I have a very small roof that is currently coated in hot tar and then has a number of cooler/compressor units on it. This roof is maybe 10 X 20.
There is need for repair, they are getting leaks below.
What would be a suitable liquid material to repair this roof? Something that can be brushed or squeegied on and that will dry.
Thanks in advance
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Replies
what's the condition of the current coating and membraine???
where do you suspect the leaks at???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Typical checking with separated parapet material. I suspect leaks primarily at the separations but the checks may also be allowing some infiltration.
I am leaning toward a standard elastomeric coating, cold-applied, white. It is currently black but the roof is over a cooler and I figured the white can help in that regard as well as in extending the life of the roof by keeping heat less of a factor.
But, even when I think I have the solution I like, I still like to bounce it off the good heads here because I often learn something new or better.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
I take it there is no aggrigate...
and what level and duration of repair are you looking for???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yes, there is no aggregate. I'd like something that will be reasonably long lasting while avoiding the cost and complications of removing all of the units on the roof.
This is a rather cluttered roof only over the coolers.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
remove the loose top coat...
vacuum the roof...
cold process a bimitous impregnated mesh membraine down... use only enough CP to get the job done...
top coat with Elastomeric...
if you have puddles of standing water the Elasto is a no go....
got pitch pans???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Why are puddles bad for elastomeric coatings? The roof does pool near the scupper.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
the elasto doesn't hold well under water..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What is the preferable alternative?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
You need a roof.Coatings of any kind are for maintanence and prolong the life of a good roof.Once it gets to the point where it is already leaking and puddling, a coating will do not more than to disguise a leak for a few months to a year and just get you by until you can find a good roofer and/or budget for the replacement, which sounds like it will be expensive, given the "cluttered" description.A roof should be built and done so there is no puddling. That is something that can shorten the life of ANY good roof system
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new roof...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yes, I would love to sell them a new roof too but the client's budget is currently allowing only for a repair.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Can you post a few pictures of this roof?
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Here are pics of the roof from various angles.
If you have questions about what you are looking at in any pic, just ask.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Piffen and IMERC will be back to reinforce how bad that roof really is.
Meanwhile I'll hazard a suggestion.
It doesn't look like those units are mounted on proper curbs. Just setting on block and doing a mini vibration dance every time they run. Propably eating holes in the roof right under each block and wallowing out the pitch pockets,if there are any, where the lines penetrate. Whatever you do won't last your warrenty year if you don"t get those units set on a proper curb, secured, and flashed.
I can't tell from the photos if there is a cant strip beneath the roofing material at the parrapet wall/roof corner. That is a good area for shrink cracks to form as the roof ages. The lack of a cant strip in the corner also means there is no support for the roofing material as it transition from the flat to the vertical on the wall. That sharp bend means the material was doomed to fail. Ever try to bend a piece of 30# felt into a 90 degree corner? It may look ok on the inside, but the back of the felt is cracked, leaving only a small layer on the front to do the job the whole piece was suppose to do. A few years of age or someone stepping close to the corner will finish splitting it open. The guys mopping in the tar, just slop over it and it holds for a few years.
I would bail on this one, or charge high enough that I could afford the call backs I would get over the next year or so.
BTW Tremco has a plant and office in Cleaveland. Give them a call. They may give you a free expert eyeball and suggestions for a chance to sell you thier products.
Edited 6/14/2008 7:35 am ET by DaveRicheson
no need....
that fact seems pretty well covered....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Pete,
That roof is a mess!
Look at the pic that shows the side of the concrete block supporting the cooling unit. It appaears that the water level has stained the block up several inches indication that the scupper exit elevation is too high.
The parapet sidewall junctions to the roof surface seem to have deteriorated, as well as poor repairs to the parapet sidewalls themselves. And as previously noted--the HVAc "curbs" are not standard, but a poor man's use of poor materials.
The flat surface areas look to be "mealy" and already degraded past the point of repair. Application of any gooey product would almost fail in a very short period.
That mechanical roof area needs a total rework. If I had to do a patch job, there would absolutely no warranty...all call backs would be T&M.
The RTU's need to be maintained also. What a poorly designed mechanical area!
Looks like a fastfood drive-up type place...if they can not afford to fix this then I would assume they are running on the financial edge of closure! IMHO.
Glad it is you and not me! Stick to your guns..professionally.
.......Iron Helix
did you climb up the clay tiles for that last pic?
Anyway, you need a new roof there. Or buy a few 5 gallon buckets of geocel 2315 and dump it out schmear it around, it mixes with bituminous by solvent action and makes a real mess if yer looking for pretty, but in this case may just buy ya some time.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
That was my next thought too.
Only I was going to suggest the aluminized coating that they use on trailer roofs.. Butt ugly, messy, but cheao at the big boxes.
Sphere and others,
Solvent-based is kind of where I was leaning after reviewing products online. It is said to bind better even through thin layers of dust/dirt.
I am planning to pressure wash the surface clean and then shop-vac it dry. Then apply a coat of a good quality coating.
I see a lot of gloomy input from guys but there are reasons that these businesses limit spending on certain projects at certain times. They have budgets and timelines. Replacing the roof now isn't a real option.
Anyhow, with some patch material like FG scrim sheet (fg mesh cloth) I think I can reasonably repair the parapets and then coat for a few years of durable repair.
Inserting a strip of epdm beneath the equipment "curbs" will/should aid in the longevity of the roof beneath them.
I certainly think there are reasonable alternatives to replacement at this time.
BTW, didn't have to climb the tiles.. there is another flat roof above but it is covered with white PVC sheet roofing.... I don't even know what the stuff is commonly called. There are some failed flshings and stopped drains up there that require my attention as well.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
The geocel ( ABC Supply) might be the ticket. It is Fibered. I'd swab 2-3 coats, a day or so apart to really feel confidant.
The white stuff ya see, might be MuleHide brand roofing, they also have a bunch of coatings and paints and stuff.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
The white stuff is a sheet product, very glossy... made of PVC IIRC... I think it is commonly refered to as TPO now that I think about it.
I am seeing more and more of it lately on commercial roofs.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
I would hire a qualified roofing company myself. Why risk the liability? Sometimes you are miles ahead to admit that something is out of your range of experience and expertise.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I put out a RFP to 42 companies in the area and none of them bid. I suppose the job is far too small.
Although, it is not the most complicated thing in the world. Pretty sure I can handle it if I have to.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Sounds as if you almost have to if that was the response you got. Good luck!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I don't know why no one else has suggested this but what about a blue tarp!!!!cheap and easy you could drape it over the whole lot;-)
go green....
use a silver one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"I put out a RFP to 42 companies in the area and none of them bid. I suppose the job is far too small.Although, it is not the most complicated thing in the world. Pretty sure I can handle it if I have to."I doubt because it is too small. As a roofer, I would only have taken this as a re-roof, and only done the parching we are talking about as a stop-gap measure.A new one there means some higher priced logistical planning to get those units off, replace the roof, and re-install them, all while the patient is still living. Looks like the kind of business like a fast food that is in operation almost round the clock. That complicates it all, adds to the liabilities, etc. That makes it a moderately big job for a company that knows what they are doing.bUt like you said, this owner can't afford to pay the piper, so they are asking for a re-tread instead of Michelens
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TPO is used in restaurant applications because of it's resistance to grease damage. EPDM is degradable by cooking residue. Both are susceptible to damage from out gassing from BUR and I believe Modified Bitumen as well, but IIRC, TPO is less susceptible than EPDM. In other words, you can't just stick some pieces of membrane to a BUR and expect them not to possibly degrade quickly. I can't tell from the pics exactly what is on that roof, but it's either modified or BUR or a combination of the two. Forget the membranes and clean and dry the surface as you planned. Ponytl's suggestion of melting the big cracks closed may be a good one. I've never heard of that before, but I like the concept. Then, coat with a liquid designed for this application. The silver coat would probably be the most effective for the money.
As someone else mentioned, the leader box looks like it's mounted too high on the scupper which may be causing backup onto the roof in deluges. I'd move it down where the top of the box is slightly below the bottom of the scupper.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Yeah, Pony's idea was a neat one. I wonder if the asphalt coating is chemically different though after a period of time with it drying and leaching.... hmmmm. I suppose for getting things smoothed out on bad roofs you really have nothing to lose.
The roof appeared to be built-up asphalt. The TPO or PVC roof is on the main building.
The scupper opening itself is higher than the roof... the drain is proper.
Also, the roof coating is not as bad as it looks in the pics... the standing water, clutter and debris make it look far worse than it is in reality. I would guess that this is the roof in its original condition... not the original roof but a first application of the current roof... never been recoated.
I am pretty confident that I can use a cold-applied coating to yield a fairly reliable end product. Like Duane said, solvent-based is the way to go... I suppose I could prime and then use a water-based elastomeric as they tend to be heavier but I don't know if that is worth the extra trouble and risk.
I was really hoping for some product referrals/suggestions... any ideas?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
>Like Duane said, solvent-based is the way to go..<As he said, Geocel 2315 is fantastic stuff but fairly pricey. Coating the roof with it will probably cost more than a maintenance coat of BUR. If you get it on right, it might last 4-5 years. I have no idea how it performs around grease, which is probably a concern.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Remelting the surface only deals with the surface which is applied for purpose of keeping the UV rays from degrading the paper plies. if that is cracked - or as the photo shows, torn - then the cracks have to be repaired with a compatible membrane before doing any surfacing or coatings
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Hey - tell Pete all that. It'd be cold day in ach-ee-double hockey sticks before I touched a mess like that. But, since he seems dead set on effing up, I thought I'd help him do it.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Already told him.
Just had to flesh out what you had said to make sure he doesn't miss it.
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You are talking newer products since I got out of it. I know th eGeocell patch product is pretty darn good if he can get it all clean. Expensive compared to the old BUR products.
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the mesh/membrane on the parapet walls can help take care of that if that is the source of the present leak. Looks possible given the torn off section.But I would definitely not warrantee a thing. That roof was poorly designed and installed so why buy their problems?But your idea of adding some EPDM as a patch product is way wrong. It is not compatible with bituminous materials and they will eat each other up.For coating get aluminum asphalt fibred roof coating after you patch cracks and damage with membrane and pooky and clean the surface.That and the standard tailgate warrantee.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't suggest patching with epdm.... just using strips as buffers between the wooden skids of the rooftop equipment and the roof.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Get the asphalt pads. We call them walk pads.
You can cut one into enough strips to go under the sleepers for the equipment.
As Piffen mentioned, compatabilty is an issue with EPDM, and I don't think it is thick enough to handle the vibration and not wear through quickly.
I think we paid a little over $120 for a 2x4' pad.
face the facts dude. you need a new roof.
I get the "big money" because I develop solutions instead of giving up and saying it can't be done. A new roof is not the only or best solution to this problem.
I researched and found this company right here in town. They make a coating that is solvent-based and with a 600% expansion ability.... completely impermeable. Better than any other stuff on the market.
They have different lines for different applications..... asphalt, tpo, pvc, metal, etc.
here is a link.
http://www.truco-inc.com/
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
So far, I am impressed. Let me know how it works out.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I saw some photos of metal roof coatings.. old rustymetal roofs turned to new (in appearance).... these coatings can be tinted too.
They did one huge public buiulding and tinted the coating to resemble aged copper... greenish. They also did a project on a house with metal shingles on the outside... tinted red and applied, looked amazing.
They have a product that is first sprayed on that converts the rust then the coating is applied. Material cost is about $1 psf for the system.
The cost for my application today is about 60 cents psf +/-.... depending on coverage.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Well, I applied the product according to specs.... which was no big deal.... and it rained like crazy the past few days and no leaks!
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
so where's the pictures?Oh - and my cut - don't forget to send that along
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Blurb in that link stated something about "certified applicators". You hiring this done or getting certified?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No, but I'll be staying at a Holiday Inn Express while I am handling this project.
I spent a couple hours with the owner of the company today and had a great time learning his products and their applications. He is the chemist that puts it all together... very interesting stuff.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Nice find....it's always good to be able to talk to the hands on man, especially when he is a chemist!
What application limits are there on the condition of the substrate on your roof fix?
Keep us updated...........Iron Helix
There is a polyester scrim (cloth-like material) that one can lay down over a really bad area, seam or imperfection before applying the coating.... frankly, my understanding is that you can essentially lay this over anything if you do it correctly.
I will be using a 12" piece to reinforce the curbs along the parapet.... and to build a few flashings.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Edited 6/18/2008 7:44 am ET by PeteDraganic
The polyester membrane is the re-inforcing material I was referring to in one of my earliest posts in thread. It is a basic staple of roof repair, not specific to this company, but it is good that you have a mentor there to coach you better.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This seems to be a neat fix with a good product to keep in one's personal bag of tricks!!!! More info/pics as you proceed, please!
............Iron Helix
i'm sure i'll get slammed for this but.... and i've only done this on my roofs....
takes a bit of time... but for a 10x20 might not be too bad... if you have good weather... i use a good degreaser... zep or simple green or something that will really clean grease & tar... use the cleaner with a pressure washer... and get the roof clean... very little will stick to dirt & dust... clean it and give it a few day to dry... then i use a hand torch and slowly torch the the area to be repaired... you don't want to just heat the top layer of tar... but you don't want to burn off the good stuff either... where you have alot of cracks i heat it til it flows and seals itself... once you get this done now you can recoat with a cold applied material.... and you will get some service out of it... you could even use torchdown on the whole roof... 2sqs... isn't alot even with alot of stuff to go around and alot of boots & stuff to make... $200 in materials... and a full day of detail work... not alot of fun... but it should work
p
I'd price it out with a cleaning /coating of that local good ya found ...
and also attach a warrentied price ... for demo / crane lift equipment / new roof and equip replace.
that area doesn't look big at all ... and the equip doesn't look to big either.
I'd shoot for lining up a crane on site all day .... lift the equip, have a roofing sub blast down new roof, then crane back and hook up the old equipment.
bet it could all be done in a day.
at the very least ... they'll have a plan for ya when a new roof is in the budget.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa