Hello all, for a sole purpose of putting my mind at some ease, how much precise detail go’s with your home related jobs. Having had many a discussion about this subject with a carpenter friend of mine, a framer, 1-2″ slop is allowed and never “caught” in his finished product. Would this be acceptable with all the folks who follow him up or wouldn’t they even notice themselves’? Is he right?
MELANOGRAMMUS AEGLEFINUS
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Replies
MELANOGRAMMUS AEGLEFINUS,
Framing member tolerances should be to the 1/64th of an inch.
I thought a RCH was all that was allowed these days?
Thank goodness for those lasser guided saws to hone in on those cuts.............
great, another abbreviation to learn.
"just nail that board up there!!!"
"look, lady..."
I just have to laugh ... asking that question here, the home site of obsessive/compulsives anonymous ....
I think the correct answer is "half the size of the smallest mark on your tape" ... if it measures 1/16, then only 1/32 is acceptable ...
Oh wait .... maybe that's just me ...
Bill.
Roar! Great timing there Bill;o)
"just nail that board up there!!!"
"look, lady..."
yeah, that was perfect ... wasn't hard to see it coming though ...
laughing ... just got a new tape at JLCLIve .. I think I can get down to 1/128th now ...
Bill.
P.S. Who's gonna provide the Latin translation? I'm sure we have that skill here somewhere ...
Not all that anonymous, but certainly obsessive/compulsive. I like the "half the size of the smallest mark on the tape", since that's what I find myself doing (unless I'm working with the dial caliper, which does do 64th's).
Really? You have a caliper graduated in fractions?
Unc- I have one , too. I bought it at Highland Hardware in Atlanta. Actually it was mail order.
Its not used alot, but it does come in handy for some of us neurotics.
I got one... It'll go to 1/128Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yea highland hardware sells a dial caliper that shows fractions. WIll set you back 20-30 bucks, comes with a case. THe inside measurements can still be read in decimels.
Highland Hardware rocks.
Yes; i'm not in the shop now to look at it, pretty sure its by General, but its a dial caliper, and the dial is calibrated both in 64th's and decimal. I used a plain steel one for years, but these old eyes just weren't making it figuring what line was next to the barely distinguishable mark, so I went for the dial model, and its a major upgrade.
A fishy question indeed... and should expose the real people here that deal with this issue of quality in the service industry everyday. It's horrible. When you go into the grocery store and fill up your basket and only want to pay half price.?
I have nothing against framers, Taunton, fellow piers, or people who come here to learn. I have learned much over here- But I do have something against liars, manipulators, people who put spyware and hack your computer, and appear as an "expert" when all they are good at is twisting words around and making fun of people.
I may not be the best educated here, but I am trying with what I have. I am much better working with my hands then expressing myself. But to these people that I speak of- PIKE off BURK! Game over. People are trying to learn here.
My apology to Taunton for losing my good nature. Seems like some people have misunderstood my good nature for sure.
I feel a need to respond since mine was one of the first wise-guy responses. I haven't seen anything in this thread that was intended to make fun of you, and apologize for myself (and all of us) if it came acoss that way - no offense was intended.
You touched on a topic that comes up a lot - what I wrote, and what most of the others wrote, was really poking fun at ourselves. This is a crowd that really does seemed obsessed with precision, sometimes to a fault. If you read around, you'll see a group of folks having fun with each other, in between giving some incredibly good advice.
Your original question was a little broad - I know somewhere in the thread at least one person gave a serious answer, but let's try again. You asked about acceptable tolerances in framing, and mentioned errors in inches. That sounds unacceptably large, but it's important to know more about what you're doing - can you refine the question a little more, such as "how much out of square can my frame be in a building that is X by Y feet?"
Again, sorry for the hard feelings. I think you too may have misunderstood our good nature.
Bill.
Yeah, what BillW said...
I have to ask though...
What does this mean ?
liars, manipulators, people who put spyware and hack your computer, and appear as an "expert" when all they are good at is twisting words around and making fun of people
Just who here do you think is
1. Lieing ?
2. Manipulating ?
3. Putting spyware on your machine and hacking your machine ?
4. Twisting words around, and making fun of people.
Maybe more specifically on number 4, who do you think is twisting your words and/or making fun of you ?
And I'd really like to know who you think is putting spyware on your machine, or hacking into it from here...
For the rest of the time that you're given Why walk when you can fly
quittintime
Ok ok, so maybe I do do 1/32nds instead of 1/64ths.
"just nail that board up there!!!"
"look, lady..."
"BURK" ...
how many times I gotta tell ya ...
it's Buck!
not burk.
please people ... let's get it right.
and what's a pike off?
opposite to "fish on"?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Oh no -- I think I am in trouble.
I thought whoever it was here that used to say "Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it with an axe" was serious.
I mean, it was Breaktime and all. I'd better get going -- I have a lot of trim and some plumbing to fix quick before anyone sees it.
DRC
mel....."never caught" ?... i catch those from the curb... a 2" slop?... hah, hah, hah...
his reputation must precede him.... everyone from the board hangers to the trim guys to the siding guys knows about it
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This all reminds me of my (farmer) Uncle's substitute for the torque wrench he didn't own. "Tight as you can get it, and a half a turn more !"
Greg
It must be one of those, 'good enough for who it's for' kind of deals.
You should be able to put a Bosch angle finder anywhere on the framing. If a corner is between 89.9 and 90.1, it's ok.
Who's obsessive?
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Haddock,
Slop, what slop.
If you can measure it it's too much.
Neurotik! who youo calling neurahtic!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!@?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?@?!?!?!?!?!!@?@?!@?!~?!?
SamT
I always tell my helpers 1/64th and leave the line on...I don't even think they know how to read a sixty fourth.....lol.....they think I'm outta my mind.....well so would you if you saw this house..although you all already probably do anyway ; )))~
andy
My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Damn , I went to a tape that only went down to 16ths and those are getting harder to see . What do you guys do carry a magnifyn' glass with you?
"I always tell my helpers 1/64th and leave the line on..."
My Dad told me he worked for an old carpenter when he was a teenager. The old carpenter told Dad:
"When I draw a pencil line on a board, I want you to cut half the line off, and leave the other half."
Mind you, this was back in the days of hand saws.The Democrats are all over this. Democratic strategists feel John Kerry's war record means he can beat Bush. They say when it comes down to it voters will always vote for a war hero over someone who tried to get out of the war. I'll be sure to mention that to Bob Dole when I see him. [Jay Leno]
LOL Boss- leave half the line!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!
I would like my helpers to cut on the correct side of the line
But I've got to tell you guys I would have a hard time reading anything less than 1/16th.........
Just keep the bubble between the lines will ya?"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
The only instruction in framing I ever got was from a guy who always specified whether to leave the line, remove the line or split the line. Seriously, I always thought that was normal. Now I know who screwed me up. I'll have to look him up and give him hell for turning me into a precision-obsessed nut. Bill.
LOL- we don't have blades sharp enough to split a line.......hehehehe"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Which direction are you talking? Plum and straight? I always use the string line technique and works good for me. And no he is not right. What was and what it should be are 2 different things.. you said this...Ahh! Live with what you get I suppose.. ;(
There was an article recently (3-4 issues ago) by Larry Haun about tolerances in construction. Larry is very experienced and well respected, but this article rankled a lot of people here. He was talking about 1/8 and 1/4 inch tolerances in rough framing...Does that give you a clue as to the answer to your question?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ok, I'll bite...
What does... MELANOGRAMMUS AEGLEFINUS mean ?
For the rest of the time that you're given
Why walk when you can fly
quittintime
Haddock: - Melanogrammus aeglefinus
The meat is white and has texture. It is a high quality product for "Fish & Chips" and has found a use in minced products, such as fish cakes and puddings.
http://www.havbruk.no/fishlist/hyse.html A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
So we're all talking to a fish ?
For the rest of the time that you're given Why walk when you can fly
quittintime
You posted that just for the Hallibut didn't you?Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
View Image A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
My son-in-law has had to hang cabinets behind this guy, or his cousin. "Square" and "level" are NOT part of their vocabulary. Unreal what they can get away with in $250K+ tract homes in California!
"1/64th sounds good as a goal."
Maybe for cabinet making. But not for framing.
I think you've been using CAD too long. It's easy to get picky when you're drawing lines on a computer screen. But using tolerances like that will only drive people nuts in the field.
Today I dialed a wrong number... The other person said, "Hello?"
"I said, "Hello, could I speak to Joey?"... "
They said, "Uh... I don't think so... he's only 2 months old."
"I said, "I'll hold."
Haddock,
Your questions is too simple, IMO.
But since you have no cents of hyoomer, here's a serious answer.
Different precisions for different applications.
Slap-it-together; cover a hole in a work space floor, measure to a couple of inches, add a foot or so, make one mark and drop the saw aimed at the mark you can't see.
Rough framing; that is, the shell and what will not be seen or hold a fine finished veneer. Measure to 1/8"and split the line. Use a speed square unless you have trained yourself to cut square without a full line. 1/8" is standard modular dimensioning.
Split the line is standard and is normally used unless other wised called for, ie; take the line or leave the line.
Precision framing; building a barn window or door, framing for a sheet metal covered eyebrow, utility shelving, measure to 1/32" and use the line as called for, gives a cut to 1/64". Use a speed square and no eyeballing.
Piano building and other fine furniture work; measure to the center of the line of your measuring device, mark the line with a razor knife using a machinests square, cut to leave the line and sand or plane to the line, dry fit, sand some more, repeat as needed.
I find that all I need to use are the slap-it-together or the piano building method for most homes in the $1.00 to $10,000,000.00 range. (|;>)
Level and square are for other posts.
SamT
Edit: Sorry ED, is this better?
ST
Edited 4/7/2004 2:01 pm ET by SamT
Sammy ya had me wondering for a minit there... Wish you had mentioned in the beginning that you were providing a variety of acceptable tolerances, in ascending order. Took me a while to figger out what the first one was doing on the list.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ron
I hate like hell to let you know my prediction for the "near" future.
A chop box with a puter attchment and a feed table that cuts in incriments smaller than a .well you know.with just a setting of the puter and no hands.
BE well bro
andy"My life is my practice"
today's model...RCH
tomorrow's... BCHLife is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Half a CH is close as it gets.
Torque wrench substitute, tighten it til it breaks then back it off half a turn.
Joe H
And was it Mike Smith "Better than plumb"?
no, joe.. more like
.."plumb as i can see with these eyes...
hey, Jim....come over here son, and tell what the bubble says !"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"A chop box with a puter attchment and a feed table that cuts in incriments smaller than"
Those already exist in the truss and wall panel industry. Some even have ink jet printers that put a label on the board telling you where it goes.
Trouble is, they're too expensive for practical use in the field. And they're accurate ONLY if they're calibrated correctly.Affluence trivializes, excessive affluence trivializes to the absurd. [Dren Geer]
"...1/8" is not a stretch. So why not go for a little more?"
Because it wastes time and money.
Once you get beyond a certain point, you're just wasting time. And time is money in the construction business.
I'm all for higher standards in the construction industry in general. But you're talking about crossing a line into being ridiculous.
All these guys with six pack abs, and I'm the only one with a keg.