Ok. gents here’s my dillema:
My M+F in law retired to thei original homeland, Scotland, 9 years ago after living in the states for 15 yrs. In the last year, they’ve decided to move back here to be closer to kids and grandkids. This is fine; we all get along super. I’ve been a carpenter/ contractor starting 21 years ago, got a job as a firefighter 3 yrs ago, still build on the side.
still with me?
Initially, in laws wanted me to custom build for them, (would have been GREAT really nice folks, w/ $) couldn’t find a lot that worked in area they wanted to be in. Realtor gets them hooked on a 55 & over condo dev. w/ pool etc. in planning stages. They go for it ( $600,000+). No offence taken by me, I have every confidence that they would rather have had me build for them, always been very complimentary of my work, etc.My problem is this: They have asked me to “keep an eye ” on the project as it proceeds, and keep them updated re: quality etc.
This place is a f@!$#@!ing train wreck. I framed for a long, long time, and I’ve never seen trash work like this. I’m not really surprised, because I’ve seen condo projects b4, but it literally makes me sick to my stomach to see this crooked, out of plumb, no corner nailer having, out of level truss layout, mess. This is also with the knowledge that they were charged $4,300 for a minor layout change, and $7,000 because my f in law wanted a concrete floor in the crawlspace of his unit,( 2,200 sq ft.), which was bullfloated and NEVER TROWELED.Do the math.
So the question is , since I know that they’re commited to the place , and have quite a bit of $ into it, and won’t back out at this point; How honest should I be?They’re 3,000 miles away, anything I’ve said that is critical up till now is met w/ mild panic.I’m just afraid that if I make like everything is ok, it will reflect on me in the end. I know we’ve all been in this spot before, the buddy who buys the house, THEN says come over and tell me what you think.(Thought” I think you should have called me before you bought it,pal.”)(Say “It looks great!”) This one is a little different. any input appreciated.
Bing
Replies
I'd be honest a straight up on that one. He asked you to keep an eye out for things like that. What he does or doesn't do about it after being informed is no pain for you then.
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My opinion? You HAVE to get out of this one. No if's and's or but's. Tell them you're too busy, or unable to be objective, or whatever, and hire someone (a contractor or home inspector) - out of your own pocket - to inspect and report to them. It will be money well spent.
I'm with Piffin on this one...honesty is the best policy.
HOW you deliver the information to the relatives, can help "soften the blow". You don't seem to be a hired project manager so it is not like they're going to fire you! So since you've been asked to keep an eye on it for them - the familial obligation of telling them what you see happening means you need to tell them what you see happening.
You could open by making general statement that the "quality of the work being done doesn't my standards..." and only go into specifics if you think they'll understand what you're talking about (will they? I dunno).
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
ditto- be honest, and PDQ / ASAP.
ditto- the technique mizshredder suggested- "the quality does not hold to my standards", but my hands are tied to do anything to correct it, etc.
the ILs asked you to 'keep an eye on it" probably assuming it would progress better than it apparently is doing. you will be fulfilling your promise and helping them out by giving them a heads-up. i'm sure they were aware when they agreed to the condo that you would not be able to interject yourself into a contractor position.
just let them know how you feel as soon as possible so they can decide for themselves what action to take next.
Thanks guys
I suppose I already knew the answer to this but.... not looking forward to the conversation. Piffin-right as usual have to tell like it is, then the ball will be in their court and my conscience will be clear. They wouldn't buy the " Too busy " thing (they know I'm too nosy to NOT go check the place out. The const co. (big outfit) won't let anyone down to the site anyhow. ( I sneak in on Sundays).As far as what my f in law would understand; he's a mechanical engineer, so not a dope. I think the key , as said, is how I tell him. So I'll go along w/ the "Not to my standards" route and try to go easy on the "Holy crap!!! What a friggin mess those guys are making"It's tough tho, cause there are things that I see that they may never notice, and if I tell them, (him esp. ) then it will drive them (unnecessarily)crazy.
I had a pal who had a big tile shower put in, had me look at it after it was all done.INSISTED that I tell him what I REALLY thought. Tile guy had started w/ a full 12" tile from left side, to a 3/4" cut on right side. Unfortunately the wall must have been out, so it went from 3/4" on the bottom to about 1-3/4 on the top. I explained that ( I thought anyway ) he should have started his layout from the center, and that if he had, the tile on the left would have been 6-3'8" all the way up, and the one on the right would go from 6-3/8" to 7-3/8" on top, but that wouldn't have been as noticeable. He's standing there looking at his tapered tile saying " I can't believe never noticed that!" Drove him nuts after that till he actually had the tile done over.(don't really feel THAT guilty for that, he was a hacker)
since then I try to be more subtle.................Thanks guys
Bing
Good luck!!!DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
They wouldn't buy the " Too busy " thing
What I meant was that you are too busy to get involved in taking pictures, writing reports, and getting in the middle of a potentially emotionally-draining litigation, which is where it sounded to me like this is headed, according to your description. But if that's the sort of thing you're too nosy NOT to do, then go for it. By no means would I encourage dishonesty, my thought was that someone not related would be in a better position to deal objectively with the firestorm about to be unleashed. Best wishes for a quick resolution on this one!
You should be honst with them, obviously they trust your opinion so you should give it to them. Good or bad. I actually had a similer situation with a brand new brother in law .I was actually on my honeymoon in Tenn when we decided to go see him and his to be built house. He had some problems with the builder and the lot. I also saw some this guys work and it was horrible. I told my brother in law what I thought and he found a way out of the deal. Now he is having a house built by someone who has a good rep. It just so happens that he got into the 1 phase of this new development the 11th person to sign a deal and he is going to make a killing on this house. Depending on the area your in laws are in mabe they could flip the place for some profit. And have something really nice built by you. Orell the builder you want this crap fixed. Dont forget to take pictures they are worth 1000 words to a judge (they like polaroids you can't edit them on your pc)
Tell them what you see and what you think - that's what they asked for. Up to them what they want to do about it. Take digital pics of the shoddy work, for later reference should there be warranty claims.
Out of square and slightly out of plumb can be compensated for by the finish guys. I would expect the finish to look as good as the finish in the 'demonstrator' suite. Presumably the purchase contract says something about the levels of finish....or does it?
How sound is the framing, structurally speaking?
The plumbing, electricals and HVAC are up to snuff?
How good is the detailing with respect to damp, storm, and rain proofing?
Are they installing the windows, doors, fixtures, trim levels that are specified in the contract?
Unfortunately, the " model " was started 1 week before the in-laws was.So....nothing to look at in terms of quality. Five-3 unit buildings in progress ( model being one of them) None further than framed, one roof tight, 2 w/ rough plumbing, 1 just walls and housewrap.It looks like there's one crew that skips around so it looks like there is more progress. In-laws trusses set ( badly; hips w/ really bad "out of plane" issues)No roof sheathing,no rough plumbing or elec.The model was three quarters sided w/ white cedar shingles before the roof trusses arrived on site.Think there's a little moisture behind that siding? I know... the whole issue of there being no model was a bone of contention w/ me when this all started, but...they have a slick sales dept, I'll give 'em that. Sold them the whole "swimmin pool, excercise paths, hairdresser on site ball of BS.Oh well...........When it's all over they may be able to flip it, it is phase one in a four phase proj. so......maybe by phase four their framers will know what the f@#! they're doing
I Can't wait to see the finish work...........
"They are 3000 miles away"
Which is why they hired /trusted you.
Be professional. Write a report. Here's an opportunity to sharpen your professional writing skills.
As specific as you can. Back it up with pic's. Put yourself in their position. They want clear, professional assessments of what their money is buying. If it's outta square, how much? Crappy framing? By what standards. Give them something tangable THEY can convey to the builder in a fair, problem solving manner.
What can you do that will help address the defects and alieviate your in-laws fears?
I know it's tough to do... but you have to treat this as if it is not a relative you are speaking with. What would you do if it were a paying customer that asked you "keep an eye" on a project for them?
The only real difference is that because they are relatives... you aren't getting paid (or it could be argued that you are getting paid MUCH more than your billing rate... whichever is applicable, I guess).!
I agree with the previous message about being "a professional". Give specifics and either recommend fixes... point out what needs to be corrected... or give specifics on what needs to be torn down and done correctly.
If you are a professional about it... your in-laws will be appreciative... the builder will have adequate ability to correct issues... and you will sleep better (and in the same bed you are used to!).
The "freak out thing"? can you imagine how you would think if you were 3k miles away and had something being built for you that cost $600K? I know I would freak out at least once a day! You can set their mind at ease, actually, by standing in for them in their absence. If I were buying something of this type... I would be on-site quite frequently. What you are doing is, in essence, the same.... and your critique will actually put them more at ease, than causing heartache.
(and BTW... you should make arrangements for the builder to afford you the same courtesies they would for your in-laws, if they were there. Your open presence.. instead of the current "stealth" presense... would be much more constructive.
Send a friend to look at it for them. Someone who knows the business as well as you. Tell your in-laws you stand behind this guys judgement.
Then watch the fight from the side lines
I think you have to distance yourself from the way you know it should be done and look like. I don't think there is a carpenter alive that can't find fault with anothers work or would have done some part differently. The important issue is whether the place is structurally sound and up to code, not how well the miters fit on the trim or how smooth the concrete is in the basement. I'd simply take the code and structural analysis to them and explain that you have high workmanship standards that most likely won't be met. If your father in law wanted a concrete floor, it was his obligation to specify or ask about the level of finish. This should have been done before the work order or contract was signed. He's the engineer and the customer. You have gotten yourself into a losing position. You have no power over what gets done or how it's accomplished. All you can do is Monday morning quarterback the situation. You can't even ask the contractor a question or answer one. On many projects like this, the foreman on the job can't even ask the architect a question. There is a chain of command and they are very strict about following protocal. In essence, you are trespassing when you enter the property.
I'd make it clear to your FIL that you cannot enter the property legally, that you will relate to him the progress you can see from the road and stay out of it otherwise. Once they have taken occupancy, they can deal with any issues through the correct channels. There's nothing you or they can do about your perception of sloppy work so keep it to yourself. There is nothing to be gained by getting them anxious about the condo at this point. Let them be the judge when they get there.
Wow, tough situation. Somehow you have to be honest, to maintain your integrity, and yet be impartial and not alarmist. The comment about hiring an independent inspector seems like a great idea.
Also I wonder, if the work really could be considered "below acceptable standards", if there is a way for them to get out of their contract. It might be a good idea to call an attorney. If the builder is not providing the quality for which they are charging, I'd think your inlaws would want to bail out. A good attorney could help suggest ways to do that.
Pictures are a great idea!! Take lots to document the shoddiness. It could save your butt, or your in-laws'.
About 20 years ago my father (as the finished facility engineer) oversaw the construction of a large - like a million cubic feet - frozen food locker, with tilt up concrete walls, with a slab and pilings driven into the ground. He's an amateur photog so took lots of photos of the building going up.
A year later the walls literally started falling down due to improper piling installation. This was confirmed by independent tests. It became a really expensive nightmare. It went to court and the photos turned out to be a key part of the evidence. My father went to the hospital with what was thought to be a heart attack but turned out to be a major stress attack during the hearings, since he took the aspersions cast by the other attorney personally.
So my advice would be - take lots of pictures, and don't let yourself get stressed out about it. The developers are likely to come out with guns blazing at some point so just be prepared for that and don't take it personally.
Just an update/bump.
After driving down every other Sun. since last post, ( and deciding to leave my standards at the door ) I met one of the sales staff showing the unit next door a couple Sundays ago on site. She was very polite, asked how my in-laws were, etc. The following day, my in laws receive an e-mail to remind them that visitors must have an escort to the site. Doesn't come as a great surprise in this day and age of liability. The folks have been approved for visa, and leave 10/24 for the states (QM II). The part that slays me is, this building has been "being framed for +- 3 mos., has no rough elec, no rough plumbing, Insulation, siding. The sales staff is still sticking to a November 10 move in. Should be an interesting month. I had to laugh out loud the other day, when the same member of the sales crew told my MIL that there were ( bear in mind this is a 5 building dev. at this point, w/ 3 units per Bldg) AT LEAST 500 men on site working to meet the deadlines. Also told me that they couldn't get anyone to wire units because " All the electricians have gone to New Orleans, you know." Hmmmmmmmm
Anyhow, thought I'd update.
Bing
Wow, that kind of bull deserves a direct confrontation. There must be a good run on life jackets for all those electricians.
Agreed, this does not add up at all. Do they have a provision to bail out if the contractor/seller doesn't meet their schedule. Ouch.Bruce
Be Honest about what you see and do it NOW!!.
Haven't read all the reonces yet... But am building a house for a guy right now who wants EVERYTHING you can imagine. I quoted $3 a square foot for a "rat slab" in the crawlspace... I'm intending that my concrete guys fully finish it, but that it will probably be only 2.5" ot 3" thick.
My beef isn't w/ the thickness ( I don't have any way of knowing how thick it is anyway ) but with the fact that they jacked him for $7,000 for 2200 sq ft. That's 3.18 per sq ft. My cement finisher ( who gets around $45 per cubic yd. labor ) would be at around $4,800 with concrete.(And that's 5" thick figuring conc @ 100 per yd - 33yds) That price is for a finish like glass, which I'm not saying they need, but geez, at least let some helper who wants to learn how to finish make a couple of passes with a trowel! It's rough as shiite! My point being that if they're going to arse rape him on the price, at least make it look decent.
Anyhow.....I don't agree w/ most of what I've seen at this development, so it's really no surprise. As of this morning, siding almost done, rough plumbing, hvac, rough electric finished no insulation etc. They told my in laws yesterday they're still figuring on 11/7 for completion I'll be impressed ( or more likely DEpressed ) if they make it,...............
first - hope you're enjoying "the job" regarding the construction situation - best defense is a good offense - and "are any of these people/workers/contractors etc. your friends" ? somebody is paying them some pretty good coin to do the work properly, so hold them to it - if they're "offended", well, maybe they should be doing it "right" rather than having to do it again - go with the pictures with good documentation and make friends with the guys who are the local AHJs -this the reason I still do a lot on stuff myself - can't see paying somebody to do a level of work that I wouldn't do - sometimes get other guys on the job to do the work since we all seem to have a similar level of concern for doing things "right"hope it works out - stay safe
Any update on this saga?
Actually, in laws arrived at my house yesterday.
Went to condo today (I couldn't get away) and from what my wife has said, there's no great surprises. The model is now complete, and my wife says SHE can see alot of stuff( this is the curse of being married to me) that looks nasty; open miters, walls bowed/out of level, gaps at ends of oak floor, etc. Her words "I can only imagine what YOU"LL see when you go down there". Supposedly, the sales people have 3 closings at the end of this week, but I can't believe that the ahj will issue co's for the units, due to the fact that with open trenches and whatnot, the road in is barely passable. Could be possible though, I guess, since the town is never going to take over these "roads"; they are part of the condo dev. so in effect, it's just a piss-poor driveway technically.Nothing against code there. The other one I'm scratching my head over is that there's a locked gate at the entrance, so from a fire service standpoint, I've got to think they'll have to start leaving that open. There IS a line in the contract about there being the possibility of some clean up work that may need to be done after the co is obtained, and as we all know, the inspections could all be done and the co given without tile, paint and a lot of other stuff.
They're STILL telling them (today) 11/15 for a completion date, and as of today; plastered, no primer or paint, no doors,no base, no tile, no oak,no kitchen cabs,no garage door, no front door, a couple windows and some siding, no boiler, air handler or hw tank, no switches, plugs etc, etc........................
It's all a bummer, and it kills me to see it, but aside from the time frame, they seem happy so.....not much more I can do at this point. If anything, I'll make it worse by pointing stuff out that they'll never see. I will, however, tell the truth if asked about anything specific. That's where I draw the line.
To firedude; yes, enjoying the job (what's not to like?) as I hope you are. Don't really know a soul working on this train wreck, or the ahj's. I do most of my const. work in the Rehoboth area, am on the job in Warwick, and condo is in Portsmouth, so.......no real connections. (although at one point I was so pissed I was thinking about having a close friend from the St. fire marshals office take a visit there, just to ruffle some feathers :) probably not worth it though......they seem to do just enough to meet code, and the rest be damned.
Thanks for the advice, and interest from all. Will post again when more news.
Bing
didn't realize you're local - tough to enjoy the job after almost 1600 days without a contract about the state fire marshal and access - call Tom Coffey at the RI Fire safety board of appeal and review - he should be able to give you some info - or check out NFPA 1 and 101 - should be available in your station or from the fire prevention guys I'd be getting on the phone to the local AHJ (probably the building inspector) before you go over and see if you can get him(her?) to go over to the condo with you - lot more concern about things since the Station fire - seems to me there's a building official on the board of appeal and review, might be a resource for yougood luck - don't be shy about the complaints - easier to complain now and get something done then paying the lawyers after the I-Ls move in and the attitude is "it's done, what do you want me to do?"
Thought someone here might remember this thread, and might be interested in the outcome. Also have a couple questions that someone w/ legal experience could chime in on.
In-laws ended up moving in on 12/15/05; much work unfinished. Comically, (and against my heated, angry -at- times advise,) they also closed on the unit on the 10th. The company has clauses in the binder-thick contract that prohibit ANY $ being held in ecscrow for unfinished work. I couldn't believe anyone as smart financially as my F+MIL would be ok with that, but they signed.
Over a period of, I'm guessing, 4 months, little by little things get finished up. Mostly crap work, but they're happy with the inside and the layout, so I've had to make peace in my own mind that what they don't know won't hurt them. Ever seen a kitchen install where there's a pantry unit floor to ceiling, with crown that runs to the wall, but has a 2" space where they couldn't be bothered to put a filler? multiply that x 100 and you'll get an idea of what the place looks like. They ended up having a handyman from the area do a filler and some other stuff like replacing the painted knee brackets under the granite counter overhang that were made out of particle board and skewed about 10 degrees out of square.( vomit )
So.....they live there for a few months, and seems like less people on the job site. Hmmm. Six closings , six units finished ( kinda ), none of the others near completion, but still framing more units. First reg letter comes to in-laws "Intention to lien". Guess what? These douchebags that are running the show have unpaid bills over 1 mil. on the development. Plumber was never paid (around 10,000) Electrician never paid (also around 10'000) and the hits keep coming. The best part is that M+D had to pay for all extras and up-grades before the company even starts digging the hole. Well, they paid $1,800 extra for Trane ac units. Units were never installed, (so they sweltered all last summer, as the company promised month after month to finish them) AC company is owed $75,000 on the whole development. Don't think they'll get the units now.......Not quite as bad as the couple that paid $70,000 for a finished basement "upgrade" that was paid in full, closed on, moved into, and never even started. Bear in mind that while it's a 55 and over community, my in laws are 72 and 65, and most of the others that moved in are same or older. Great way to enjoy your golden years, ay?
December, 06. Original builder goes to court. Judge appoints a receiver, place is going to be auctioned. Outstanding loans and liens around $28 million dollars (property, unfinished units etc.) No guarantee from receiver that any of the original plans ( pool, stores, walking trails, etc.) will be completed, as it " will be the option of whoever buys it".Warrantee on buildings closed on? "Good luck". Says buyers can't lien anything in regards to extras paid for. Says buyers will be last to be re-imbursed for such, after big banks holding paper on land, original loans, etc.
I'd forgotten how forkin angry this all makes me till I just put it on the screen. My question to any legal eagles out there are these:
Can subs lien this property, when they(my in-laws) paid in full for their unit at the closing? My understanding of mech lien in RI was that sub can only lien person who actually hired them to do work. Deed was recorded on date of closing, with title insurance, would that pay if title was clear as of that day? Wouldn't subs have to lien before property ownership changed hands?
Sorry to turn this into such a novel......long sad story with 12 nice elderly folks getting the shaft. And the thing is, my FIL still thinks it will turn out ok. "A company will surely see the potential of the place, and complete it" Funny, there are still 20 or so buyers keeping their deposit in to hold a unit if the thing turns around! Imagine....falling on it's financial face, but not for lack of buyers....makes me phisically sick..............
Enough time...thanks for all venturing opinions
Bing
Edited 1/13/2007 12:39 pm ET by Bing187
What state is this in? Did you already say that? Anyway, in my state a lien must be placed within 90 days (I think it's 90) of the last work being performed. Liens are placed against the property - not the person/company who hired the sub.
Funny, there are still 20 or so buyers keeping their deposit in to hold a unit if the thing turns around! Imagine....falling on it's financial face, but not for lack of buyers....makes me phisically sick..............
I'd be interested in taking over that type of a project. Where is it?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Portsmouth, Rhode Island
Project overlooks the water at the entrance, although first phase condos don't. Project has approval for units that will have water view ( awesome view of Narragansett bay; I've hiked that part of the property). Originally laid out for 140 units, 3 to a building. Actually not bad looking to the uneducated- shingle style with white trim.
Also included is a 4 or 5 story building that was slated to be 1/2 assisted living, other half fully dependent nursing home care w/ alzheimers unit. Theory being........live in the condo for as long as possible, move right next door when need be. Not bad in theory. Not sure what the actual acreage is, but in my mind, 134 units worth of land,Additional 4 story building, road in place, drainage, and what has been described as a " state of the art " wastewater treatment and pumping facility complete, in this area ....$28 million is short money. Property was owned for a zillion years by the Catholic diocese (big building was some kind of treatment/hospital years ago) Acres of wetlands in amongst the condos so not all jammed together, but not so close that DEM is all over it....buffers to wetlands all ok'd
I actually thought of you when I saw the school building you're on now, as I think this project has huge potential......I neglected to mention that part of the plan (all of this already approved by the town, by the way) a retail/ office building along the street at the entrance, for convenience of the people in the dev.
About the only downside for the company taking over is that there are 3 ( I believe) buildings that have been framed but not papered or roofed that have been exposed to the weather for a full year now. But............the foundations would be ok, and I think the property value is high enough that that would be a miniscule demo fee in the grand scheme of things.
10 years ago I was dumb enough that I would have tried to do something with it myself; It does intrigue me. Just such an enormous amount of $, and a market that has gotten soft over the last year. (although the over 55 sector seems to be selling right along) It sure would be a challenge, and done right a one time significant score,$ wise.
The 6 families have retained their own lawyer to represent them, so hopefully the lien issue is a legal technicality by the subs, as opposed to them actually trying to get money out of these people that already paid in full for their condos. I feel awful for them..... I've been told that this project has resulted in at least one bankruptcy of a sub who had all his eggs in this basket,let the builder get too far out in front for material AND labor and had to close his doors. Sucks. Funny though, the Realtor collected their 6% on the 3.5 million in closings before the whole deal went south. My in laws have talked to them and " they feel just awful about it, after all the promises we made" RRRIIIGGGHHHHTTTTT.......
Anyhow, I'll post if anything new comes up, or feel free to post or e-mail me for additional info. Thanks to all for the input
Bing
Title insurance will have a coervage clause in it and it will say something like "covers xxxx (legal descripiton of property) excluding and then will have a list of exclusion. The exclusions might cover things like easements, AS RECORDED, HOA dues, etc.How I have no idea how title insurance works on a condo developement with the common areas.Without knowning much about the condos or the local lien laws I have a gut feeling that their unit's can't be liened on, specially this long after closing.But they can lien agains the common property and unfinished units.They really need to get a good real estate attorny. As a minimum spend a few hundred dollars to go over the paper work and tell them just what there rights and potential liabilities are.And depending on what they find out then they and a group of other owners might want to go together and have an attorny represent them in the bankrupcty.There might be ways out to protect them, SOMEWHAT. For example they might get their portion of the common areas spun off. While they won't have the pool, etc that could give them the basic condos free and clear of the other liabilties.Don't have any idea if it is practical or legal. Just a though.Whatever they do they don't want to just set back and wait and see what the courts do. They need someone actively representing their interest.And if there is someway that they closed without free and clear title on their units then I would have the attorny do some checking. If the title company was related with the developer or getting kickbacks.Don't know anything about developements like that.But locally there has been a lot of "mortgage/title/appraisal" fraud. And just last week two public officals where indicted..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Without rendering legal advice, etc., etc., normally title insurance protects the buyers (owners) from liens arising during construction, but not necessarily for liens arising from work done after the title policy was issued. (In this instance, it sounds like some work was done after close of escrow.) It sounds like it is definitely time for the owners to consult with a knowledgeable local construction attorney.I am never troubled by liens (although construction lenders might stop releasing draws in some situations if there is a lien). The reason I am not troubled is because many states require the lien claimant to actually file a lawsuit to perfect the lien within 90 days of the date the lien recorded, and many lien claimants don't know this and the lien lapses simply after 90 days.On the left coast, if a lien is recorded after escrow closes, many title companies will just tell the owner "wait and see" if the lien claimant files a lawsuit. Then (and frequently only then) will the title company do anything. And at least in some states, the lien just lapses after 90 days and no harm to the owner.
am never troubled by liens (although construction lenders might stop releasing draws in some situations if there is a lien). The reason I am not troubled is because many states require the lien claimant to actually file a lawsuit to perfect the lien within 90 days of the date the lien recorded, and many lien claimants don't know this and the lien lapses simply after 90 days.
More importantly, most small contractors like most of us in here, don't want to pony up a couple of grand to let the lawyers do the deal. The guys stiffing us usually have a bigger warchest and they can always create enough arguable facts that the judge will be likely to split the settlement.
A much more effective method is the thumb in the chest maneuver, up close and personal. If the sucker is a rock himself, it won't matter though.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I agree with blue-eyed-devil . It is a difficult decision for the small businessperson to choose between paying a lawyer a few thousand dollars (or more) to chase after a debt that is of uncertain collectability. Frequently it is "good money after bad" as they say. I could really go on about how problematic our current legal system is (except for the rich), but do not want to hijack the OP's thread.
bing... the RI legislature changed the lien laws last year ( don't know effective date )
but they really make it hard to perfect a lien if you haven't given a LOT of complicated notice in teh original contract
is this part of that old Kaiser aluminum site ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Howdy,
I'm not familiar with the new stuff regarding the liens in RI. I know I received a bunch of stuff regarding contracts and disclaimers that clients have to sign off on when doing jobs over $1,000. (written contracts req. etc.) I'm licensed in MA and RI, but most of my work has been in MA (although the last year has all been RI; big ranch house in Richmond and an addy in Bristol.) Sadly, my knowledge is lacking 'cause I've never really had to deal with it. I've always gotten paid (eventually sometimes )with 1 exception in 23 years. I have a feeling the lien notice is something they have to keep filing in my FIL's name to keep it current or whatever. I doubt that the subs actually think that my in laws owe them the $; to file in FIL's name is probly their only option.
Not part of the Kaiser property; that one from what I've read is way more $. Want to say those were starting at 600 large for ground floor and up to 1.5 mil for top floors. That condo project was all in that big, hollow looking building, which they converted into , I think, a 12 floor building w/ multiple units each floor.
My in-laws place is right on rt 114. If you were coming over the bridge into Newport center; left onto 114 straight into Portsmouth . If you're familiar w/ the area, theres a Home Depot and a Stop & Shop on left. about a mile or two later entrance to development is on left ( before where the NAVY water tank USED to be ; now those are some rhode island directions, complete with landmarks that aren't there anymore:) Most people remember it as it was when the church still owned it. Big building sits up on hill with giant cross and the bay in the background.....very picturesque..............eery now, with building sitting empty and dark.
I liked your adverse conditions thread; was that Westerley? Kept reading hoping for a hint might have missed one though. Nice looking work. Thanks for the input.
Bing
i think if you go a little further down that road, there's navy housing on the right?
Adverse was in Middletown...
i'm reg. in RI & licnsed in mass.
sorry to hear about your troubles... crazy worldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Further down ,Navy housing on the left ( going North); you're in the right neighborhood.
Bing
you need to contact your states attorney general.
I had considered that, but my thought was that since it has gone to receivership, isn't the legal system taking it's course. On the other hand, I have a feeling that if the AG dug into it, they'd find that there were some kind of improprieties in regards to $ released on the const. loan. Of the original 3 investors that started this , One is also a principal owner of the framing co. doing the frames of these buildings. Bet he got paid a bloated rate, and on time, too. Additionally, while I didn't check for green cards, I would guess just based on racial profiling that his company was using some less than visa'd help.
The problem with drawing attention to these things is that in the end, I feel it could sink the place even worse.(At least that was my attitude up till the last 2 mos. or so.) My FIL was interviewed by the Providence Journal for an article about the whole fiasco a few months ago, and he is incredibly upbeat in the story put forth, talking about how they love their spot, what huge potential the place has, etc. But that's him....... Maybe rightly... his attitude is that if he rags all over the whole deal, it makes people that much more leery of buying in, and ultimately that hurts him. He also believes in the whole premise of the dev. and wants to see it succeed................It would make a good expose' on the local news, but same thing, bad publicity not helpful.
Now bear in mind, that's been the attitude up till now; it may change if the receiver dumps the thing and the're faced with the project sitting like it is now for 5 years.
Anyhoo good advise on the AG....will talk to FIL on that one
Thanks
Bing
in for pence, in for pound, as they say.
As I've seen it and not to say I'm accurate but...
The AG may help but if he does he's probably going to be looking for criminal activity and not $$$ impropriety. Remember that the AG is a political position so re-election is always on their mind as they pick & choose cases. If the AG moves forward on a criminal case (which you have no control over once the direction has been set) you'll get absolutely no $$$$ if there's any to be had. If it stays in civil courts insurances and other sources may pay out.
Edited 1/14/2007 3:52 pm ET by john7g
You cannot pick up one end of the stick without picking up the other.
You agreed to watch the project...well the project isn't going as smoothly as everyone hoped. you need to live up to your end of the agreement.
Look at it this way...what if you don't tell the in laws and they notice these things once they move? They will think you are a idiot. What would that scenario do to your relationship.
Ahh...think you need to go back and look at the dates of the posts, as I started this thread a year and a half ago. I was very clear that I didn't think the place was quality, or up to my standards. They chose to proceed. I can't very well put a gun to their head and say " back out of the deal now" could I? The whole "what do I tell them and what don't I tell them" thing is long gone. They moved in ,like the place well enough, but it's gone belly up....read the whole thread
thanks anyway
Bing
LOL...don't i feel stupid. i never check the dates. oh well