I am a custom homebuilder.
I have first meeting today with a past custom home client. He has city approved plans for a small 3 story hotel on 1 1/2 acres.
It is light frame construction. He wants me to GC the project.
I have never built a hotel. I have built restaurants, a small office complex, upscale and common wall townhomes, and apartments.
I ain’t skered, but any advise from those with experience (GC or subs) would be appreciated.
Replies
If you're interested and have a good supplier, panelized walls work well on light commercial buildings.
Lots of repetition, and enough volume that you can get some pretty competitive pricing.
Thanks Boss, good idea. All our homes are stick framed.
Well, I can speak to some experience with this, between having worked on a project or two and being related to an owner or two.
As a matter of design principal, and having been an end user, I really think that it serves everyone well to "bump up" a size or two in the engineering design phase. This still keeps the construction "light," it just uses heaver-dimensioned lumber. I'm hugely of the opinion that the ceilings must be seperated from the floors above. This will be of great assistance over the building lifespan to the owners, and a slightly better "comfort" to the guests.
There's an argument to be made, and one of the principals here at work will opine it as invariable, that using block walls and concrete plank to create the units and floors. However, to carry block & plank off requires a certain deftnes and "comfort" with that building style. It can be limiting to the owner in that any life-cycle utilities work is that much harder to execute.
Now, what might make for a very spiffy design might be to ICF the unit walls, use floor trusses between, and SIP the roof.
Now, all that presumes an interior-hall design. Exterior-access just begs for cantilevering the "walks." Which then suggests finding a "fire neutral" sort of structural design. Resist all temptation to design the units with a continuous concrete floor slab from back of unit right out to the exterior passageway. While it seems sensible at first blush, a single drainage path, sadly, works in both directions, not to benefit of owner, builder or designer.
Oh, and given your probable region, I'd start from a premise of wanting a conditioned c/s and attic, and needing a good ME to document the reasons why for the muni. Plan on an ME, too, even though all the units get an individual HVAC install; you still have to cope with common areas, and you need the ComCheck writeups to get permits (this can be significantly hard to get only using an a/c contractor--don't ask me how I know).
That help any? Or just muddy the water more?
Observations are great, but the plans are 98% finished.
While I like design work, no opprtunity here.
but the plans are 98% finished.
Well, that makes for a stickier wicket. If you can, though, see if you can get a meeting with owner & designer, to double check the plans versus future maintence and the like. If possible, check for flexibility in how you get to build the structure. Stick framing still allows for being able to value-engineer the work.
Will this be an "outside" or an "inside" facility? "External" passageways are a bit simpler, until you get to the "inside" spaces like lobby/office. With an "outside" motel, you kind of can approach the units as individual peices-parts. This can be batter, for the end user, as the units tend to be more self-contained.
An "inside" motel, that "wants" to be built as an entire shell, which you then subdivide internally. That can affect the way you want to schedule framing & finish work--which gets us back to value engineering the construction.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
does the designer have any hotel experience?
does the designer have any hotel experience?
That's a good question. May be fortuitous to have a consulting hotel builder on hand, then, to spot some of the common uh-ohs.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yes, the designer is an engineering firm whose work is primarily hotels.
You see these all over the place now days. 3 storys with inside rooms, all stucco on a rectangular shaped building with a hip roof, porte cochere and signage tower on the front of the roof.
Red Roof Inn?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Quality Inns and Suites
I think we can build a quality inn and hope the results are sweet in plural form.
quality in and sweets out
Pif,
I gotta get back to work, waiting for a call back from my insurance provider, banker and composing a primer for an agreement with hotel builder.
I am really not 3 weeks into this project. My first hint 3 weeks ago was just a phone call from the client....nothng since except the meeting yesterday.
Most things I mentioned in the long post were figured and done yesterday.
No sense in letting the grass grow up under my feet. I'm moving and shaking.
Someone said these types of commercail project can make you rich or break you. I am too old to take a haphazard approach, and don't need any more building practise, without proper compensation. The home building business is too good to be worreid about a hotel and perhaps 3. I am going to see how far I can take this situation.
Puff
One more comment:
The rain has stopped, there are hints of spring here already, the grass is green, the turtles are crusing the surface of the pond outside my home office and I am looking for buttercups and the sound of turltle doves in the land.
It does a lot for ones disposition. I'm sending the blessings of early spring your way, even though there may not be evidence...... thanks for you comments. Considerations of material staging, parking and the like will, no doubt, stick with me.
Thanks to all for the comments.
Has anyone seen my baseball glove? It is black and I can not find it. I ahve been using my dad's old one that looks like a modern glove that has been flatened and inflated with air. Very old school, but it works pretty good in teaching and playing catch with my 9 year old who has try outs tonight.
Sounds like the plans are already finished and with such a small lot, there probably isn't much room to vary anything.
Your site access and materials deliveries, parking for subs etc will have to be perfectly planned and co-ordinated because of those spatial restrictions.
Possibly some headache for managing neighbors too.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
In these here parts, some projects need a different licenses...for GCs and subs. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Texas, compared to mmany other parts of the country is still like the wild, wild west.
The lot is small, but at 14,000 Sf roughly, the footrpint only occupies 22%. There is a pre-designated future restaurant pad, and ample parking for the 60 rooms and staff l according to the city.
"ample parking for the 60 rooms and staff l according to the city."Well, the AHJ is all that counts, LOLWhat I was getting at froma spatial POV is room for the construction activity and materials deliveries themselves. You don't want the bathtubs - all sixty of them - and toilets to all show up the day you have a crane setting roof trusses, right?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No kiding, although 60+ toliets in the parking lot would make a good pic.
Better yet .. try 12-6' diam. x 5'-12' tall . SS fermenting tanks worth from 25K to 175K ea. showing up the same day as paving is happening because some A** didn't bother to call and confirm a delivery date as instructed.
I instituted a 24 hr call rule right at the start. If you didn't call to confirm delivery with me 24 hrs before your delivery was scheduled I would refuse to accept it.
Funny how upset people get when you tell truck drivers who have driven all night to meet their deadline to call their shippers and schedule another day for delivery.. I was just happy my foreman was about 6'4" and 280 lbs. and a good friend, being as I am about 5' 10 and 140lbs. ;-)
As I said.. your lot sounds big until you start building on it.
Thanks Dove,
No doubt. Maybe I should hire my 6'4" 280 lb cousin who is a painter and may still be a part time bounty hunter as he was last I talked to him. He told me when he is in pursuit of a fugitive he weres black leather pants, black cowboy boots, a leather vest which partially conceals a shoulder holster and pistol and carries a pistol straped to one leg and a knife to the other.
If he broke down my door, I think I would ask if he would like me to fix him something to eat instead of putting up a fight.
He used to be a real hell raiser, call Memphis PD Dectectives and ask them about Bobby and Eddie Luther. Eddie is another former hell raiser cousin. He is 6'9", and a former biker. Folks call him Lurch.
They would make a good security and job policy enforcement team.
"Hello Mr. Trucker, may we help you with something else before you remove your unscheduled self and truck from the site?"
Certainly can't hurt ;-)
It was rarely the truckers fault.
I felt bad for them and did everything I could to accomodate the individual who actually drove the truck. But sometimes I just had to say no.
Don't know if this pic will work , but it shows my entire site for the 16,000 SQ.Ft. Building, the slope of the site is 25%
The land above the rock wall is not part of the site.. I "Borrowed" it to stack lumber on.
scissors worklift parked inside? The blue one?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There are two all terrain man baskets parked inside, I can't recall if they were 40' or 60' booms on them .
We did have 5 scissor lifts going at one time inside later in the schedule, plus two more man baskets.
At the time the pic was taken we still had to erect one whole section of the building, the footings for which are apparant in front of the main building. That section had two steel columns 44' x 8" x 16" sitting on 6'x6' footers buried 5' deep. I re-engineered the columns (with Engineers Blessing) to allow us to bury the first 10' of the total length of the columns and then field splice on the balance . I had to do this because otherwise I could not have easily had a crane reach out to set our roof beams and trusses. The crane required a 25' x 25' level pad for set up.
The lot is ... 14,000 Sf roughly ... ample parking for the 60 rooms
Tell me I'm not reading this right. 14,000 sf lot for 60 rooms?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I was thinking at least 50% more than that.The last post is a good point too - does the designer have anyexperience at this type of building?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
14,000 SF is (roughly) the footprint on 1.5 acres. 1.5 acres is 65,340 SF.
14,000 SF divided by 65,340 = 21%
The footprint occupies 21% of the lot, with plenty of room for parking lots and a future restaurant pad.
3 stories and 38,000 SF
Now Eddie, if you are not going to pay attention to the story, please do not delay the class with questions due to your lack of diligence. : - )
Did I write something like you quoted "The lot is ... 14,000 Sf roughly ... ample parking for the 60 rooms" No wonder you are wondering.
But, it would work, we could build one car garage rooms, pull in and sleep in your car. room service would be girls on roller skates.
acre (ac or A)
a unit of area used for measuring real estate in English-speaking countries. "<!----><!---->Acre<!---->," an Old English word meaning a field, is derived from the Latin ager and Greek agros, also meaning a field. The acre was originally defined as the area that could be plowed in a day by a yoke of oxen. It was in use in England at least as early as the eighth century, and by the end of the ninth century it was generally understood to be the area of a field one furlong (40 rods or 10 chains) long by 4 rods (or 1 chain) wide. Thus an acre is 10 square chains, 160 square rods, 43 560 square feet or 4840 square yards. There are exactly 640 acres in a square mile. In metric countries the unit corresponding to the acre is the hectare, which is 10,000 square meters (the area of a square 100 meters on each side). One acre is equal to 0.404 687 3 hectare. Among traditional European land area units, the acre is typical in being defined as a day's work but unusual in not being visualized as the area of a square. Similar units include the French journal, north German and Dutch morgen, south German and Swiss juchart, Austrian joch, and Czech jitro.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Edited 2/8/2007 2:25 pm ET by txlandlord
I thought you were saying that 14000 feet is the paved space alotted to the parking lot.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My experience is is coming from a custom residential to being a commercial superintendent on several large projects on small and difficult sites. Some things I learned. (This all may sound stupid and obvious but) :
My biggest surprise was that in the commercial field the subs and suppliers will quite often expect the G.C. to provide lifts, loading and unloading and secure storage for their materials. They will also have that written in the fine print in their contracts, along with delivery schedules. I found this to be quite a bit different than residential (at least here where I live). CYA is the rule instead of the "We can do this Together"
Nothing quite like having 3 semi's full of sprinkler pipe and fittings delivered into the only driveway the same day you are trying to pump and place 150 yds. of concrete.
Some days I felt like I was nothing but a parking lot attendant and traffic cop. Start right from the beginning establishing parking areas for trades people, for unloading and for visitors. Anybody parks in the driveway will find their rig being moved by the Lull, ( I can't tell you how many times I Heard " I will be here just a few minutes", while abandoning a rig in the middle of the only driveway) Your site is going to get real crowded real quick.
Another issue is shop drawings.. everything gets shop drawings, each one has to be cycled through the appropriate engineer/architect/supplier. Failure to track the progress of these drawings can spell disaster for a schedule.
I often wished for a secretary type to cover the paper work trails, and record keeping while I devoted my time to solving the problems in the field. Daily logs, Shipping Invoices, OSHA records, RFI's , Inspection results, HAZ Mat records, & Change orders all need to be dealt with.
Give your site super a break ( unless you are going to be the super in which case give yourself a break) and ask what they need to deal with some of this stuff.
Edited 2/8/2007 1:06 pm ET by dovetail97128
"Some days I felt like I was nothing but a parking lot attendant and traffic cop"Been there on a nine bedroom house with one narrow driveway! Add ferry sceduling problemson top.One incident was where I had the insulators scheduled for phase one one monday and tuesday, and the AC duct guys for same space on thursday. everybody enmded up showing up on wednesday instead. They all started crying like babies. I told the insulators - "You're first up and two days late. Quit wasting my time and yours bellyaching and get something done to get out of their way."
Then I turned to the duct guys and told them "There is room for your materials right in the center of that room and the insulators can work around the pile. If they don't have enough done by time you carry it all up here to the third floor for you to start, then look around to plan your day tomorrow and move on. I'm glad you are early but you can see it ain't ready enough for you to complain yet. Save that for tomorrow."Funny part of it all is that the AC duct guys were both over fifty and heavy, out of shape, and they were huffing and puffing to carry all that way on up, then it was a different crew that came out the next day to start the install...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Get friendly with the local Fire Marshall. He'll most likely do a walk through that could cost you $$$$$$$$$ if you don't plan in advance for what he is expecting to see in the finished project. Best to have a chat with him now so you can plan the extras into your bid. i.e. A sprinkler system!
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
It could be different there in Tx but here, you don't get a permit without having the fire marshal's preliminary review letter and approval already submitted. along with water and waste water surveys etc
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
All,
Some may recognize this is a similar version of a post to JLC.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Ok, we had the first meeting. I was formerly presented with the opportunity. The incentive is now greater as the hotel partners have already purchased two properties aside from the 1 1/2 acre for starts after this one is completed. One of the sites is 10 minutes away from my house. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The first hurdles I must clear are qualifications with the lender. The lender will require a portfolio, healthy financials and bonding. We have never had the bonding requirement. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I do not doubt our financial health and history. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
We have a company who handles our GL, Builders risk and WC. They provide bonds. Regarding a bond, someone mentioned taking out a 2nd mortgage on my home. What can I expect in securing a bond? <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
After the meeting, I called a friend who worked for me and remains a good friend. He is with a company that builds strip centers now, but worked for a hotel builder. He contacted the hotel builder and in turn, the hotel builder contacted me. The hotel builder is willing to sign on with us as an associate and provide his portfolio as our "grouped" experience. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I understand that some my subs for custom homes would be questionable. The aforementioned, hotel builder is willing to help in a study and pricing of the plans, provide his resources for vendors and subs, and continue as a consultant on site or via email / phone throughout the project. I do have another friend who worked for me as a construction manager several years ago, who is ADA Certified by NAHB. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It is interesting that we may have a reciprocal agreement. He has been invited to build some townhomes in an older Victorian / folk are of <!----><!----><!---->Houston<!----><!----> called the heights. His experience is lacking when it comes to residential.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The plans are extremely well done. They impressed the city, containing well detailed <!----><!---->ADA<!----><!---->, and emergency code requirements. <!----><!---->ADA<!----><!----> and emergency code requirements and systems have been on my mind since the first call. I realize my inadequacy in these areas. <!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The hotel is 3 stories, 60 room rectangles, of light frame construction, being overall and roughly 72 x 195 and 38,000 SF. It has an indoor pool. We have built pools, and are building one on one our current custom home projects in association with a local pool company. The pool company has a commercial division. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
So, into this for 3 weeks I have:<!----><!---->
Healthy financials<!----><!---->
Experienced hotel builder, his portfolio and resources<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->ADA<!----><!----> consultant<!----><!---->
Commercial pool builder<!----><!---->
My subs that would be capable:<!----><!---->
Concrete crew / 25 year relationship and 25 men<!----><!---->
Frame crew / 3500 SF - 16,000 SF custom homes / 20 - 25 men as necessary<!----><!---->
Stucco crew who is regularly engaged in projects larger than the hotel<!----><!---->
Capable and well staffed roofing crew<!----><!---->
Capable and well staffed electrician with commercial experience<!----><!---->
and other subs that may qualify with their experience and employee count <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I'll keep you posted, and would certainly appreciate further advise.
You are already farther into this than I or most respondents here realized.On the subs, I would be having meetings with all of them for palns study to see what caution flags come up and if they have any suggestions for managing issues. Listen most closely to the ones with similar experiences to this project and/or those who have worked in this geographic area.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup! Different here.Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
Great tag line!Some think I think I know too much and others think I think too much, I think.
But can you ever?
Think?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As Laurel said to Hardey.Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
Without any experience you will enter another world of fire caulking, shaft walls with limited space for the plumbing, computer cables, etc.
I just finished a concrete plank hotel where we framed the interior, drywall, ACT, doors and insulation. Never again will I do a concrete plank job! Every 4 rooms opposite each by 5'6" in the hallway had at least a 1" unlevel floor. Try one piece door frames to height align 4 door frames. The concrete planks are soft anmd don't take pins well. Just one bid headache!
I suggest if you truly want to do it is to get bids from experienced subs in all trades and hold them to the extras that will pop up; otherwise it could becom4e a nightmare.
If the job is wood frame, it is much easier, just be careful of the shaft walls.