i need to go bid or fix something thats what i need to do.
Sounds to me like you have a prima donna attitude and don't want to be bothered by your clients.
Yes some of them are going to be difficult, some are going to be demanding, and some are going to be a down right PITA.
Doesn't matter; if you plan to stay in business you find a way to keep them all as happy as possible, no, you're not going to keep them all happy all the time, but you damn sure do what it takes to keep most of them happy most of the time.
Would it take that much to give them a 5min update at the end of the day? No probably not and you could probably do it on your way from the job back home.
Is it a reasonable request? Not sure. We deal with clients who are not in the property while we're working from time to time and we do everything we can to keep them up to date. Phone calls, at least once a week, e-mails with photos, etc. It keeps them in the loop and informed. The more they feel like they are in control, know what's going on the more comfortable they will be and the less headaches I will have.
Your idea to put that line in your contract is stupid in my opinion. And your "they can call me, I won't call them, and they can only call me once a week" line... forget it.
If you really feel that way and can't be bothered by trying to provide good customer service hang it up and go back to work for someone else, You'll never be happy and none of your customers will either.
Different types of people require different types of handling, the trick is to find out what that is early on and gear your service to them.
If you're more concerned with the process and mechanics of construction and remodeling then the business and service end of it IMO you're not cut out to be on your own and you'll probably not be happy.
Edited 8/13/2007 4:51 pm ET by CAGIV
a pre-Madonna attitude
Where did you go to school ... Kansas? What comes after pre-madonna ... Michael Jackson?
Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
Try prima donna."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey I never said my education was worth a whole lot lol
fixed...
Edited 8/13/2007 4:52 pm ET by CAGIV
Good stuff there, especially from such a young fellah! ;)
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Thanks ;)
I'd like to think I've learned quite a bit since I was thrown into the deep end with out a life jacket a few years ago.
In all seriousness what I've experienced is what Sam wrote above. Communication & a clean job site go along away.
Honest communication, no BS, when something goes wrong or we screw up, I own up to it fast, goes a lot further and keeps them happier then trying to give them some fluff and BS.
I agree.
I never even thought about the fact that I call my customers every day or any time that I do work at their house to let them know what happened or what I found.
I just assume that I owe them that courtisy for their trust in me taking care of their home.
My customer key storage has reached 3 boxes now so I guess I'm all wrong. ;)
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I agree completely. customers are as varied as us contractors. they each have their insecurities , fears, and needs. It's part of the job. like it or not."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
You have to be careful not to drift off into a mindset where the customer is an adversary.
Not that this is how you feel, but if you can work with a client with some 'special needs' and find a way to make money at it. Then you both win.
If you really feel that the client will be a problem, so much so that you can't earn your $$, then I'd not work for that client.
Homeowner from Hades???? Didn't hear anything about not getting paid yet. Seriously. I got in to computers 10 years ago because I needed to send files to out of town customers. You should be taking pictures every day of th job and emailing them. Whole lot cheaper than a lawyer.
Welcome to the real world dude. I remember when I first started my business too.......and I thought how great it would be now that I'm the "boss". LOL... yeah right. We all got a boss dude. And it's always the same guy.... the one with the checkbook. Your customer doesn't sound so bad to me. Maybe a little bit of a PIA, but nothing worth getting excited about. That's just business. I'm guessing that if this is what your attitude is like towards your customers.... well.... you're not going to having this problem too much longer. Careful what you wish for.
I was out to dinner with my son and his girlfriend recently. (what a babe, wonder how he does it) She said she wanted to start her own business soon so she could "set her own hours and make as much money as she needed and control her enviroment, and enjoy going to work". I just laughed...............hard. DanT
Don't ya just love the ignorance?
would nieve be better???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Whatever you call it, just not up to the "real world" yet. I thought the same thing when I quit my last job eight years ago to go out on my own. Before, I had one (maybe two) people to answer to. Now everyone who writes a check is the "boss". I never had it so good before. On the other hand, I'd never do it again. You can, indeed, be very flexible in the hours you work and the jobs you take, if you are well-prepared beforehand.
Dan
You said she (son's girlfriend) was hot, you dont have to be practicle when your hot!
Doug
Good point. My son is really picky and brings home girls I only dreamed of dating at his age. Then 2 or 3 months later says something like "well, she was nice but we really didn't have much in common". All I can think is what in the h#ll would you need to have in common, I just want my grandchildren to look like that! Guess I am glad he is particular. DanT
Don't know if somebody else may have mentioned this but seems to me a web cam might satisfy some of their Q.
Would also act as a bit of a security system. Just my 2c
I just wanted to add i CHOPPED CHOPPED for years till i could figure people out by the school of hard knocks, No body knows this stuff till there thrown in with the lions, Remember the worst day working for yourself is better then the best day working for da MAN;)
Put the shoe on the other foot. If you hired a carp as a sub on one of your projects that you couldn't personally set foot on daily wouldn't you want to know what was going on on a daily basis? I sure would.
If a sub I hired wouldn't call when I wanted him to I'd cut a check for the percentage he's completed and wish him luck. Good ridance.
Many of the clients with deep pockets got that way because they are detail oriented, energetic and good problem solvers. If you wont' talk to 'em they will find someone who will.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
it's interesting you bring this up. I left an employee to do a coat of compound and prepare the floor for cement board on monday. I called him at noon to check in ( was on another job). just the voice mail. I left an additional message on the way home wondering how he made out. got home, ate dinner, etc. then looked at my e-mail and the customer asked why nothing had been done today. here enters the cold sweat followed by being Pizzed off. I imediately called my guy again, just voicemail. go to work today after tossin and turnin all night because I was annoyed, he shows up, I blast him for not showing up yesterday. he said he did and the compound from the previous coat was still wet. he apologized for not calling me but figured there was little he could do so he went home and worked on his own house and forgot to check the messages. All this could be avoided if some daily breif communication is going on. I wouldn't be so tired right now either.Live and learn eh?"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
Your employees are free to decide when they can go home based on their own judgement of how much work they can get done that day? Wow, now that's empowerment. Do they get paid for the day?
What if you had work on another job (or even at your own home) that you wanted them to work on instead? Unless you're using the term "employee" loosely, I think you have more than a communication issue, you have an insubordination issue.
I think you misunderstood my post. What I was saying was that my employee was set up with a day's work but he had questions and the joint compound from the previous day was not dry. he tried to call me but I was out of range. He could have very well driven the hour to my site (that would have been preferable) instead he cut out (unpaid). I spoke to him about that already. What my post was in response to was when no communication is made as to why something wasn't done, the mind wanders and assumptions are made and people get annoyed. I'm advocating for communicating to the customers and between the workers so issues don't arise."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
the employee in question is probably paid as a sub
compound can still be applied over a damp previous coat.
Looked at from that POV, I call the sub. Not them call me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd rather a sub call me when it's conveinent for him, but if he wants me to interrupt his day I'll make the call, which is likely to be a voicemail box so he not only gets to listen to me one, but twice when he calls back which does nothing but waste time. Who pushes the speed dial button doesn't matter as much as the fact that the conversation takes place.
Typical daily call:
Me: "How's it going?"
Them: "Nothing out of the ordinary and we're on track."
Me: "Thanks for the update, talk to you tomorrow."
" 'Bye."
Takes longer to type than to make the call.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Gee, your typical daily call sounds like trying to ask a teenager, "How was your day?"Do you have this clause in your contract:
Homeowner and Contractor agree that Contractor will perform the specified work as an independent contractor. Contractor
• Maintains his own independent business.
• Will use his own tools and equipment
• Will perform the work specified in Clause 1 independent of Homeowner’s supervision, being responsible only for satisfactory completion of the work.
Gee, your typical daily call sounds like trying to ask a teenager, "How was your day?"
There's nothing better to hear than everything's on track! We also judge subs on what they don't speak up about but should. We're nit pickers and as soon as we can look at their work we know how well things are going.
In our type of remodeling and custom building rarely does a day go by that doesn't have something out of the ordinary happen. Something is late, the foundation is over or under dug, foundation ICF's are on back order, concrete pump won't prime, concrete pump broke curb getting into position, PT sill material looks like a pile of skiis, excavator wants to backfill after 4 days, framer gets hit by bus and never shows up, framer 2 calls to say he's now working for the truss plant (?), neighbor raises holely heck when dirt pushes a board off his fence and his 13 year old blind dog limps down the alley, plumber confuses our job with another and installs wrong chopper pump in basement, roofer gets wrapped up in meth and only works an average of an hour a day and has to commute on a bike since his truck was sold for drugs (!), electrician grossly underbids and pitches a bitchh all day when additional expensive hardware is needed to pass inspection, sheetrock crew shows up before insulation is finished, insulation crew takes cabinet guy's impact driver, insulation crew employees all quit or are all fired, r-11 removed and replaced with specified r-13, etc.
The importance of frequent updates couldn't have been shown more clearly than when I finished some trim and hung a few doors for a lady 3 years ago who had a very well paid carpenter working on her remodel for 6 months and he simply disapeared. He left behind a couple thousand dollar check for his last invoice and some tools. One day he just fell off the map.
Construction is full of guys, even great guys in business for decades, who go out of business for one reason or another and I'm not trusting enough to wait a week between updates.
being responsible only for satisfactory completion of the work
That sounds good, but it's just not how human nature works. The process of building is every bit as visable as the finished product so clients (homeowners or contractors) often put much more emphasis on how the process looks than they should, and always will.
On a practical side there are some issues that have to be nipped in the bud or they will haunt the house. For instance the flattest walls and best installed sheetrock won't matter much if all the corner bead is installed 1/4-3/8" proud of the face of the rock. Let the sub keep going and there is nothing that can be done to fix it, despite his claim that they'll float it out. It's just not possible to float out 3/8" on a smooth wall finish.
Same goes for bad flashing for a roofer, bad layout for framers, etc.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
In our type of remodeling and custom building rarely does a day go by that doesn't have something out of the ordinary happen....
Have to laugh--change the materials somewhat and your list sounds surprisingly similar to the stories my husband brings home. Nuclear waste repository. Daily (hourly if the event is significant enough) phone calls to all involved parties are de facto procedure.
Kathleen
Looked at from that POV
That point of view is simply to suggest that a sub to us is no different that what we are to the client, not who calls who.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I think a daily progress report is a bit much. people like to know what is happening with their house however. I suggest buying a digital camera and taking a bunch of photos as the week progresses and about once a week, dump the photos in an e-mail and send it to the owners. a pictures worth a thousand word and it's quick. emailing updates and questions and clarifications are also a great way to keep a record of what's been discussed. I actually don't like to phone for discussing details.
My 2 cents,
Jason
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
"I actually don't like to phone for discussing details."Some items are better done by phone and some are better handled by correspondence.
When you do it by email, it saves a lot of phone tag and dealing with message machines or voice mail, plus it leaves a trail of correspondence for documentation should the need arise.Also, certain HOs are more likely toget the email from me than a phone call, simple because they are the kind of person who can prattle on for half an hour while saying precisely nothing, putting me at risk of sounding rude when I cut them off, no matter how tactfully I do it.
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I dont do phones, I cant hear on the phone, cant hear a phone ring, cell or house. It pisses people off, My boss has me on radio where he can holler at me to pick up..Haga su trabajo de fricken
there's treatments for that ya know?
;)Yah, me neither
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was born deaf, not much they can do.Haga su trabajo de fricken
I see.Is that related to your language problems too or separate. I think you once mentioned coming from a different culture....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm just waiting for BB's reply to this. I'm laughing inder my breath currently.
Don't want to be an azz making fun of a real handicap. But after reading so many of his posts here...................[email protected]
My parents are from another country, a country without a democratic government. My brother too. I was born in Nebraska, first in my family. But, my dad served 27 years in the US Air Force.I can hear but, I cannot hear high frequency, I can hear you talking to me five foot away but if other people are talking like a group party, forget it, it just a rumble. Ten feet be hard. I really need to be looking at you. If you are off to one side forget it.they tell me it is 70 % lost, but its always been like that so I know no better. I can hear my TV humming, crickets, some birds, really need to be looking at them.I cannot hear telephones ring, pagers, some backup alarms, cell phones. anything with a high frequency. Its like its never there. I can hear my radio because boss will yell "Hey, Hey" but talking on cell phones its got to be very quiet, no traffic noise.Its not a handicap because I never had it. It just others that will not pay attention when talk too. So every food order is wrong. Or people start laughing at you. Little kids make fun of you.We had a break in at work, called the cops. took a hour and a half for the operator to send the cops because she would not listen. I had to hang up and she trace the call location.But it has its advantage . I can call you today and then not talk to you for ten years or never see you in person and within three seconds."Oh hey, how you been" Everybody know me because of my voice.So a typical day is " What, what, what, what, what" I have got where I just write notes.I always wanted to learn spanish so I have an accent instead of a speech impairment.Haga su trabajo de fricken
Edited 8/16/2007 9:23 pm by brownbagg
Well, that certainly explains a lot. Including a lot of the frustration with people in general.If you pronounce words the way you hear them, and you don't hear them like everyone else, then you won't pronounce them like everyone else and will be hard to understand.If it's not too prying, did you ever have any speech therapy? I know some deaf people can learn to speak (well, obviously, you can speak, and by some definition you are deaf), with varying degrees of success at becoming intelligible to those who can hear. It's more difficult when you can't hear, because you have to rely on feedback from someone or something else as to whether or not you are producing the desired sound.I would assume it's also more difficult as an adult than as a kid.Rebeccah
did you ever have any speech therapy?when I went to school, speech therapy was just special education. The class of the retard as we called them. but since I had no problem with reading or problem solving like math, I just kept quiet, just a normal kid that doesnt talk..Haga su trabajo de fricken
"Its not a handicap because I never had it."
Pretty cool out look there. You have my admiration. DanT
you hearing sounds like mine, only worse. I dislike phone conversations and have to turn off all other noises. Having a conversation at a party where 20 people are talking is impossible for me - can't separate all the sounds to anything meaningful. I use the speaker phone a lot.So if you spell phoneticly, and are hard of hearing, that explains somethings too.Sometimes it is handy being half deaf though!
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I too agree that their request is a little on the excessive side. Would they be able to live with a milestone or weekly report? They have to realize that they are taking a heck of a chance in not being there while the job is going on.... it may be in your best interests to keep them informed as much as you can, especially when the finer details start getting done. Example, why did you put slider doors on this closet, wasnt that supposed to be a pocket door? things like that, if not fully detailed in the contract will cause some re-work, and in that case, who is liable for that?