Hi – I’ve been reading posts for a while – great info, much appreciated.
I built my own house 7 years ago, and was permitted by the County to do my own plumbing work under a “homeowners plumbing license”, after taking a plumbing test etc.
We sold the house last year and are preparing to do it again – this time with lots more experience!
I was at the permits office today and they refused me the permit or license since it was a “one time basis” – the girl told me it was so I wouldn’t circumvent the rules and plumb my own houses for sale. I pointed out it was a full 7 years ago, and I was in no way intending to abuse the system. She didn’t budge.
I called later to clarify and see if anything could be done, and the conversation became slightly intense, though cordial. I have since written a letter outlining my position as intending to follow the rules etc… My main point being that the “one time basis” clause should have some statute of limitation somehow. They are reviewing my case Monday.
Any thoughts or suggestions on this? I am very frustrated at being capable of doing my own quality work, but not permitted by rigid regulation. Is this the case in your neck of the woods?
BTW I am in Western MD
Replies
Not the case here in Oregon. Homeowners can do their own plumbing and electrical, but still have to get permits and inspections. No "one-time only" stuff here. Can't do it for a rental or anything. Has to be owner occupied. If you were coming in every three months or something, it might be a different story.
Politely (but firmly) ask to see the city or state code that allowed you to do the work last time and see if there are any stipulations or limitations. If they are quoting code to you, they should be able to produce it. Just my two cents.
I've never seen 7 years for that. In Nevada, you can "owner-build" one house every two years. That keeps you from "owner-building" houses for a living without getting licensed and providing warranties.
7 years seems a bit extreme, but whatta ya gonna do?
Bob
Brian,
Out here in OR, a homeowner can do their own electrical or plumbing work as long as the house is intended as a permanent residence and you do not intend to move for at least 1 yr. My guess is that this is intended to deter 'homeowners' from building spec houses.
Yes, that is most common. One or two years.And this is the first time that I have heard of taking a plumbing test, but I have heard of it a few time for electrical.Now some places have don't allow for ANY WORK by owners. And basically that all that does is lead to a bunch of un permitted work.
Edited 3/4/2005 5:10 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
Now I don't know what county you are in.
but I did some googling found this one for Hardford CO.
http://www.co.ha.md.us/council/bills/01-005.pdf
"B. A plumbing permit required by the administrative authority may be issued to a bonafide owner of a single-family dwelling occupied exclusively by the owner to do any plumbing work regulated by this Code on the dwelling, on condition that such work is done in compliance with this Code. The owner must be qualified by the administrative authority before a permit may be issued."
This is in the "adoption laws". Check on them in your county.
The way codes typically work is that nation codes and the local community will addopt a specific version of a spefic code and them add local modifiiecations.
Its Washington County - we are growing like crazy here - lots of building - and I can't help but feel like the building permit process seems a lot "tighter" than last time I did this. Many more hoops to jump through...
I agree on the 7 year comment - this is no spec house.
When I hear about other areas, I'm grateful I am permitted to build at all!
I'll be waiting on the results of the Monday meeting before I get all worked up. There is one interesting note - I asked if my wife could come take the plumbing test instead, and they seemed to think this would be fine...(she doesn't agree) where's the sense in that?
Now what will I do with all these useless plumbing tools...
Or get your wife to pull the one-time permit. Her name's not on the other house, is it? Here in LA, it's two years between owner-builder houses, to prevent license evasion.
-- J.S.
I could not find the adoption code.But here is what they have on their web site.http://www.washco-md.net/permits/faqs.shtm"# Can a homeowner do their own plumbing work?Washington County is permitted to grant a plumbing permit to those homeowners qualified to perform the work on their own residence. Homeowners requesting to perform their own hands-on plumbing work shall take a written or oral examination of basic plumbing skills, given by the Department of Permits & Inspections on a one time basis only. After receiving a score of 70% or greater, the homeowner will be permitted to obtain a plumbing permit to perform their own hand-on plumbing work within the confines of their own dwelling, up to 3 feet (915 mm) from the foundation wall on the building drain. The homeowner can perform plumbing work only if it is their place of residence. Homeowners making application must sign a release agreement stating that they intend to personally occupy the dwelling, that the home is not for sale, rent or commercial use, and that the home is not being built or remodeled for the purpose of offering it for sale, rent or commercial use. A valid drivers license or photo identification shall be presented at the time of examination."http://www.washco-md.net/permits/process.shtm" Homeowners may complete the plumbing installation up to 3 ft. outside the foundation wall providing they own the property, will be occupying the dwelling and pass the “Homeowner’s Plumbing Exam”. The exam can be taken at the Department of Permits and Inspections between the hours of 7:30 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. Applicant shall contact the office prior to taking the exam in order to schedule testing accommodations."Nothing about once in a lifetime.
I hope the code officials are as understanding - we'll find out soon! The permit technician was definitely leaning toward the once in a lifetime interpretation.
Personally, I think everyone one should be permitted to do their own (inspected and up to code) plumbing. I could see gas lines as an exemption.
I must have a strange sense of humour toniight. That one gets me going too. Around here, a HO can blow himself up - I mean can do his own gas line, but if I so much as touch it commercially with no license...boom on me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I read that to mean that a homeowner only need take the exam once. From then... they can obtain a permit to do plumbing on their own residence without taking the exam.
Brian... I would suggest you can get a copy of the actual ordinance. I cannot imagine that you can only obtain a permit once in a lifetime. What if you had to do additional work on the same residence?
Makes no sense, and sounds like someone in the permits section needs to review the actual code. Too easy to just say "no"... typical govt BS.
That FAQ is a bit vague, to be sure. The way I read it, you only get one chance to take the exam, and you can't ever sell or rent the house once you do the work on it.
It can also be interpreted as, you only have to take the exam once, and as long as you will be living in the house (for an undetermined period of time) doing your own plumbing is OK.
You certainly wouldn't expect them to say that you have to retake the exam every time you want to do your own plumbing, which makes sense - even a professional engineer (like me) only has to take and pass the engineering exam once in a lifetime. That's what I think they mean by "one time only".
Couple ways around this - get your wife to take it, or become a licensed plumber, or hope they see it your way. There really should be a statute of limitations. Even two or three years is enough - you won't make any money building homes that way and plumbing them yourself.
you dont have to take an exam here, but they will check it twice. I got caught on a 1 1/2 inch fitting on the kitchern sink disposal.. 2+3=7
Edited 12/24/2005 3:58 pm by brownbagg
This is almost humorous, except that I feel your frustration.
I have fought city hall before over something that was supposedly in the codes. I knew different, having a copy and an ability to read and understand. When the book was opened, the bluff fell by the wayside.
I suggest that you tactfully find a copy of the regulations to read or get them to show you. This can get touchy, because if they are right, and it is not just an unwritten policy, but truely codified, you stand in the position of calling them liars, which cannot help you very much.
on the other side of this. if they are right, and the rule does exist in writing, then you want to look again at your post here. You say, "my position as intending to follow the rules etc..." while arguing for a way to escape one of the rules.
;)
So carefully figure out whether you have a bonafide complaint or not. Persoanally, I'd let you go ahead.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Do a search of your state plumbing board on the net and call the board of directors. The chairman or the chief state plumbing inspector.
Another way is to grace the little lady with your presence and ask to see state code on her decision. Is she the chief building inspector ? Usually that person is the boss over her. Make someone show it to you in black and white , period. You have full right to question calls , but if you are prooved wrong obey the codes.
Tim Mooney
Good suggestion, but he need to tread softly with the state.From what I could gather this is mostly local authority, but it is not real clear.The county website makes it clear that they do issue plumbing and electrical licenses and list all of the requirments and the boards.There might have been a state mechanicla license.
If the county or city has not written an ordinance, the state supercedes. A city has the power to be more strinent. And I guess a county could be as well. First I would want to know state regulations and then what local codes they have adopted. The whole deal shouldnt take any more than an hour. But he shouldnt take her answer with out proof.
Tim Mooney
But he shouldnt take her answer with out proof.
Absolutely. With our local bureaucrats I've 3 times found that they weren't following their own rules.
Once was the way they assess. Saved me a lot of money when I read the rules and called them on it. Now only those who educate themselves benefit.
Heard a new one last week. Unless there's a valid building permit in force, no home is allowed to have any construction material on the property. Which puts pretty much all homes without a permit in violation. Who doesn't have a spare brick or block sitting around? Have yet to check into it, but a friend got into serious trouble for storing material, this in a rural part of the county. They'd have a field day here.
Time to lock the gate.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Unless there's a valid building permit in force, no home is allowed to have any construction material on the property."
That sucks. On the plus side, though, it gives them a neat excuse to talk to the guy that owns the property. He might just be that guy that ripped off all your building materials from the jobsite over the weekend and has them stored next to his house...
Well, the plumbing board met, and here is the conclusion of the matter...
"However, at this time it was the Boards decision to uphold the Washington County Plumbing Ordinance in whereas it states that the exemption to complete your own plumbing work for your own dwelling is an exemption on a one-time basis only."
So I guess the wife will be taking the exam...and I'll plumb the place anyway.
It seems wrong to me, and silly, and so on, but not worth fighting the system.
I don't have the 3500 hours experience to get a real plumbing license, and the last time I called a "real" plumber, it took 21! days before he returned the call. I wonder why they are so busy?
OK done whining - thanks for listening.
-Brian
What a bunch-o-crap!
"It seems wrong to me, and silly, and so on, but not worth fighting the system. "
The only way the system changes is if the effected parties change it through pressure placed directly on the source of the problem.
I certainly respect your choice not to fight the system... but might I suggest a letter to the elected representatives to make them aware of how this is being regulated? I am almost 100% positive that this is not the original intent of the regulation... and if it is... I would highly suggest active support of different elected representatives.
Hi Brian,
I just read your thread, so I'm jumping in here a little late.
My wife and I are in the process of building our own house in Howard County, MD. I spent the entire summer last year fighting for my building permit. The biggest issue was stormwater management.
The county wanted me to collect all the water runoff, via gutters and swales, and direct that runoff to a holding pond or a HUGE gravel level spreader. It was a nightmare. I tried to point to neighboring houses that had no erosion or runoff problems. Didn't matter. I ended up researching the EPA regulations until I knew far more about it than the county folks did. We finally struck a compromise, but it literally took three months of effort to make it happen. By the time I had permit in hand, it was September.
As far as homeowner plumbing, not a chance!! All electrical, plumbing and HVAC work has to be performed by a Master. The odd thing was that they had no problem with me adding circuits to my townhouse basement. The unofficial explanation I got was that they know that most people don't pull permits to finish off their basement. The county would rather let the homeowner do the work and get it inspected. I reminded the electrical inspector that he complimented my work in my townhouse. It didn't matter. Electrical in the house has to be done by a Master Electrician. End of story.
Sorry you had such a hassle, especially one that made so little sense. But it could be worse; you could live in Howard County!!
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I feel your frustration. If you get no satisfaction from your letter maybe have your wife (you did say "we" built our house) sign up for the next "one-time-only" permit.
I do see what the authorities are trying to prevent, but it does seem a bit silly since seven years have gone by.
Good luck.
get your wife to go to the office and pull ther permit in her name...
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
The end of the story...
I plumbed the place, planning to have my wife pull the permit.
She was nervous about the exam, etc...
I found a friend of a friend (plumber) to pull the permit, paid him $100.
He wanted to look it over and make sure it was good. I added a vent and changed some t's to y's. He commented I did a better job than some plumbers. (all I did was read a book and use some common sense, but I'll take a compliment)
The inspector passed it - problem solved.
Thanks for the update, but beware of such honest posts.
Not to alarm you on Christmas Eve, but at least one other person I know on this board posted similar occurence related to codes only to be visited by by the building dept with a fine and limitations as some snitch reading here passed on the info for some pidlly reward the build dept had. Since your 'friend of a friend' did inspect your work, you can claim to have been his apprentice if some evil little conniving sob snitch squeals.
More than a few of us wonder who the perp. was in the previous case, but was in a different state. .
Merry Christmas.