Let me back up a little. After the original phone call, the homeowners e-mailed me their plans for a bid. For a couple weeks after that we communicated constantly over the phone and via e-mail. I would continuously draft up proposals, and they would find something they wanted to change.
Finally, when we settled on an agreement, they decided to meet me in person. We sat down at a local restaurant to go over their plans. With their personaly drafted prints spread over the dining table, I tried to answer all of their questions, and pointed out problems I had seen in the copy they e-mailed me beforehand. This included their idea to use a big steel I-beam for a ridge board that would be unsupported by any posts.
Homeowner plans are of course almost always inadequate. Since they draw up the plans themselves, you can’t really charge them a “design fee.” After all, they think their design is complete. I think I would like to incorporate a policy though, where I charge a fee for analyzing plans drawn up by homeowners. I’m not sure what to call it yet. “Inadequate plan fee” describes it perfectly, but it sounds a little offensive.
Now I’ll get to the reason why I’m going into all of this background. When we met to sign the contract, I was completely dismayed when the homeowners pulled out a revised set of plans just as I was pulling out my pen. “Just a couple of changes, nothing major,” they claimed. We were going to attach plans to the contract before signing it, and the attached plans would become part of the agreement. They handed a copy to me, and they had one ready for themselves.
I was in complete shock. We had spent so much time getting things settled. Now I felt tremendous pressure to give the homeowners the structure they wanted, but I felt I had no time to examine the details. When I asked the homeowner if he could be more specific, he mumbled something that I was to nervous to really register. I decided to go ahead and sign. The changes ended up including the addition of two skylights, a red iron boat rack, and a staircase, all in exchange for the elimination of an interior wall!
I’m guessing the best I can do to prevent this from happening in the future, is to incorporate a policy made known to the homeowners that absolutely no changes can be made the day of signing the contract. This needs to be made very clear.
How would you have handled the situation?
–T
Replies
I wouldn't have signed. Given your description of the circumstances, my radar would have gone off, I would have passed on the job.
Homeowner plans, bait and switch at the signing, tradeoff for the interior wall- that spells trouble with a capital T. And that was before you even started the job! I guarantee you will have nothing but trouble with these clients, you're gonna suffer and wish you had never done business with them. If it were me, nothing, including money, would compensate for the anxiety and ills that are sure to ensue.
Sorry I am being so blunt, but that is my gut/unadulterated reaction to what you have described. Any way to cut your losses and move on?
maybe you've missed the first two in this Made-for-TV series...
This job apperantly happened about a year ago.
Two more threads in the Business Folder with similiar names, part 1 & 2
Actually, I DID read the first two threads. T asked what any of us would have done in the situation that he described in the first post of THIS thread.Perhaps I am still missing something, but it sounds like T wants advice from BT'ers on how to establish his relationship with his clients, and wants to be able to address potential problems in the future, in particular with the shape of his contracts, all as exemplified in his past experience with this particular homeowner.N'est pas? My bad if I'm still getting it wrong.I guess my main point was to learn to recognize when to bail, the 'radar' part. Just MHO.
Edited 8/15/2007 1:51 am by kenhill3
Correctimundo!Too many changes are the prime tip-off that they don't really even know what they want themselves so they will end up unhappy with what they get because it isn't what they expected, all be cause they don't have a clue.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
T, this one is really pretty basic.
First, don't meet with potential clients at a restaurant to finalize a deal. To many distractions. I've read that it's better to have the clients come to your office to take them out of their environment and put them in yours, if you have an office. I have my own personal feelings about doing it in their home, but that's a different discussion.
Second, You most likely can not build off H/O provided drawings, accepting them is nuts, sure they'll have ideas you'll incorporate into the final drawings, maybe even the entire floor plan, but someone who knows what they're doing needs to draw them up. Either you(if your capable and trained), which you get paid for, or an architect who get's paid. Something like a simple bathroom remodel I MIGHT take their drawing and go with it. A whole house... come on man,
at that point you should have told them they have great ideas but you need a professional set of plans drawn up to construct the house. you can not build anything with out a good plan, if you try it's going to end up costing more and far more problems.
Third, you don't need a fee to look at their plans, you need to sell/convince them on the necessity of the plans, again, back to the communication, if you had communicated to them why you needed professional plans and why theirs would not work you would not have had this problem. And I know you're thinking that there is no way you can tell the H/O their plans are not good enough, but yes you can, you just need to learn how to phrase it and explain it, you just can't make the statement with out providing a rational reason that they can understand... If they won't listen, then walk.
Fourth, Stop with all the Policy's and the legal clauses for your contract, you CAN NOT cover all basis in writing in one blanket document for all your projects. Start using your head. If something doesn't feel right, then most likely it isn't and adjust and act accordingly The idea that customers can not make changes on the day you sign the document is stupid. For starters you shouldn't get to the day you sign papers until you're both comfortable with the final proposal.
If it does happen then adjust and re-group accordingly, you do not just go forward with the changes at the same price to keep them happy. I've sold extra work the day we signed the contract, if it's a small item for a client I trust AND I can comfortably price it on the spot it get's written by hand on both copies of the proposal and we both initial and date it.
If it's a larger item I'll either offer to go back and re-draft the proposal and come back or tell them we can sign the proposal as is and I'll execute a change order in the next day or so. The project manager in me prefers to re-draft the proposal and get it all straightened out on the front end, I hate starting a project with a C/O, the salesman in me wants me to sign the document and take them off the market as quick as possible.
What you should have done is said; Mr & Mrs. Smith, at first glance, those changes look good to me, I'll need some time to review them and adjust my proposal accordingly. I want you guys to have everything you desire in your new home but I need some time to study them and make the proper adjustments to both the job specifications and the final contract price, can we schedule a meeting for tomorrow at 10am to get back together and finalize this deal.
What I think you really should have done is punted the whole damn job from the get go. 1) They're G/Cing their own home 2) they've showed themselves to not be capable of this, 3) they brought you chicken scratch plans 4) they couldn't finalize a design. What the hell was so special about this job again?
"What the hell was so special about this job again?"He is young and it was his first "big break"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"First, don't meet with potential clients at a restaurant to finalize a deal. To many distractions. I've read that it's better to have the clients come to your office to take them out of their environment and put them in yours, if you have an office."
Don't have an office. Just to clarify, the final signing of the contract didn't take place at the restaurant, it took place at the site. Some time and more communications occurred via phone and e-mail before we met for the signing. Also, I wasn't going to travel three hours out of state to sign in their home.
"you shouldn't get to the day you sign papers until you're both comfortable with the final proposal."
Before meeting at the site to sign, we had both agreed we we were comfortable. But I guess what you're saying is I shouldn't have signed that day unless I was comfortable with it.
"What you should have done is said; Mr & Mrs. Smith, at first glance, those changes look good to me, I'll need some time to review them and adjust my proposal accordingly. I want you guys to have everything you desire in your new home but I need some time to study them and make the proper adjustments to both the job specifications and the final contract price, can we schedule a meeting for tomorrow at 10am to get back together and finalize this deal."
Because they were from out of state, they had driven thee hours just to sign the contract at the site that Saturday. While I couldn't reasonably schedule a meeting with them the next day, I can see I should've insisted putting the revisions in a change order.
"they brought you chicken scratch plans"
I should've clarified my statement "homemade plans." I used the phrase for lack of a better one. The husband - a food scientist - somehow had access to a computerized drafting machine at work. The prints were very clear, just inadequate.
Edit: I'm not trying to say your post does not apply, I'm just trying to fill in some details in case they help clarify anything. Thanks for the advice.
-T
Edited 8/15/2007 1:43 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
Just a suggestion relating to the client living three hours away. I don't know if you live in a popular vacation area or what, but if this situation is common I would look into renting a conference room at a local hotel.I once had a job interview with a guy who worked out of his home. He rented a conference room at the Holiday Inn or something like that and we had plenty of time & privacy to discuss whatever we needed. This one in particular had a long table with seating for about 12. The entrance was right off of the lobby so it wasn't like walking in to a hotel room to do business.I've always kept that option in the back of my mind, as we do not have an office at this point.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In many areas there are Office Suite. Normally one or 2 rooms per suite plus common areas for a shared receptionist, phone system, coppier, mail& fax, break rooms, and conference rooms.Now the office rent out by the month. But many of them will rent out the conference room per day or maybe 1/2 day..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"Third, you don't need a fee to look at their plans, you need to sell/convince them on the necessity of the plans, again, back to the communication, if you had communicated to them why you needed professional plans and why theirs would not work you would not have had this problem. And I know you're thinking that there is no way you can tell the H/O their plans are not good enough, but yes you can, you just need to learn how to phrase it and explain it, you just can't make the statement with out providing a rational reason that they can understand... If they won't listen, then walk."Often it is not a case of selling them the need for plans. Start asking questions until they see the weakness. Are these dimension from the bare studs are finished walls, etc.I used to design industrial controls and would often get specs that great on the basics of what they wanted it to do, but often missing credical details.For example the system might have a start button and a stop button and they would detail all of the steps that the system would go through when either was pressed.But then I would ask what it should do if both are pushed. Their response was "I don't know".And I would repeat that it has to be a defined condtion. Their response "well I don't care it can do anything".So I say that I will add to the spec that if both buttons are pressed the system will blow up.About that time they realize that the specs are only an outline and LOTS more details are needed..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It's not giving homeowners what they want I so dilike. I love doing that! I just hate it when they think they shouldn't have to pay for it.
-T
Edited 8/16/2007 2:05 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
I've been reading along, following your saga and sometimes seeing myself in your shoes, back about forty years ago.
First questions to the HO on a job of this type should be: Have you obtained a building permit? Has the building department approved your drawings and specs?
The reason for proceeding according to local ordinances, particularly when a homeowner GC's the job, is pretty obvious. You got to cover your butt with the building dept., step by step, or you're likely to get a stop work order, just when you're fully committed, up and running at full steam.
Let the building department in on everything. Sell that move to the HO as a requirement for getting a CO. That will take the pressure off you and put it on the HO, where it belongs.
Be more business-like when negotiating the contract. Start establishing your authority as the central figure early on.
Make sure that any changes will require a change order, signed by the HO. The additional time should be billed by the hour, at full rate+profit. In other words, make it more expensive for the HO to change things than it would for him/her to get things finalised prior to signing the contract.
Following those few simple points will eliminate a lot of the PIA problems which the HO can throw at you.
"First questions to the HO on a job of this type should be: Have you obtained a building permit? Has the building department approved your drawings and specs?"
I asked the first question, and the answer was yes. In regards to the second question, the building department doesn't approve specs in the rural resort area they were building in. I know, awfully lenient, but that's the way it is in my location.
I tried suggesting he have his plans review by an engineer (also not required in my area), but it just so happened that his brother was an engineer - a boat engineer anyway.
-T
Edited 8/15/2007 11:11 am by JourneymanCarpenterT
T,You seem to have found an excuse or reason why every critizism of what you did does not apply to your nit pickingly exact circumstances.What does that mean?SamT
"You seem to have found an excuse or reason why every critizism of what you did does not apply to your nit pickingly exact circumstances.
What does that mean?"
I don't think that's so at all. I think a lot of the "criticism" applies. I'm just trying to paint a clear picture without giving every little detail in one book size long post. Even when I explain why (at least partially) I made some of the decisions I did, it doesn't mean I think the advise was no good.
Thanks to everyone for their replies.
-T
Edited 8/15/2007 1:45 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
Oh, I see.SamT
I asked the first question, and the answer was yes. In regards to the second question, the building department doesn't approve specs in the rural resort area they were building in. I know, awfully lenient, but that's the way it is in my location.
I tried suggesting he have his plans review by an engineer (also not required in my area), but it just so happened that his brother was an engineer - a boat engineer anyway.
A boat engineer? Maybe that's why you're left floating alone. And it may be why you'll need to float a loan. ;-)
Anyway, this one's behind you now, right? So my suggestions are about future clients.
I'm sure you're getting the hint, from me and others, that you take a central position during future discussions with HOs. If they insist on too much control, take it as a sign, the big red octagonal kind.
Edit: I met a new guy in our rural neighborhood at a local hang-out, an automotive garage. We both rode motorcycles so we got aquainted on group rides out of that shop.
When he learned that I was a carpentry contractor he asked if I'd like to bid on a custom kitchen installation, a remodel designed by the company he worked for. I said yes, so he dropped off a set of plans a couple days later.
The drawings were very impressive, a dozen or more large sheets with lots of detail, but no specs.
I met with Robert a couple days later and asked for more information, preferably a look at the job site. Not possible, says he. How about showing me one of your other jobs? Nope, not possible. O.K. then let's meet at your show room or your cabinet shop. Sorry, we don't have either of them. We go strictly on referals and all our cabinets are built by subs. Well then, can I talk to one of your other installation subs, just to find out if your company is legitimate? Why would you think we're not legitimate? Look at our beautiful kitchen drawings.
I handed him back his drawings and said, "no thanks." It was mildy frustrating, not to find a way to do business with that company, but what else could I do? His assurance that they were a very high end design and sales company, doing only the finest work for the best clients did nothing for me.
"You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em."
Edited 8/15/2007 12:38 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
His assurance that they were a very high end design and sales company, doing only the finest work for the best clients did nothing for me.
Makes me think of the clients that tell me "If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"
I can't think of a single time that when that's been said to me that's it's actually happend. Then again I don't drop the price for it either ;)
"If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"
I have a new sales guy working for me and couple of times he has come rushing in excited about that exact statement. Only takes a minute or so to beat that thought down lol. Good to hear it is used universally! DanT
It's probably something homeowners are told to tell contractors on DIY web-sites .
No, it's code. It means, "If you save me enough money on this project, I'm hoping I'll still have some money left over that I can spend on other projects." The problem is, the combination of not having any idea how much it really costs with not really having enough money to do what they think it costs virtually guarantees that they won't have enough money for any future projects.BTDTGTTS.Rebeccah
I used to hear that line from real estate agents.It was code for "whatever you can shave off this bid, I can put in my pocket"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
don't even get me started on real estate agents
combination of not having any idea how much it really costs with not really having enough money to do what they think it costs.
Ok, I'll give that may be partially true.
As for thinking they know what it cost... I love that one... I'll ask their budget and honestly I expect them to lie to me when I ask but it at least brings it up and they're usually not lying by that much. I try to wait until I feel I've gained enough crediability and trust to bring it up, but they're still going to low ball it.
My favorite is when they say I don't know... Yeah right, you don't know how much you have budgeted or how much you can afford? But I do understand that what they're saying is they have no idea and they are scared I'll go with what ever they say.
Then I tell them what I think a reasonable range will be and they tell me: oh know we thought it would it be, what ever it is, usually about half, then I ask how they came up with that number, why do you think that, who told you that,
not in an aggressive manner, I do it polietly, then I get a blank stare and no answer... I'll discuss it further with reasonable people., the fun ones are the ones that keep arguing that their price must be correct even though it's based on nothing
"If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"
I've heard that line too. It makes me think "oh great, if I take a hit on this project, I'll get to work on several more low-profit opportunities"
In actuality, wether they thought they were getting a good price or not, I've NEVER had a customer who said that, subsequently call me back for more work. And I am called back regularly by about 1/2 of my customers.
See my reply to CAGIV.Rebeccah
His assurance that they were a very high end design and sales company, doing only the finest work for the best clients did nothing for me.
Makes me think of the clients that tell me "If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"
I can't think of a single time that when that's been said to me that's it's actually happend. Then again I don't drop the price for it either ;)
Ain't it the truth. The old "sharpen you pencil, I've got a lot more work for you" routine.
The custom cabinet thing was a new approach for me. The guy took the attitude that I had to prove my worth to him, before I got any closer to his company's operation.
He lived in a neighborhood where several of my custom homes stood out among the more common ranch houses, like his. Yet his attitude was that his company had nothing to prove and that I should be happy to be considered worthy to serve.
Can you imagine the kind of smile he got from me, as I handed back the roll of prints? It was the same smile he got from me, any time I bumped into him afterwards. BTW, he sold his place and moved a couple years later. Never did hear why.
In other words: You might loose money on every project, but you'll make it up in volume ????HVC says:
Makes me think of the clients that tell me "If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"I can't think of a single time that when that's been said to me that's it's actually happend. Then again I don't drop the price for it either ;)
In other words: You might loose money on every project, but you'll make it up in volume ????
LOL...yeah, that's it. The faster I go, the behinder I get.
"If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"
You mentioned that they must be getting that line on DIYers.com or some such place but it must be the most used phrase out there to chisel the price down.
We(painter and I) were talking at work today - he's doing a lot of side work and he mentioned that the a HO used that line on him. I told him "DO NOT DROP YOUR PRICE BECAUSE OF PROMISED WORK DOWN THE ROAD" That "down the road work" never shows its face and you end up working for penuts.
I cant believe people still use that line, must still work!
Doug
"If you give us a good deal on this project we have several other we'll have you do"Like many others here I have heard this so many times I'm sick of it. This thin promise has never ONCE materialized in my experience.I am so tired of hearing this from clients/potential clients, that I'm now pretty much conditioned to walk when I hear it. I've no time left in my life for this crap. If I were selling rolls of carpet it would perhaps be one thing- but selling myself short on my time is to devalue and disrespect myself.
I use the phrase occaisionaly. I think it helps to put things in a little perspective. I met with a framer a few weeks back on an out of town job. He was a recommendation from the plumber. He would be contracted to build a forty foot demising wall, two 12' office walls and a 42" pony wall about 15' long. He would supply the 25 gauge steel studs and labor. I happen to mention that I have a pretty sure contract in about 6 months in his area for a much larger commercial project. If everything went well on this project I would be happy to use him on that one too. I expected this to make him feel like I was not just a guy he would never see again. This other project is real by the way. His quote was faxed to me a few days later for $32,000. I can fly my crew there put them up at the Hilton pay them triple time and still come out ahead. He will not be asked to bid another project, ever.
I also give preferential treatment to customers who provide steady work and are easy to deal with. It may just be a case of putting the cart before the horse.
Jason
With homeowners and subs/co-tradesmen that you've built a relationship with, I agree with you 100%. In fact, we do business in that manner quite often, good things go around and come back to ya in spades. But it's when the line is used like bait that irks me.
"Inadequate plan fee" = "plans review and engineering check fee"
with that change in plans, I would have said, thank you for this copy. I will take it back to the office to analyze again and get back to you with the change in cost.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
There is simply no way to really anylize and come to a complete concensus on whether these people were good clients or bad. 2 reasons that I see. 1) you keep feeding information on their actions piece meal to defend your position 2) you simply mishandled a number of issues in my mind.
However.........we have all done it. The advice from Cag and Piffin as always is sound and well thought out. I hold myself in a constant state of defense with clients and am the type to want to control the deal. If I can't to my satisfaction..........I walk. Initial establishment of ground is always critical to me. This does not mean I am rude, unfriendly or for that matter stating my intention I just do certain things that keep the ball in my court.
I never give a ball park price. I always go back to the shop to figure all prices or changes so my mind is clear. I really believe that strategy is right behing price in importance when figuring a job.
I have been in the very situation you describe (minus the restraunt, I wouldn't do that either) and I simply say "great, we can sign the contract as is and I will process the changes as a change order, how does that sound?" I have never had anyone say no although a few weren't wild about it.
I, like the others don't think you can contract your way out of every situation. Your thought earlier that a contract is the true description of what is to be done while being techincally correct is at times not real world with difficult clients. I had one lady who didn't like the surround she was getting say "I know I signed the contract and that is the surround it says I am getting but I was confused and didn't understand!".
We bit the bullet and gave her a better surround, even though it cost us a couple hundred. We have since recieved 4 referals from her and her friends were much more down to earth and frankly had more money. At the end of the day having profitable jobs and walking away with the money is winning the war, don't get lost in trying to win all the battles along the way. DanT
"1) you keep feeding information on their actions piece meal"not unlike the way the client fed him changes and information, eh?Sounds like a marriage made in Hades
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I, like the others don't think you can contract your way out of every situation.
I tell my clients that all the time. The best contract can't make up for a bad owner. Sometimes you just need to say no thanks to a job and move on.
A contract is only there to define what went wrong and who did it for th e judge. Once a contractor gets that far in the hole, it is too late!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin -
Actually, a contract is a legally binding document wherin all the signatories get to express - in obtuse legalese - each and every reason why they distrust one another. - lol
A contract is only there to define what went wrong and who did it for th e judge. Once a contractor gets that far in the hole, it is too late!
I tell my clients the same thing. If you need to refer to the contract to see who wins the lawsuit, you've already lost. Of course then I do OK:)
All three threads have the same thing in common. This is not the homeowner from hell, at least not yet. It's a homeowner who doesn't know any better. The problem is that the contractor's allowing the inexperienced HO to take the lead. Who's the professional? Who's supposed to know how to get from start to finish? The contractor, who's supposed to have done this all before, is the one who should take the bull by the horns and specify how things progress from first contact to contract to move-in. Most HO's are inexperienced at this, and looking for someone in whom they can place their confidence. But so far, the contractor has let the HO call all the shots.
I have a client who, out of naivete, is trying to force things out of sequence. Wanted a price before we'd established scope. I have to strong-arm her a bit to keep things on the right track. She's not the client from hell. She's just a person nervous about doing something she's never done before, which is spending a large chunk of her savings on a house.
The contractor needs to take charge through force of will, through personality, through assertiveness, or whatever you want to call it. If the contractor knows how the job should progress, they need to show that to the client.
>Now I felt tremendous pressure to give the homeowners the structure they wanted
>I decided to go ahead and sign.
>I'm guessing the best I can do to prevent this from happening in the future, is to incorporate a policy made known to the homeowners that absolutely no changes can be made the day of signing the contract.
These are all bad signs. You should have felt no pressure. You should be showing the clients how to do this, rather than reacting (badly) to everything they do, as they don't have the experience to really know what they're doing. And you need to get out of the mindset of thinking that you can legislate against everything a client might say or do, especially after they've done it. Get ahead of the curve, and show them how a job needs to progress.
When you said, "I decided to go ahead and sign. The changes ended up including the addition of two skylights, a red iron boat rack, and a staircase, all in exchange for the elimination of an interior wall,"
my thoughts regressed back in time to an old film with "Robby the Robot" saying, "DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!"
Why oh why would you agree to do any part of this when you feel pressured?
I have read all 3 of your stories, and I have to agree with someone else that the title is wrong. The HO's are not the problem. You gave in to their unrealistic demads without considering the consequences. Unfortunatle yit's part of your education, and you're stuck with the project now. Good luck.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
My comments are as a homeowner who is planning to start a long-distance construction project next spring.
There seems to be the impression on your part that "professional" and "being the boss" mean it's your job and your work and nobody--especially unknowledgeable homeowners--should interfere. Talk to anyone in what our society traditionally refers to as a "profession" and I think you'd find 180 degrees opposite--regardless of your rank, you have lots of bosses, lots of people to please, lots of reporting requirements--varying degrees of competency and knowledge among the people you interface with. It's part of the job.
In software engineering, we used to talk about "managing customer expectations". During design and progress reviews, customers were always asking "can we do this?" We repeatedly explained to customers that the question was seldom "can it be done" but "how much will it cost and how will it impact deadlines?" We repeatedly explained this because our customers were so used to being told that so many things couldn't be done. (Our customers really liked working with us, by the way.)
You want the homeowners to tell you up front exactly what they want, even though, from your perspective, the homeowners are ignorant on what it takes to build a house. So they are ignorant, and you don't like the iterative nature of designing a custom home. Simply specify that all plans must come from an architect's shop--a professional building specification writer--that should take care of the problem.
Again from software engineering. We worked hard to involve our customers in the design, implementation, and testing phases--in other words, pretty much the entire project--to whatever extent they were interested in participating. We taught them how to talk to us, taught them how to use our design software, let them sit and look over our shoulders and ask questions while we worked. Slowed things down a little up front, but the pay-off was terrific: the final design was exactly what the customer wanted; those customer reps who had worked with us knew the system and could train the rest of their folks; and the customer reps, having had significant input into the system, were fabulous promoters of our shop.
Your customers pulled some last-minute contract changes on you AND had some work done outside your control. Very poor on the part of the customer. If the attitudes that I'm getting from you are what they are getting, they are not entirely sure how to approach you, they don't understand why things are already going south--and their discomfort is causing them to behave in a fashion that further irritates you. If you don't want to deal with customers, hire someone to do the customer interface or it will be your undoing--not all of our software engineers were permitted to talk with customers except under controlled conditions--bad for business.
Professionals work out solutions to problems. You need to meet with your customers, discuss your issues and proposed compromises, and help them present their concerns and get those worked out as well.
Kathleen
My comments are as a homeowner who is planning to start a long-distance construction project next spring.
Seriously, how do you expect to participate in the construction of your new home without being there? If you were there, what could you do to facilitate construction? Do you have any skills or experience which are pertinent? If so, how do they fit in the construction process?
Honestly, it's better for you and your GC if you continue to imagine that you are "building" a new home. I'm always willing to allow the homeowner that little illusion, as long as they don't bother me during working hours.
HVC -
I've been reading this thread - and the others you've started and I'm really wondering if this is the right profession for you. In my four careers over the last 40+ years, one of the most important things I've learned (with considerable difficulty, at times) is that customer relations is what it's all about. No two are alike and they all require some amount of "handling", but they're writing the checks that pays your mortgage and puts the groceries on the table.
Once upon a time, I also thought it would be wonderful if the customer would just disappear until the job was done and then write the check when I left. Maybe I'm older and much more mellow these days, but I actually enjoy that customer contact now.
It's fun listening to them talk about something that they saw on HGTV and then pointing out all the stuff they didn't notice that was totally off the wall. When I get to a place where a choice is necessary, I find that most customers really like getting involved in the decision making. I'll tell them that choice A will mean this, and this, and this. Choice B will mean that, and that, and that. Sometimes, it takes a bit of teaching so they can make the "best" choice, but it is their house, isn't it? - lol
You really need to lighten up. Those customers are in unfamiliar territory and they've heard countless horror stories about contractors from hell. Make it your job to show them that you're one of the "good guys" and they may become customers from heaven instead of Hades.
Some of mine have.
HVC didn't start the thread. It is journeyman carp that you should have been adressing.But I agree with what you say. The communications and cust relations dept is where he needs improvement if he is going to be self employed.but he is young yet, still time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I been reading this post but no paying much attention to it. My mind was on a flat tire on the truck. A tire that been repaired three times to $12 a repairI ask the "Professional " to put a patch on the inside where I knew a plug was leaking. "Sure sir, no problem" Three repairs later, it(something) leaking. So I check the tire on the lift and that plug is leaking. He a professional.Maybe the customer just wanted the house built their way. They want this, they want that. Just their way. They are paying the bill. why cant they have it their way. Its like that movie "When Harry met Sally" and that lady just wanted it her way, she was paying the bill.So we here are professional, we know more than the customers. we are professional. But how come the State of Mississippi just indicted 276 contractor for being professional and running off with their money without doing work. Just plain fraud. But hey we are professionalAnd I still cant get a hamburger with cheese, I hate tea.So you have to tell the tire repair professional, step by step
tell the burger joint, step by step.
tell the government contractor tweep step by stepmaybe the professional need to just do their fricken job..I'm a man, you got to respect me as a man, I'm a man
Dave
I'm retired from competitive contracting, working with clients, so you needn't worry about me. I only build for me and my family now.
It's true that my attitude toward some types of clients isn't all warm and fuzzy. I got stung several times, early on, once pretty badly. Those experiences taught me to be more circumspect in all life encounters where something is expected of me.
My biggest mistakes as a contractor were; trying to wear too many hats, in order to satisfy the customer, not writing specific enough contracts and making too many concessions on changes and other extra services.
I found that the best way to avoid those mistakes was to focus on the work and not the customer, not during working hours. So I asked my clients to hold all questions until the day's work was complete. That way they got my full attention, with a smile, when it was most appropriate.
My main job was running my crew, teaching skills and techniques and keeping the job moving at a good pace. I was never good at changing modes, from fast paced physical work, to smiling diplomat, and I didn't believe that the client should expect that of me at a moment's notice, so I stipulated that they were not to interrupt me during working hours.
I used that belief in the division of roles, and the attitude that went with it, to take my proper measure of authority, during the early stages of contract negotiations. I was always polite to my clients but I made sure that they understood my position. As a result I have a reputation as a reliable, skillful contractor who takes charge and performs according to his word.
Some of my clients have warned other potential clients that I'm not very sociable during working hours but that's fine with me. I'm not there to hold anyone's hand.
If they want that kind of contractor, they can hire a bigger firm for a lot more money. Then someone from the sales department can take those phone calls and explain things, any time they get the urge.
Now F off, will ya? I'm workin' ovah here. ;-)
Seriously, how do you expect to participate in the construction of your new home without being there? If you were there, what could you do to facilitate construction? Do you have any skills or experience which are pertinent? If so, how do they fit in the construction process?
Honestly, it's better for you and your GC if you continue to imagine that you are "building" a new home. I'm always willing to allow the homeowner that little illusion, as long as they don't bother me during working hours.
Being 1200 miles away from the construction site, I am under no illusions as to the amount of physical labor I will be contributing to this project. I should have said "...contracting with a builder to have a house built...." I try to be careful in my choice of words, but sometimes I get in a hurry or overlook things....
Were I on site, what could I contribute, aside from money, beyond the design stage? Well, being a female I'm pretty good at sweeping and general clean-up. I'm also capable of holding the dumb end of a tape measure, running errands, ferrying tools from Point A to Point B, and other basic grunt/gofer work. Not that these require a great deal of skill or time, but they need to be done. And if it frees up our builder to do the higher-level work that he's happier doing, then I get a better product--which means I'm happier, too.
And if my builder likes my work and my attitude, maybe he'd let me try some other simple tasks. I'm not totally without experience (roofing, digging footings, drywall, painting, electrical, plumbing), but I also recognize that there are a number of risks to my builder in allowing customer participation. Being the customer "gets my foot in the door", but beyond that, I would much prefer that any work I do meet my builder's expectations rather than him feeling obliged to cater to my illusions of being a contributor in the construction process.
Furthermore, being the customer, I may be "the boss", but being "the boss" frequently means making sure your employees have the resources they need and running interference with potential distractions--not necessarily "doing" something.
All of that said, and much as I would like otherwise, my on-site involvement will probably be limited to a few strategically timed visits.
Kathleen
Kathleen,
I'm glad to read such a well considered response. You're attitude is much more appropriate than your initial "choice of words" suggested to me.
Wishing you the best possible collaboration, Peter
Wishing you the best possible collaboration.
Thanks. The thing I hate most in life is not knowing what to do, feeling out of place, yet this project is going to put me square in the middle of that.
Kathleen
The thing I hate most in life is not knowing what to do, feeling out of place, yet this project is going to put me square in the middle of that.
The simple answer to that problem is to go over everything about the design very carefully, with your architect, and finalize all the details before construction begins.
That still doesn't assure that everything will go smoothly but at least you will have given your contractor and subs the best possible head start. It will also make your decisions about necessary changes easier for you.
One area where you can be helpful is getting people to respond to each other. You're writing the checks so you hold some high cards in the game.
I've had problems on more than one occasion, as a subcontractor, trying to get proper drawings from the architect. There are details which should be included in any subs set of drawings but are often left out because they require hours of work to produce.
My point here is: make your written agreement with your architect the same as with others , hold a substantial amount of his/her fee until the job is completed and you have been given a certificate of occupancy. That way, when one of your subs asks for a necessary detail drawing, even if it's only to cover his behind legally, you and/or your GC will have the leverage to make it happen. The same thing applies to everyone else, hold money until the work has passed inspection.
Oddly enough, being away from the site may work in your favor, in this regard.
>make your written agreement with your architect the same as with others , hold a substantial amount of his/her fee until the job is completed and you have been given a certificate of occupancy.I don't know if you're distinguishing between architects and designers, but ain't no one holding a substantial (or any) amount of my fee once my drawings are completed and delivered. I'm not going to put my income in the hands of a slow contractor or engineer or banker, for example. I've had clients who decide to DIY build and spread it over years. And one who messed around with money and lost the expected financing when the job was 1/4 built. And one who got a divorce between the completion of the drawings and the pouring of the footers and stopped the job. And a contractor who worked two days a week and jerked the client around for two years.There's no way for a designer who's not contracting the subs to keep track of all of this and have payment contingent upon it. That would make me the first one doing work and the last one being paid, and without any leverage to collect once the house has been built.
There's no way for a designer who's not contracting the subs to keep track of all of this and have payment contingent upon it. That would make me the first one doing work and the last one being paid, and without any leverage to collect once the house has been built.
OK, rather than making me think of you as another prima dona architect/designer who doesn't want to be held accountable for the timely delivery of drawings, why don't you propose a solution to the problem I mentioned?
Edited 8/20/2007 7:54 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
You can think of me as you wish, or not at all. I only care what my clients and the builders of their houses think.> doesn't want to held accountable for the timely delivery of drawingsThat makes no sense. I don't get paid until I deliver the drawings. Repeat. I don't get paid until I deliver the drawings. How is that not accountable? And when I deliver them, just like any other professional, I should be paid--when I deliver them, not at some unknown future date.If you had problems with drawings not being provided in a manner that suited you, then someone picked the wrong designer. But to paint every designer with that brush and characterize them as you did based on the worst of them is as unseemly as if I mischaracterized builders based on the screw-ups. It's not a problem we've ever had on any job, so to withhold substantial payment from just the designer until all contractors are finished, given all the factors unrelated to the drawings that could delay or stop a job, is........fair, yeah, that's it.
That all sounds very high toned and reasonable. Except that I've never seen a set of prints for a custom house that didn't have errors which needed correcting before work could proceed. Lots of errors, lots of corrections and revisions.
As a carpentry contractor, I've learned to inspect prints carefully, going over each phase of my work, long before the time when it's scheduled. Each time I've gone through proper channels to get corrections, revisions and missing pages of details with the required approvals stamped and/or initialed on each page.
Wanna know what percentage of those requests received complete and timely attention? About fifty percent, no more. That leaves me without income so, of course, I'm not happy.
The only real leverage anyone has regarding cooperative efforts by all involved is holding final payments until all work is completed and has passed inspection.
If you couldn't stand having one third of your fee held until all work relating to yours was completed, I wouldn't do business with you. Not as a GC or as a homeowner.
I guess we should both consider ourselves fortunate to be not working with the other.Just for giggles...* One client wanted prints this year but won't build till 2009 or 2010.* One client fired his builder after 18 months and is self-building with a finish date years down the road.* One client had his job outsourced to India the day he was to sign the builder's contract and cancelled the job.* One client spent a year deciding who he wanted as a builder, shopping my drawings around hither and yon till he found one whose personality suited him.How do they square with "If you couldn't stand having one third of your fee held until all work relating to yours was completed..."? I'm supposed to wait till 2010 or 2011 to collect? For work completed in 2007? And I'm supposed to collect a few thousand from a guy who just lost his job? Or, since he's not building after all, do I not get to collect even though the drawings were delivered and acceptable to the builder?On the flip side, I've had bunches of clients select a builder early on, or select me on the recommendation of the builder, with the builder fully in the loop commenting on things as they happened. Hardly the adversarial relationship that seems to be your MO.You don't know squat about how I work with clients and builders, and how cooperatively we all get along, and how smoothly the builds have gone, but don't let that stop you from casting aspersions...###Any other designers or builders have an opinion to share?
Cloud,
You are absolutely correct. Most of the plans I draw for homeowners requires payment in full before I begin. For the few remodelers I draw for it's the same. Not drawing too many houses but they are 50 down 50 on final. I would never wait for the money becuase many of the plans I've drawn are never built. I also have an extensive 30 year background in framing and foundations and have never really had many problems with others plans. that couldn't be settled with a phone call.
Thanks.> they are 50 down 50 on finalI do a token retainer, 50% of balance upon approval of concept, and remainder upon delivery of drawings. Phone calls from builders, or anything additional they need for permits or in the field takes precedence over other design work. It's worked well, and the builders have referred subsequent work to me, so either it's worked for them, too, or they're deluded by my charm and wit. :)
Any other designers or builders have an opinion to share?
Drawings? We don't need no stinking drawings! - -
D Doud - designer/builder/iconoclast/renaissance man....
"there's enough for everyone"
I hope you don't collect on the sale of a basket of peaches until the purchaser has successfully canned the last bit of jam from them.Ha ha ha!
Architects/designers are no better than any subcontractor on the the project. That seems to be a problem for many of you to grasp, about half of you in my experience. That's why you've earned the reputation of being prima donas.
The fact that you ignore that reputation, avoid addressing the problems I've listed, and keep making up reasons why you should always be paid before your work is completed is further proof of why you deserve to known as prima donas.
There will always be special cases where a project won't be completed as planned. It's up to each contractor, including designers, to write agreements which protecct them financially, under those circumstances. In any case, you have recourse to the same legal remedies which are available to every other contractor, liens in particular.
The architect/designer is one of several services which need to be readily available from beginning to completion. The only way I can assure myself that any of those services will be there when needed is to write agreements which stipulate that a substantial amount of their fee is to be paid only when certain conditions are met.
In that regard, I am no different from any intelligent businessperson.
It takes a special kind of person to question the professionalism of someone whom you've not met, whose clients you've not spoken to, and the builders of whose designs you've never heard a disparaging word from.I don't have answers for the problems you've listed, because I've never encountered them, and don't expect to with the way I perform my jobs. If you had problems on that many projects with that many architects, then maybe you should ask yourself what one person all those projects had in common.
"Isn't that special?" ....Dana Carvey
If you had problems on that many projects with that many architects, then maybe you should ask yourself what one person all those projects had in common.
On the projects mentioned, that one person was the architect/designer. I was just one of many subs who lost time because of that one person's irresponsible conduct.
No one was happy about waiting, including the client. The remedy arrived at by all parties, in each case, was that the architect should be treated the same as any other contractor, and that final payment should be tied to a set of conditions being met.
The problem for most clients is that they hire the architect/designer before hiring the GC. So the architect is in a position to dictate payment terms that wouldn't be agreeable to most GCs, were they to be consulted prior to agreements being signed by the client and the architect.
It all comes back to consulting all the proper professionals, before entering into any contracts. When a person new to the building process decides to contract with several people, it would be wise to consult with all the key people, including a lawyer, before entering into any written agreements.
Instead of holding a payment back in case there could be problems, why don't you just check the drawings to see if the drawings are complete before bidding?If the problems are so glaring that you feel the Architect or designer should be able to solve them before construction, you should be able to spot them without investing too much time in the job, no?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If the problems are so glaring that you feel the Architect or designer should be able to solve them before construction, you should be able to spot them without investing too much time in the job, no?
As previously noted, I've learned to go over all drawings long before the work is scheduled. And I have always asked for corrections and/or clarifications, revisions and detailed pages not initially provided.
I'm one among many carpentry contractors, men I've talked with, who have often saved the client, the GC and the architect time and money by forseeing problems in drawings and bringing them to their attention in a timely manner. It's a subject which comes up often during "shop talk" sessions because we feel responsible to warn each other of potential mistakes which can be avoided.
The problem for any sub is that he has to go through the GC or the client, to get to the architect. Communications often break down or the answers are vague or not forthcoming...with the client pointing the finger at the architect or the GC and visa versa.
Weeks can go by without resolution to certain design and engineering issues. In the mean time the time arrives for the carpentry phase of the project to begin. I'm obligated to start but am left waiting for details until past the last minute.
I'm making a big deal about this problem because I think it serves to alert people who are planning to build their first new custom home, about an area of potential problems where they can have a positive impact in keeping the project on track.
It sounds to me like you have a problem with the architect's communication. If the drawings are substantially complete then the architect's responsibility is to communicate the answers in a reasonable amount of time. I think holding payment for the work that has been completed is asking a bit much of the architect. Would you allow a GC to hold back 33% of your framing bid to wait for the trades to finish, and the sheetrock to be installed so that he knows there are no problems with your work?Also, you mention waiting on a GC/Owner to get you the answers you need to start. Maybe the problem is not with the architect exclusively. If you are working with a good GC and you submit an RFI two weeks prior to your commencement of work, I would think he should be able to flush the answers out of the architect.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Maybe I'm missing something, but all of this design stuff seems like a mute point to me.
Do I need a plan before I start a project? Yes, failing to plan is preparing to fail. However, I don't need every little detail written out for me. I could even draw up the plans myself, and any carpenter running his own business should be skilled enough to do so. Can I draw up plans as well as an architect or designer? Of course not, but I am familiar enough with the basic principles to draw them up so that the project will look and function reasonably well.
My point is: Who cares if every little detail isn't written out. I grow tired of following a laborious print anyway, especially when I know of a better way to do something. Any good carpenter should be better able to decide on the strongest and most efficient way to build something than an architect or designer would be. Besides a basic plan, the architect or designer is mostly relied on for their artistic abilities.
In other words, what does it matter to me if I have a designer to consult with or not? The designer's job is to make the product beautiful and comfortable for the homeowner, not to tell me how to build. If his plans don't specify something, and he's no longer involved with the project, than I'll do it the way I think it should be done.
On the other hand, I do think the customer should consult with a builder just as early as he consults with a designer. A contractor needs to be consulted to determine if the design will fit in with the customer's budget.
Finally, it's not the architect's/designer's fault that homeowners often reserve 33% for final payment to contractors. Another thing I should add to my contracts is something that will require payment after every little phase of a project is completed - phases small enough to be completed in a week tops. That's the sort of thing that should be written out with every little detail! If we can't do that, than maybe the architects and designers are smarter that we are!
Some of us here need to stop being such push-overs. Cloud Hidden and Hudson Valley might both have their own points from their own perspective, but every time I hear someone say:
"These aren't the Homeowners from Hades,"
all I hear is, translation:
"These are the very circumstances I deal with all the time because I'm just another builder who's not willing to get off his laurels and change things for the better."-T
My point is: Who cares if every little detail isn't written out. I grow tired of following a laborious print anyway, especially when I know of a better way to do something. Any good carpenter should be better able to decide on the strongest and most efficient way to build something than an architect or designer would be. Besides a basic plan, the architect or designer is mostly relied on for their artistic abilities.
When I started my small construction business, I was able to get permits in my home town and build new homes with very basic drawings. The building inspector was a part timer who knew all the local tradesmen and seldom did any actual inspections.
That was thirty-forty years ago in rural New York State. Things have changed drastically, in that town and almost all others.
As much as I'd like to have the freedom to build according to my own ideas, that's no longer and intelligent choice because of liability issues. If I don't have an accurate approved drawing of a specific feature I can't build it.
Most load bearing features must be sized by engineers. It's just a lot more complicated to get things done now, than in the days when we trusted each other's judgement and ability.
"My point is: Who cares if every little detail isn't written out. I grow tired of following a laborious print anyway, especially when I know of a better way to do something."Don't be trying that under an AIA contract.SamT
" I am no different from any intelligent businessperson."Actaully, if there is any ccarpenter in this forum who ccould be thought of as a primadonaa, it is you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL.
Maybe you'd be so kind to enlighten me, how my replies to questions on the subject of carpentry methods and skills could be considered those of a prima dona.
On the contrary, it's you who often take an authoritarian attitude, criticising suggestions from others before providing your own solutions.
Well, I have never seen a more restricted and unworkable set of requirement for working with a dsesigner than what you put forth here. It is totally rediculous and in my experience woudl deny you the opportunity to work on some - no, most, of the best jobs available.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, I have never seen a more restricted and unworkable set of requirement for working with a dsesigner than what you put forth here. It is totally rediculous and in my experience woudl deny you the opportunity to work on some - no, most, of the best jobs available.
All I've said is that the architect/designer should be willing to wait for final payment, like any other sub on the job, until all his work has been finalized and approved.
If that makes me a prima dona, then there are an awful lot of us in the trades. ;-)
All I've said is that the architect/designer should be willing to wait for final payment, like any other sub on the job, until all his work has been finalized and approved.
It seems to me that you wouldn't start constructing a home until you have a complete set of plans that you have approved. At that point the designer should be paid. If issues arise later in the process then it is the resposibility of the designer to correct mistakes that he may have made.
Do you normally build a home with plans that are not finalized and approved?
It seems to me that you wouldn't start constructing a home until you have a complete set of plans that you have approved.
That's logical, certainly, but not how the custom home process usually works. Until the two dimensional world of ink on paper has been put together, full scale, three dimensional, it's difficult to foresee how every component will relate to it's planned space.
Probably the biggest hurdle is changes by the client, things that require drawings to build accurately.
Edited 8/20/2007 3:12 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Changes initiated by the customer are hardly the responsibility of the designer.
The most common errors I have experience from designers and architects are conflicts between large scale to detail drawing or specification.
I prefer working with architects they tend to produce much better details than their draftsman counterparts.
I am a raging prema donna. I would gladly wait for payment until any indefinate day in the future. Just let me know how much so I can raise my price accordingly.
Journeyman Carpenter T, the difference is not that everyone else is lazy and don't want to deal with fixing the problem. Many builders know how to control the customers expectations because they have done this before. Some one has to control the project if it's not you it's them. The more deals you make the more tools you will have to deal with your customers. You will not feel nearly as surprised the second or third time you have a customer bait and switch you. You can either handle it or not. You may change your contract and hope it changes the outcome in the next project and it may. You also might write a contract that is illegal and completely thrown out in court. Carpentry is not contracting. You have completed a union course in being a skilled carpenter, it took how long to be proficient? Now you are taking on a new job that requires just as much skill and finesse. Don't expect to master it in three months. Contracting requires management of human resources, customers, materials, risk, scheduling, acounting, marketing and warranties. The most difficult is customer relations. Good Luck.
Jason
Changes initiated by the customer are hardly the responsibility of the designer.
He didn't just sell them a suit, he has to do the tailoring too.
Tailoring costs extra.
The architect/designer is one of several services which need to be readily available from beginning to completion.
I agree that can be helpful, or even essential, for the designer to be available. But no one should be expected to give away services for free. If the homeowner (or contractor) wants the architect available during construction, he has to pay for it. Some architects contract for regular observation (not inspection) of construction as it proceeds and some don't. A typical contract between architect and owner provides a fee for design services, payable when the design is complete and further provides for additional hourly charges for changes, consultation during construction, etc. Other contracts, more typically for larger commercial projects, break the fee into phases, with a final phase that includes regular site visits and a (typically small) portion of the fee is to be paid upon substantial completion. Most of the architect's work is complete when the drawings are complete and most of the fee is due then, even where the agreement calls for regular site visits.
Most architects, like most contractors, stand behind their work and will provide a corrected drawing if it is needed because of an error or oversight. No reasonable architect would be willing to let a client hold any portion of the design fee until completion of the project for the reasons others have stated.
No reasonable architect would be willing to let a client hold any portion of the design fee until completion of the project.
What makes that reasonable?
What's reasonable is to be responsible and responsive. The usual method used to insure responsiveness is holding a portion of the money due, until it has been determined that everything fits and no more revisions need to be made.
Just because architects have always had more favorable contracts than other tradesmen doesn't mean that those contracts work well on behalf of the client or others involved. Nor does it mean that architects have established a right to be paid differently than others who provide services to the client.
This is exactly why architects have the reputation of being prima donas. Their contracts allow them to respond according to their own perception of what's timely and appropriate.
No reasonable architect would be willing to let a client hold any portion of the design fee until completion of the project.
What makes that reasonable?
Because he has finished 100% of his work and shouldn't have to wait to get paid until some uncertain date in the future, if at all. If I sell you a cookbook, you don't get to withhold part of the purchase price until your strudle comes out of the oven and wins a blue ribbon at the county fair.
Nor does it mean that architects have established a right to be paid differently than others who provide services to the client.
Does the guy who forms the foundation walls have to wait until the whole house is done before getting paid? The architect does one part of the work involved in creating a house, i.e. prepares specs and draws the plans. When the plans are done, he gets paid. You build the house. When the house is done, you get paid.
The architect with a design contract isn't responsible for the entire project. She doesn't have any obligation to make sure it gets built properly. That's the builder's job. If the plans stink, and as a result you incur additional expense, isn't your gripe with the owner who hired the architect? Think of the architect as a subcontractor of the owner.
Because he has finished 100% of his work and shouldn't have to wait to get paid until some uncertain date in the future
I know of contractors who have waited for the final check until after the work passes inspection, for example.
I don't think HVC is way out of line for asking why architects shouldn't hold back part of their fee until after it's clear that their work is actually buildable.
The biggest difference in the two scenarios is the time lag. Getting a plumbing or framing inspection just takes a few days, typically. But the time delay between finishing the construction drawings and finishing framing is typically months and sometimes longer.
Maybe a sunset clause in the contract between the homeowner and the architect would help. For example, the architect might be willing to wait a month (or whatever is mutually agreeable) before receiving the final payment. That would give some time for the contractor to either look at the plans with a fine-toothed comb, or actually begin construction and see what happens.
I know of contractors who have waited for the final check until after the work passes inspection, for example.
That's right. But they don't have to wait until after the rainy season to show the roof doesn't leak or after winter to show the heat works. If the builder's project turns out to be defective, the owner has certain warranty and/or contract rights. Would a reasonable builder agree that the final payment should be withheld until the warranty period has expired?
Architects are licensed professionals, who typically carry professional liability insurance. If the design is defective, a homeowner can, if necessary, sue for malpractice. A design contract is complete when the design is complete, not when the house is built. Architects don't usually agree to a holdback because they are not responsible for construction, just design.
Maybe a better analogy is to a structural engineer called in by a builder who is designing a new deck for an existing house. The engineer is paid when he provides the structural design and, if necessary, a stamped drawing. His fee is not held back until the deck is built and passes inspection.
This is an interesting comnversation; Architects and those who defend them vs those who depend on them."If the design is defective, a homeowner can, if necessary, sue for malpractice."Kinda puts a hiatus on construction for a couple of years until you get done with your work. In the courtroom, that is (|:>)"A design contract is complete when the design is complete, not when the house is built"It is imposible to know for sure that the design was complete and error free until at least the framing is done. The last time I worked with architects plans was a hospital remodel, granted that's a bit different from a house, but, IMO, the experience is similar enough for comparison.Anyway, we averaged two RFIs per day for nine months regarding errors or omissions in the plans. Obviously the plans were not complete when we started the project, even though we had over 200 RFIs generated just by the plan review process.BTW, 2 RFIs/day overall was less than 1/100 man days, which would average less than 1 RFI per framed house.There are basically three common situations where Architects plans are used in homebuilding:
1. A simple Sale of plans.
2. Where an Architect and Contractor have an ongoing relationship.
3. Where the construction is under an AIA contract.In case #1, I can definately see an argument for holding back 10% of the Archy's fees untill then framing is complete. This would be in the ballpark of $300 to $1000 for 30 to 90 days. I cannot see where this would be an unacceptable financial burden to any established business. This amount is probably just the profit on the transaction and does not cover any OH or Expenses.In case #2, there is a level of trust developed that negates the need.In #3, the Architects work is not complete until the project has been completed, AND, there is a 10% holdback on all other contractors' fees until up to 30 days after the COO is issued. The HO should be able to holdback some of the Archy's fees untill he pays off all his other contractors.SamT
This is an interesting comnversation; Architects and those who defend them vs those who depend on them.
For what it's worth, most of my experience with architects comes from suing them on behalf of my clients. I have never defended one as a client, but I still don't agree that they should be expected to wait to get paid until someone with whom they have no contractual relationship, i.e. the contractor, is satisfied with the design.
In your hospital remodel, I suspect that the contract with the architect provided for more than just design services. Dozens, or even hundreds of RFI's are usual in a complicated job, like a hospital, where even the most detailed drawings can't possibly address everything that will come up.
Scott,I assume you're talking about a simple sale of plans and the Architect has no personal interest in insuring that the completed structure accurately depicts his concept. What continuing obligations does the Architect have to the HO that the plans are workable? Between the Architect and the builder, who is responsible to the HO for changing the plans when thay don't work? In practice, the builder would probably change the plans to work, which would have the side effect of relieving the architect of all liability. Not something a savvy GC would want to do since the Architect is the one who got paid to accept that responsibilty.***"wait to get paid until someone with whom they have no contractual relationship, i.e. the contractor, is satisfied with the design."The Contractor is the knowledgable agent of the HO, his disatisfaction is by proxy, the HO's disatisfaction.SamT
That's right. But they don't have to wait until after the rainy season to show the roof doesn't leak or after winter to show the heat works.
I agree with you here that there is a problem with the time delay, just as I stated in my previous post.
Architects don't usually agree to a holdback because they are not responsible for construction, just design.
But construction and design are intimately related. The whole problem that HVC is describing is that some designs turn out to be unbuildable. Then, the builder is left in a holding pattern with no income being generated at that job site until the someone figures out how to make the plans buildable.
I think it's a valid concern, and HVC is looking for a way to keep the designer focused on providing a speedy resolution to the problem. You're absolutely correct in pointing out that these issues may be brought to court. But that's not exactly going to speed up the process, which is typically the builder's main concern.
The ironic thing is that requiring the architect to wait for final payment until after the design has been proven to be buildable still doesn't solve the problems of lost income, etc. If the error is significant enough, the design modifications will probably require engineering review, and possibly a re-review by the permitting office.
I wish there were a better solution. Unfortunately, I think the best thing a builder can do is look over the plan sets very carefully and identify any major problems before construction begins. One could argue that that's not the job of the builder, but unless the builder wants to run the risk of getting stuck midway through a project, carefully reviewing the plans is time well spent.
Unfortunately, I think the best thing a builder can do is look over the plan sets very carefully and identify any major problems before construction begins. One could argue that that's not the job of the builder, but unless the builder wants to run the risk of getting stuck midway through a project, carefully reviewing the plans is time well spent.
You make a valuable point. I assume any sensible builder will review the plans before agreeing to build the house and certainly before pricing the work. I doubt that very many designs are built without some modifications, however minor, by the builder to reflect the builder's often superior practical knowledge of materials and techniques.
The first paying job I had during my very brief and generally undistinguished career as a contractor was to build a ground level deck around the swimming pool of a professor of architecture. He gave me detailed drawings, showing the deck supported by piers every two feet in every direction. The cross section showed each pier to be six inches of concrete in a hole in the ground. I had to explain that in New England we had frost, so piers needed to be a bit deeper and that maybe we didn't need two hundred piers. He deferred to my apparently superior knowledge as to local building practices and all was well. His design was perfectly buildable, but neither practical nor likely to be effective. I considered it part of my job as contractor to review the plans before starting the work.
Because he has finished 100% of his work and shouldn't have to wait to get paid until some uncertain date in the future, if at all.
Logical? Of course...if his work can be determined to be finished, which in the case of one-off custom home designs, it cannot. The difference is, that in converting two dimensional drawings into three dimensional structures, within which humans are expected to pursue certain personal aims, many an unanticipated problem can arise.
Therefor a continuity of self-motivated interest is required of the architect.
I'd have to say that, until you've been through the process of working co-operatively with a group of independent people who are all trying to satisfy their own desires and the desires of numerous other people while attempting to turn a unique two dimensional design into a real world home, you can't be expected to understand the complexity involved.
So you can argue two dimensional logic and I'll counter with what works in practice.
PS: The delay in posting this response was due to an unknown problem, trying to log onto this site.
"architects have the reputation of being prima donas"
The least responsive architect I ever worked with was as meek as a mouse. But he still took weeks to answer a simple query.
I know that I respond to a request for retainage by raising the price to cover the cost and the trouble of waiting to be fully paid. If the customer wants to pay for this, who am I to tell him not to.
As a GC the retainage is my responsibility and my subcontractors are paid in full as they complete their work. If there is a screw up, they are expected to return and fix it. They do this as quickly as possible or we cannot continue to do business. This is rarely a problem and never with our regular subs.
Maybe designers should have some of their fee withheld, but this is not the normal practice. Any change will (and should) cost the customer money. Is this something people would want to pay for?
Could you say to a customer, " I am going to charge you 20% more than my normal fee, but, in exchange for that, you get to hold one-third of this fee until the job is completed and inspected. During this time I will make timely corrections or clarifications to the plan. Any additional work will be an additional fee based on my hourly rate and associated expenses."?
Your examples are of doing business in an environment where the GC and subs have a continuous co-dependent relationship. When that's the case, the GC has built-in leverage so no money need be held back, in order to get prompt service if a problem arises.
In most cases, building custom homes in a large metropolitan area, it's more likely that the different tradesmen will work together once or twice in a lifetime. No one is dependent on any other party nor is one's reputation likely to suffer much if he messes up on one job. That's true for everyone, including the architect.
I've never seen a set of prints for a custom house that didn't have errors which needed correcting before work could proceed. Lots of errors, lots of corrections and revisions.
HVC,
What kind of errors do you typically find in the plans? I'm not challenging you on this, because I completely believe you; I'm just wondering what the typical errors are.
What kind of errors do you typically find in the plans? I'm not challenging you on this, because I completely believe you; I'm just wondering what the typical errors are.
OK, here's a few.
1. Window and door openings.
a. The sizes are taken off of manufacturer's catalogs where there are several measurements for each dimension. One is the rough opening, a second is the finished size, a third is the glass size, etc. Apparently it's easy for someone to get confused about which size is required on which drawing. I learned to double check sizes of rough openings by finding copies of the same catalogs.
b. Placement of doors. I've often seen several door openings drawn in close proximity to each other, so close that there isn't enough room for the required framing members. In that case, either the door size has to be made smaller or the entire intersection has to be resized. The carpenter can figure it out and do it but it's not according to the print so....if someone doesn't like his decision, he'll be doing it over, for no additional charge.
That's just a couple of things that are easy to visualize and appreciate.
Here's a specific, typical mistake. I built a couple of nice chalets for an architect/ G.C. at Hemlock Farms in the Poconos, some years ago. In figuring the usable space under the second floor's 12/12 roof, he forgot to include the height of the floor and the lost height of the exposed rafters. That amounted to twelve and a half inches.
That made it necessary to move the toilet away from the outside wall, in order to gain headroom. In turn the bathroom wall had to be moved out the same 12 inches. That made it necessary to move the second floor entry door over as well, which meant that there wasn't room for the landing at the top of the stairs. That meant that the entire stair design had to be altered, keeping the upstairs landing and adding a second landing midway in the downstairs corner.
I didn't pick up that mistake until I was laying out the interior wall plates for the upstairs rooms. Standing in the bathroom space, it became obvious that the headroom wasn't going to work for any adult male, trying to pee in the toilet. Not unless he could do so with his head resting on his right shoulder, or pee sitting down. ;-)
Every custom home I've ever worked on has gone through an evolution of changes due to many factors. In the old days a lot of those changes could be made by hashing it out on site between the G.C. and the sub, no new drawings needed. Now it's more involved because of liability concerns and what they require.
Thanks for that additional info, HVC.
Window and door sizing mistakes are real rookie moves! ;) Unfortunately, I know they're common, and unfortunately, as the builder, you don't always get to choose the architect with whom you're working. Most of the time, I imagine it's the homeowner coming to you (the builder) after the architect has been selected and the plans are well underway.
That mistake of forgetting to allow for the depth of the floor assembly was a big one. I guess that's why it's important to make sectional drawings --- had that been done, the error most likely would have been caught.
What's the worst mistake you've seen in your experience?
I haven't read this entire thread, so apologies in advance if you've already covered this: do you find plenty of architects who are willing to have part of their design fee held back until construction reaches a specified point? Is it typically about a third (as I think you have suggested)?
What's the worst mistake you've seen in your experience?
They all have consequences. The story about the custom chalet is exemplary of how far reaching a simple error can be. If you'd like to read some stories about major screw ups, you can probably find a web site dedicated to that purpose.
I haven't read this entire thread, so apologies in advance if you've already covered this: do you find plenty of architects who are willing to have part of their design fee held back until construction reaches a specified point? Is it typically about a third (as I think you have suggested)?
I have seldom been in a position to even propose that idea, mainly because my participation in the project usually comes after the design phase is completed. I suggest that you read the last fifty posts in this thread, to get an idea of how welcome this concept is by designers.
I suggest that you read the last fifty posts in this thread, to get an idea of how welcome this concept is by designers.
Oh, I've seen how well the idea was received by the designers at the board here. ;)
Regarding holding back part of the design fee, I understand that you've seldom been in a position to even propose the idea based on the timing of things.
Have you ever been involved in a project where a significant portion (say 25% or more) of the design fee has been withheld until after construction was underway?
Have you ever been involved in a project where a significant portion (say 25% or more) of the design fee has been withheld until after construction was underway?
Yes. When I proposed to design and build a new home for a neighbor he asked how he could be certain that my plans would pass inspection. I suggested that he hold one third of my design fee until he got his certificate of occupancy. That was not a burden to me because that money represented my profit, not basic income.
Yes. When I proposed to design and build a new home for a neighbor he asked how he could be certain that my plans would pass inspection.
OK -- has any designer besides yourself been amenable to delaying final payment? :)
Just to be clear, I don't think that what you're proposing is an unthinkable idea. I'm just trying to find out if any other designers are willing to play by those rules.
I don't contract with other designers/architects. The homeowner is the person who contracts with the architect. In most cases, he does so way in advance of the subcontractors' arrival on the job so, as a sub, my suggestions are always offered to the HO as a remedy to problems encountered.
That's been my aim here, to assist Katherine and other potential clients of architects, in coming to terms which give them reasonable assurance that their architects will respond to problems on the job in a timely manner.
Cloud,The situation: There are some contractors who do not correct mistakes in a timely manner after they've been paid. There are some who do not even complete the project, even though they've been paid for it.The problem: How to identify those types before paying them?The solution: Hold back 10% of all payments to all contractors. Except those you really want who refuse this.This procedure is reccommended by nearly consumer protection agencies and all HO "how to deal with a Contractor" brochures, columnists, and commentators.Nobody argues against it, not even those contractores who refuse to work that way, because everybody recognises the problem and nobody can come up with a better solution..
.
.The other situation: There are some Architect/Designers who do not correct mistakes in a timely manner after they've been paid. There are some who do not even monitor the project, as contracted for, even though they've been paid for it.The problem: How to identify those types before paying them?Your solution, if not to hold back 10% from all Architects/Designers until their work is completed?SamT
Were I on site, what could I contribute
Kathleen: As a recent customer of a contractor building a large addition on my house, my contributions were essential: I was able to make decisions on dozens of small matters that inevitably come up. Some seemed small-"Where do you want this switch?" some were large- "We've got a little problem with headroom here, but we've figured out a solution. What do you think?" Often, something looks fine on the drawings, but once framed it just isn't right. Moving a window is cheap or expensive, depending on when in the process you need to move it.
I have a bit of experience in building, but my only contribution to the actual construction was to bring stuff to the dump. After the work was done, I did get to buy more tools and build the cabinets. Of course, your primary job as customer is to pay all invoices promptly.
I stongly recommend you work with your contractor to set up some sort of frequent e-mail exchange of photos and correspondence and also arrange several visits to the site during the process. I also suggest you hire an architect or an experienced (perhaps retired?) builder to make site visits and report to you. It has nothing to do with trusting your contractor, but building a house results in dozens of decisions that you, not just the contractor, should make and some can't be anticipated.
Have fun with the project and good luck.
Steve
I stongly recommend you work with your contractor to set up some sort of frequent e-mail exchange of photos and correspondence and also arrange several visits to the site during the process. I also suggest you hire an architect or an experienced (perhaps retired?) builder to make site visits and report to you. It has nothing to do with trusting your contractor, but building a house results in dozens of decisions that you, not just the contractor, should make and some can't be anticipated.
Part of what impressed me about our builder right off the bat was his volunteering (before I asked) what he had found was important in making a long-distance project work--basically everything you stated above--which also happened to fit with what I've experienced working as a remote employee.
Kathleen
>I'm also capable of holding the dumb end of a tape measure, running errands, ferrying tools from Point A to Point B, and other basic grunt/gofer work. Not that these require a great deal of skill or time, but they need to be done.>And if my builder likes my work and my attitude, maybe he'd let me try some other simple tasks.>Being the customer "gets my foot in the door", but beyond that, I would much prefer that any work I do meet my builder's expectationssmslaw's description was right on target. The thing I repeatedly hear from design clients, and experienced first-hand myself when I built my house, is their shock at the number of decisions that have to be made, and often with little advance notice. It overwhelmed them at times. That should be your focus. Being a good client is the best way you help to effect a good result, and being a good client means making decisions when they need to be made and having resources available (mostly money) when they're needed.I have a different perspective than you do on things like holding the dumb end of a tape and "simple tasks". A builder might feel obliged to let you help, but shouldn't be put in that spot. If you hold the tape wrong (inside of tab vs outside) the cut will be wrong. If you're moving slower than he moves, his rhythm will be off. If he's needing to explain where to go and what's next, he's working slower than he wants to. But unlike with employees, he can't chew you out because you're the check-writer. It's not an arrangement where he can work in the way he's used to. Add to that that he'll be constantly worried about workplace accidents and liability...On the other hand, there are probably ways to contribute that won't put the contractor in an awkward spot. Trash removal is always welcome. Sweeping. Lunch. Anything that doesn't involve his tools or employees or materials. Beyond that, one needs to balance their desire to assist against the likelihood that the builder will benefit from assistance or would prefer not but acquiesce solely because of who holds the checkbook.
Our best experience with homeowner help, besides the the all-important decision making and check writing, has been site cleanup. Absolutely love it and the guys will return in spades for the homeowner. Of course refreshments get major points. We even had one homeowner who made us sit down for a home-cooked lunch each day. Another who made cocktails at the end of each workday!
Excellent contribution!Thoughts from outside this industry with principles that pertain to all of us are very helpful.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!