So any demolition experts out there? Looking to demo a concrete block house we own and am debating on what piece of equipemt to rent. The wheeled loader or the swing arm, tracked excavator?
Probably will just knock the house down and pile it up for someone else to load and haul away so loading capabilities arenot a big requirement.
And there are no space limitations on the lot so any piece of equipemt will fit in there.
Any folks with equipment experience care to share their opinion?
Thanks
Mike
Replies
My objective in this situation would be to figure out what equipment would be the most fun.
I'm thinkin' a main battle tank.
Forrest
Big excavator with a thumb - you can sit nearby and reach most things without using the tracks. Pile, sort etc., however you like. Especially handy on a small site. Dig yourself a big hole and bury the block.
A loader will do the job too, but will tear up a lot of ground, and unless your very experienced, will take longer.
If VaTom is your neighbor, call him.
If VaTom is your neighbor, call him.
LOL... Actually this kind of thing is fun. My approach, use what's available, actually is apt. Clearly a thumb on an excavator is best. A thumbless excavator is going to be distinctly inferior.
Then you get to moving the debris. Excavators are great only to where they reach without moving the machine. Going very far, rubber-tire loaders are the ticket, even with care to prevent tire problems (almost non-existent with rock tread). Thumbed excavator directly into a dump truck is hands-down best, if you have room.
We didn't have anything to puncture tires on this job. Did have a shortish distance to move the debris to where it was buried and not enough room for my dumptruck. One weekend they brought in a mid-sized excavator and wanted me to move debris with the track loader I had there. Wrong tractor, too slow.
Brought Bertha and had no problem staying well ahead of the excavator. As these things go, she's medium-sized, meet Bertha:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Zero experience except for watching someone take down a neighbors house that had burned.
I say the excavator.
You can stay out of the way. You can reach over the top and do things like take out the roof. Then knock down walls from the top.
With a loader you are up close and personal with the wall that you are trying to knock down.
tracked loader...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Guys,
Thanks for the input. Hadn't thought about the capability to pick and sort with an excavaotor with a thumb.
And I like McDesign's thought as well as the "fun factor" is alos a must to consider.
Mike
What's going there once you get the house knocked down?
David,
Bought the property (3 acres) to subdivide and resell...maybe building on, maybe not depending on the market. Land sells fast and high around here but spec homes don not so we just may resell the land.
House is a mess with termites and unpermitted work such as an electrical rewire that looks like a 7 year old did it. I'm surprised it hasn't burnt down yet. Plus it was built in the 50s so it needs a lot of work due to many years of neglect.
Mike
Excavator with a thumb is the standard around here and we see a load of tear-downs with our land prices.
Even more so for a novice, I'd go with the excavator..... you'll be a much safer distance away from the action than you would in a loader. I don't see all that many track loaders around here anyway and I'd really recommend something with tracks if you're going to be moving around in that kind of debris. Them big 'ole loader tires sure ain't cheap.
dont you watch extreme make over, track hoes
Excavator with thumb is standard here.
I'd hate to have to buy a rubber tire after slicing one open on a loader big enough to demo a concrete house.
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Another vote for tracked excavator with thumb.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Excavator with thumb. Works like a charm. And alot of fun.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
Excavator with a thumb.
Especially if you plan to remove the foundation too, which you probably should... If I were you I'd line up the dump trucks and load 'em up while you are at it, to save equipment fees, although that would likely take an experienced operator. Most dump truck owners don't like it when you drop a little 400# piece of debris on their cab - for that matter, they really don't want stuff dropped in the bed eather. Better to set it in there.
As far as fun factor, I once rented a 330 series track hoe (excavator). I think that might be 33 metric tons. :-) I had an operator, but while he was not there one day, I decided to "play". I mean I was paying for the thing - actually my company. I wouldn't say the thing was particularly easy to operate, but will say that the feeling of power as you swing around 40,000 lbs of steel is exhilarating. The thing kinda creaked and felt like it was about the size of a house... totally awesome!!! And digging a hole the size of a small car in one swipe - total POWER!
I'd go with the excavator mainly for what Piffin mentioned - Rubber tires and demo work are a bad combination.
Lord, I wish to find you, but spare me from those who have!
I have a 25 ton John Deere excavotr with a thumb we use on the odd demolition job we do. Its the only way to go. It has a forestry package on it so if something does happen the machine and operator are safe but its not really necsarry because were never that close. A loader can be handy to have but its not neccesary. I bought mine used from a scrap metal yard with wrecker tires on it so you don't have to worry about flats. But we only use it on big jobs to assist with clean up. Usually though we just use the excavator. If the building has a basement you won't be able to do it with a loader.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong but it sure sounds like everyone is suggesting an excavator with a thumb? :)
Will be checking on those with my local equipment centers on Monday. Thanks folks.
Mike
The excavators around here all have medium sized Kobelco or Hitachi machines with thumbs and 2-3 buckets. If I need to demo and load something like you're describing I hire someone with the machine and a dump truck to do it. I've played with excavators a few times when no one was looking and it would take me quite a while to develop the coordination those operators already have.
You might check into what a sub would charge to come in, take down the building, and haul it away. I doubt I could even rent the machine and get it delivered here for what I'd pay them. Maybe do it yourself if you're looking to have some fun. I know a guy here who can throw boulders discus-style with his machine... pick it up, spin around a few times at full speed, then let 'er go. Do not try this at home!
Just watched a demo where they used a small excavator with a thumb and several roll offs that allowed for sorting the debris, concrete products in one (or two) wood in another, metal etc... They did a lot of hand demo on the inside from what I could see.
OakRiver Mike,
Well the really correct piece would be an excavator with a thumb..
However unless you've used one before and mastered the rub your belly and pat your head way they operate you will be extremely slow and prone to mistakes..
I found the really neat way to demo any house is with a forklift.. a Telehandler. I run a pair of forks into the building and pry up.. If the house is properly fastened to the foundation you need to use the fork tilt because you have the most force that way. If however it isn't (mine wasn't) I simply raise both stories up in the air about thirty feet and then tipped the forks down.. Gravity is wonderfull. Small pieces easily carted into the dumpster.. Dramatic as heck!
Now you need to consider something.. If you need to have someone haul it off anyway check on what they want for the job.. often the differance in costs is less than what you will pay for renting (and hauling to and from the rental house) heavy equipment.
Is there anything you won't do with a forklift Frenchy? :)
Marc,
gee! I've been caught!
Well to a guy with a hammer all problems should be solved with a hammer, since I sell forklifts it's natural that I tend to use them a lot.
That plus I've been selling them for 15 years and it's natural that I am rather skilled at using them..
But actually you need to see a building 30 feet in the air when it's dropped.. Rather awesome!
Don't do this unless you have foam filled tires or you will be spending a lot with the tire guys.. Actually nobody should use a forklift unless it has foam filled tires.. all you need to do is lift something 40 or 50 feet in the air and then find out that one of the tires has a slow leak. Trust me it will teach you a whole new religion! ;-)
How big of a forklift do you need to lift a house?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
If the purpose of lifting it is for distruction most stick built single stories can be handlled with a 6000 pound forklift. Well... er, A 6000 pound Ingersol Rand
I make the distinction because a lot of so called 6000 pound forklifts don't have the capacity that Ingersol Rand puts in theirs.. check the manufactures load chart for verification.. I know the Cat's and Lulls I used to sell couldn't do it..
A two story will need to be lifted one corner at a time. Once broken free it weighs surprising little. Again it really depends on a number of factors. I am speaking about my old house which was only 30 feet wide. I suppose a house that is 50 feet or wider would again need to be lifted a piece at a time..
I thought a pound was a pound? There's Ingersoll Rand pounds and Cat pounds? Could you possibly convert 7000 Cat pounds to Ingersoll Rand pounds for me cuz I'm a little confused. Oh yeah... and how many Lull pounds would that equate to?
Maybe Joe Bartok could put together one of his online calculators for us?View Image
dieselpig,
If you check your load charts you will see that the Cat quickly loses capacity as it reaches forward. One of the "tricks" I do in a demo is to pick up 9000 pounds on the forks of a 6000 pound IR and carry it around..I then offer the same wieght to any of my competition present at the demo.. Lull with it's transaction is even worse than Cat is especially as the boom is transfered forward.
hate to say this but you're a fool to not get the trucks there to haul off the pile as you take it down. excavator w/clamshell bucket. Always use the biggest machine you can get that will fit. More cost effective $ wise. One day done , gone , move on. Jim
Jim,
Oh, I totally agree. Its just the available money to do it all at once. The excavator is going to run around $1,500 to rent for a day or two or I can have it all done for me at the tune of $10k...which is currently unavailable.
So I may just have to drop the house now and worry about the debris when the money is available. Maybe have to do it one dumpster at a time? Urgh.
Mike
Took one down in about '92. When I got there at 6:45, the operator had his clamshell bucket clamped onto the ridge and he was eating a sandwich waiting for further instructions. He'd dump everything into a pile. When he was waiting for the dumpsters to get back, he did donuts on the debris with those big tracks, grinding everything into sand and toothpicks. Seven AM, a 2400 sq.ft. house. Noon, the last can was heading down the road and the operator was loading the hoe and packing up. I think there were 4, maybe 5, dumpsters total.
Tom,
Thats a great story as I can see it happening. Thanks
Did you have to provide the sandwhich? ;)
Mike
No, he had his own. We'd spent about a week doing some selective demo to salvage some of the nicer components. We pretty much sat and watched for most of the day, but every once in a while one of us had to go in with the appropriate tool (chainsaw, recip saw, or axe) to cut something loose that had him hung up.
But it went quick. He knew exactly what he was doing, and the way he ground the wood into mulch made for pretty efficient dumpster loading.
How long will the city let you leave it on the ground?
"Being a cowboy aint all ridin and shootin" - Tim Mooney
Probably as long as I want as it used to be a crack house we bought and are cleaning up...The neighbors are ecstatic.
In actuality, it probably wouldn't be there more than 30-60 days.
It's worth looking into though. This summer we demo-ed about 80% of a house for a major addition. It would have been a full tear-down and rebuild from scratch but it was a non-conforming lot.
Anyway.... point I'm trying to make is that we went home one Friday early. About 3pm. There was a pile of debris on one side of the house as the dumpster was full. It was a 'neat' pile.... it wasn't just stuff that was laying around where it landed. DPW called the homeowner, who called the GC, who then called me. We were told to either get it in a dumpster or move it all back inside the house. GC managed to line up another dumpster and the homeowner, myself, and GC loaded it at about 7pm on a Friday night.
Now that felt like we were getting our balls broken, but they did actually have every right to enforce that on us. So, make sure that you can leave that sort of debris laying around before you get stuck in a spot where you can't afford to haul it out of there. You might be able to squeek a week or so out, but if you're talking a month or more, I'd say you need a new plan. The liability alone would make me want to get the site cleaned up as quick as possible. You know a mess like that is gonna attract kids and teenagers. One of them gets hurt on your pile of crap and you're gonna have some real financial problems with finishing that house.View Image
Good point although right now I've got a homeless guy living in it who won't leave so I really can't lose as I bet if he gets hurt there I'd get sued just the same.
And yes, I'm serious. I've called the sheriff and they said they can come out but if he leaves before they get there, they can't do much.
ReaDING THINGS LIKE THIS MAKE ME GLAD i LIVE IN aLABAMA jIM
>>Probably as long as I want as it used to be a crack house we bought and are cleaning up<<
Been through that too. Everyone thought it was great that I bought a neighboorhood eyesore to clean up. But then the city started the hassle about everything.
Pizzed me off that they wouldn't do anything until after I bought it. Then it all of a sudden becomes urgent.
Anyway, good luck on your clean up project. This is a good thread. Brought out some good points of view and information.
"Being a cowboy aint all ridin and shootin" - Tim Mooney
Mike, how big is this house?What kind of foundation?I ask because those numbers don't make sense. I see a day of track hoe, a day of loader, move in/out, and the haul. Anyway, all I do is excavation and demolition. The track hoe with a thumb is the primary tool.If the block walls are not core-filled then this house should be a neat but otherwise unrecognizable pile in an hour or two.It should be gone by the end of the day. The haul should not be any more than about $9.50 per ton for less than 30 miles round trip plus an hourly fee for load time and the tipping fee, which you can call the landfill to find out. Someone mentioned dump truck damage. True, but you should not be using that kind of truck that could be damaged that way. For demolition we us rock-tubs -- half-round beds with high-lift gates, you can load rocks 3,500 pounds at a time and it won't hurt a thing. A bunch of concrete won't even leave anything more than a scratch.Best bet is an end-dump. Even a short end-dump rock tub can haul 20 tons.The foundation is a wild card, but maybe you can re-use it or just bury it in place. If the slab is a good-quality monopour that is a whole different story. But the house itself (above the foundation) shoulf be almost insignificant.And all of the posters who suggested hauling it off immediately are correct. It will be cheaper in the short run and the long run. When trucks are scarce I have been known to tell the container company to bring me three 30-cy roll-offs the night before and then change one an hour until I say stop. You wouldn't believe how fast a house can disappear.Don't rule out a skid-steer loader for cleanup. A skidsteer in the 80-hp range with a skilled operator can keep up with a really big excavator as long as the haul distance is kept short. And it's cheap.Above all, if you do not have experience with a track hoe this is really, really not the job to learn on. You can do a lot of damage to the machine unwitingly, and you can hurt yourself so fast you won't evenb know how it happened. Not trying to be condescending at all. But the nature of your question suggests a certain lack of experience, and demolition is not a good place to start.For example, I often see people accustomed to backhoes try to use the same "brushing" or sideways pushing motion with the bucket of a track hoe. Really tough on the swing gear and swing motor. Look at a backhoe -- it's built differently. Also, you can get into C/G problems quickly in demolition. Dropping the machine on its undercarriage is very, very tough on the machine. It's also easy to scar a piston doing demolition on CMU unless you know what you are doing. That's a repair you do not want to pay for. I have also seen slightly experienced operators (?) put themselves in terribly dangerous situations and not realize it until it was too late because they did not know how to think about what comes next or what would happen next.But if you do decide to do this, read the operator's manual, inspect the rental machinecarefully before you begin (I do it on every rental machine), form a plan, and take your time. The job will go faster and better.
Cat,
Great reply! Thanks.
And no, no offense taken at all as I'll be the first to admit, I've spent the last 18 years BUILDING things and not tearing them down. I've run an excavtor once or twice but am in no way shpae or form an expert or even "experienced" on one.
Yeah, I thought the prices were high as well. Its only a 1500 sq. ft single story home with a slab on grade foundation and being built in the 50s probably only has the corner cells filled if at all. I'm in the process of gutting the interior and removing all the "stuff" inside (AC, plumbing items, etc) but the cost is still high. It does also include removing about a 40 foot cracked up drive way but I could probably do that with a skid steer which I am pretty good with.
Just trying to find the most cost effective way to do it. With the costs I've gotten for excavator rental, $1,500... it may NOT be cost effective for me to do it myself!
Once again, thanks for the input!
Mike
You're welcome, Mike. That's part of what makes this place so great is the variety of experience everyone brings. I know that I receive far more than I am ever able to pay back here. Every now and then someone has a dirt or concrete or demolition question that I can answer, but mostly I'm learning from you guys.I can make a track excavator run the way it's supposed to, but you guys would either laugh or cry watching me try to put up crown molding. <G>I think you just answered your own question. If you are good with a skid steer this job should be a slam dunk. A big skidsteer is more than capabale of what you are describing, especially with a demolition grapple.Why not line up the trucks or the dumpsters, pay an excavation sub a half day minimum charge to flatten everything and mash it up, and load it out yourself?I do half-day minimums for people, it's no trouble at all, especially for contractors who I want to work with.Just keep the area clean (sweep up as you go with the skidsteer) so you don't get flats or torn tires, and off you go.In the best of all worlds, maybe somebody needs this material as fill and you can avoid part of the tipping fee.If the slab needs to go also, drill a bunch of 1-1/2 inch holes 3/4 of the way through any turndowns or thickens, pour some Dexpan in there, rent a wet saw for the day and score the thin parts of the slab into rectangles you think the skid steer can handle, and this way you will not need a hammer. You can move everything out in big chunks. Very fast. Just cut the rebar if any when it shows up.I do not understand why people use jackhammers on slabs. What a waste of time and money.I think you have this one figured out. You can do most of it yourself, and the biggest cost will be the haul.
Is this the sort of thing you are trying to do? ;-)
http://www.sikvid.com/vids/3308.html
Wow, thats scary!
whatcha trying to do,i click on and see the dumba..'s pull a building down on them.then it pops up check out the blonde video,next thing i know i'm where i shouldn't be lol. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.