How did (do) you learn what you know?
How did you learn what you know about construction? Tradesmen, ‘GC’s’, and the rest of you.
How do you continue to learn (or do you)?
I’m fasinated by how slow old techniques die and how construction practices evolve. Homebuilding seems like the ‘last’ of the ‘apprentice’ careers even though apprentice programs have pretty much dissolved.
What brings this to my mind is a recent string of presentations I’ve been doing at vocational technical schools. I’ve been to half dozen schools and after my presentation to a class I get a chance to talk to the teachers. And it’s scary that the teachers are learning as much as the kids are from my presentation. The teachers are mostly guys from the field who turned in toolbelts for chalkboards – and their knowledge base was developed (and ended) in 1975 or ’85. SO those kids will be building the same way my grandfather did despite the tremendous changes in available products and techniques.
I did not learn from working on crews. I mostly learned by dismantling old buildings. I read magazines and looked at old books. So I perpetuated the classic methods for the first half of my career. I asked questions of guys I worked with and met like “why do you do it that way?” And the answers weren’t convincing – they obviously didn’t know or never thought about it – they just did it because it was the ‘way I learned.’
As magazines in the 80’s like FHB and VT Builder / New England Builder (now JLC) brought new ideas and different thinking to the forefront, I started trying new stuff and tried ‘inventing’ my own methods. Some worked – some didn’t. And now I’m always looking for ‘better ways’ of doing things – be it materials, methods or tools.
MG
Edited 11/20/2004 9:37 am ET by MIKE GUERTIN
Replies
I originally learned from 2 old-fashioned carpenters- my dad and my grandfather. The first couple of years were a trial for all 3 of us, before I realized that they actually did have something to teach me.
I also learned from all the remodeling/repair work we did. It was pretty easy to see what work and what didn't.
I'm still learning. I subscribe to FHB and JLC, and I hang out here. Sometimes its a bit of a jump in faith to try new stuff, but there's so much new materials and equipment out there that to not try would be a shame.
I learn from reading here and at JLC.
I learned at first from watching the other guys I worked with and talking and listening.
I learned a lot more by doing repairs and making discoveries while tearing things apart. "This failed in this way, so that is obviously not the right way to deal with that situation" or "This leaked because this flashings was left out..."
I also learn by challenges and thinking things through. once or twice a year, I have to do something I have never seen before, and have to research and invent a method. That's the fun part of this.
Part of my inner bearings lie in wanting to know...
I would have made a good detective, because I hate not knowing an answer once a question has taken a grip in my head. I tend to focus almost solely on it until I know ...so I do the research to find out.
Another is in the way i was raised, made me somewhat of a perfectionist, so I am constantly trying to improve methods and leep looking for better ways.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Mike, No formal education. 6 weeks of wood/ 6 weeks of metal in HS. After college
"you've got a saw, wanna help me build a store"
Dismantled barns to salvage the wood for use and resale.
Learned framing in the late 70's from a very good carpenter.
Most learning came as a result of remodels, taking it apart....learning how it was put together. Some book study, some indirect apprenticeship. Questions and answers.
So, like you suggest, all inititial knowledge was gathered from old school, old methods. With print, the internet and trade associations, new methods and material are possible to pick up information on.
I kick myself for never investing the time to learn in an ordered apprenticeship or hell, even a trade school. Picking it up as we went along was certainly the hard way to go. 33 yrs of knowledge, could have ingested that in 33 months of proper schooling. Might be something now instead of an old guy with a bit of knowledge.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Mike,
I learned from my grandfather who wasn't a carp by trade but often bought, sold and fixed up all his houses.
Then I worked up at the Woodstock Repertory Theater helping a carp build stage props at 17 years old....later hitched out to the Berkeley Hills in California and worked with another carp building a photography studio.....hitched back to NY and worked for an "aluminum" siding guy delivering materials so I got to see all the different crews at work and spoke with all the supply guys as well as the different crews. Ended up doing aluminum and vinyl siding for three years as well as roofing.
Moved to the foothills of Virginia and worked on a hillbilly crew that brought me in the back of their pickup to Charlottesville everyday where I was the grunt and brunt (of all jokes being from NY). Learned a lot there.
Went to work for a company called "Disaster Master" that did disaster contracting from fire to water damage...that really taught me a lot bout' construction.
Then went out on my own and learned from my mistakes as I still do.
BE well
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
In the early 90's I thought maybe I'd get my teaching credentials. The first few months of the teacher education program I attended focussed on "me, as a learner" trying to get each of us to ask the very same questions you seem to be asking, Mike - "how DID I learn?", "what methodology worked? "what didn't?"
Anyway, it was a real eye opener for me. We did a BUNCH of reading and discussing of educational theory, some of it rang true, some of it didn't. But after a while I realized that the stuff that rang true with me had a thread running through it, a certain attitude about life, and other people that virtually all these authors (and my best teachers/mentors) shared.
It's a complex study, for sure. And your experience will differ from mine, or piffin's, or calvin's, or pi's, or anyone else's, but here's a list I'd recommend for anyone asking the questions you're asking - great reading, if nothing else...
"The Having of Wonderful Ideas", by Eleanor Duckworth
"Deschooling Society", Ivan Illych
"Freedom to Learn", Carl Rogers
"A Life Worth Living", John Holt
"Sometimes a Shining Moment" Eliot Wiggington
The first two are short, easy to read, inspirational on a lot of levels. The next two are more serious reading, but I consider them cornerstones to my educational philosophy. The last one is a very inspiring book by one of my personal (tainted) heroes.
"How do we learn"? Great question.
What was it like working with hillbillys? You must have some great stories.MG
What was it like working with hillbillys?
be kind....I resemble that statement, even if i am in MI. <G>
Around here, I'm what's known as a "Swamp Yankee". Or at least I'm growing into one.
This is a great topic.
Remodeling is definitely a trade you learn by doing. Hopefully you've got the patience to deal with an old cantankerous bastard who smokes too much and just happens to be a master carpenter/ plumber/ sparky/ tinner/ etc.
It seems like I've learned the most stuff from that kind of guy. It's difficult to keep your mouth shut sometimes, and to pay attention when you're angry at the master, but if you learn to handle it, you really learn alot. I do not teach that way, because the younger generation that I have encountered would rather cuss me out and quit than learn a little patience.
I have had two young men in the last year or so that have given up too soon. I think they were raised to think that proficiency, money and respect were going to happen in a couple of months. I started them at the beginning, showing them how to paint, a relatively simple skill, and progressed to installing cabinets, tile, and anything else we needed to do that day. They seemed to think that they were going to become lead carpenters after being laborers on a project or two.
Recently I was blessed with two fellows who are from Louisianna and Alabama, and work harder than any two guys I've ever met. They are respectful and courteous and know how to work. I think most importantly they are willing to learn.
I think also that you need to read alot of books on the subject. I have a 4x8 foot bookcase overstuffed with construction and woodworking books that have supplied me with many solutions over the years.
A few of my favourites: Audel manuals, Technical Drawing, Blueprint Reading and Estimating, A Treatise on Stairbuilding and Handrailing (a reprint of an old book), Jim Tolpin's Finish Carpenter's Manual, Bob Syvanen's Carpentry and Interior Finish, anf of course Gary Katz Doorhanger's Handbook.
Also, Marlow's Fine Furniture for the Amateur Cabinetmaker, and Bryant's The Traditional Furniture Maker are very good.
Have a nice weekend everybody. rg
Informal apprenticeship with an old Italian master cabinetmaker ( Ebonistiere) who taught me how to think .........................
On a hill by the harbour
I can't remember when I learned to think but it must have been in the mid 80's after I had a few years swinging a hammer under my belt. I do see a lot of workers who don't, won't or can't think. I guess that is the biggest hurdle.
That is a fact!
I apprentised in the trades under my Grandfather, and later my uncle who was a GC. They, along with my father, taught me how to work hard but they didn't really teach me how to think. Whatever else schools or mentors teach, they really need to teach critical thinking as the number one priority.
I've always had a deep curiousity about how things work. I tore my sister's bike apart with a pair of chanelocks and a hammer when I was 4 because I wanted to see how it worked. I learned some good lessons from that incedent and some painful ones too. That curiousity just drives me nuts sometimes. It gets me involved in too many things at once, way too many.
I've also had the gift, or the curse depending on how you look at it, of always believing I was capable of things I was nowhere near qualified to do. My life has been one knee-deep-in-it incident after another. I seem to learn best that way I just never seem to learn not to do it again. LOL!
Combining all of that with a voracious appetite for reading and learning and that's how I developed, and continue to develop, my skills. This site is how I feed that appetite most of the time these days, but books, magazines and videos still play an important role.
Your post rings really true for me. A natural curiosity, a thirst for knowledge and a love of reading instilled when I was a kid. I was one of those pesky "why" young'uns. Asking questions and observation has taught plenty, too. Got me in over my head more than once, but it also challenges one to rise up to the occasion. The "I can do it" attitude seems to prevail over the fear of failure...sometimes with good results (:
I think back to maybe 4 or 5 years old, and remember taking apart a clock or a blender. No idea what I would find, and not always able to reassemble, but just wanted to see how things worked.
One trait that seems common to any good mechanic, carpenter, technician etc. is the desire and aptitude to understand what they're doing. Not just a cause and effect thing, but a more global conceptual view. If one intuitively "gets" how the system is supposed to work, the troubleshooting, building, repairing is a logical progression with a predictable result. Seems like a sort of "universal truth" for someone to be proficient in their chosen field.
Great thread.
<?xml:namespace /><o:p>PJ</o:p>
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<o:p> Whatever you can do or dream you can,</o:p>
<o:p>Begin it</o:p>
<o:p>Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Goethe</o:p>
I think thats one of the problems I had with my dad when I first started- always wanted to know why we were doing something "this way" and why we couldn't do it "that way".
His usual response was either "I'm the boss and you'll do it how I tell you" or "we've always done it this way".
After awhile, he actually started listening to me and explaining the reasoning behind certain techniques.
Awhile after that, he started listening to my ideas and sometimes used them.
He was a great carpenter, its just that he sometimes had troubles explaining himself.
Shep, its not uncommon to find old carpenters that are doing things but they don't really know the reason why. This is especially true in this age when different products have come down the pipeline and the guys are still building like their grandpas did. The old guys pass on their techniques, but sometimes the techniques has become obsolete, yet no one notices because no one really understood the "whys".
Thats why I said earlier to someone....it's okay to learn all the conventional teachings...but you have to challenge everything and think it out for yourself.
When I was an apprentice, I used to tell my mentor "don't tell me how to do it, just tell me what you want done as the finished product". I couldn't ever understand him becaue he'd be telling me to cut 12" blocks and nail them to some 1x material...instead of telling me to build a 12" brick rack. For me, just be consistent with terms and tell me what you want....I'll figure out the questions to ask you....
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue.
Can you remove this "eppilogue" from the bottom of your post's?
I must read this 10 times Allready. Wasted energy.
Do it for me. yourcarpenterfriendino
Thanks.
Edited 11/20/2004 11:14 pm ET by YCFriend
What eppilogue?
I can't remove my boogerin warning. Sorry, I'm trying to warn newbies not to listen to me because I'm a hack.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I just correct my spelling on epiloge/eppilogue. In Greek is epilogos.
OK. I'm a newbie to and I'm reading your thread about" wasted time and materials" while I'm wasting my energy on your "epilogo".
And not by choise. It's just ..there.
Back to the Mike's question.
Hi Mike. i just want to add something here. Learning is a never ending quest that can only be achive if we're ready to let go what we learn.
See you guys.
YCF Dino
"don't tell me how to do it, just tell me what you want done"
That's pretty much how our working relationship changed.
When my dad realized that , although my path might be different, the end results were the same, he started relaxing a bit and trusting me more.
I started reading FHB early on, and would want to try out some of the stuff I'd read. After a while, he would actually defer to me on some things.
I wish he was still around to see how I turned out.
"its not uncommon to find old carpenters that are doing things but they don't really know the reason why. This is especially true in this age when different products have come down the pipeline and the guys are still building like their grandpas did. The old guys pass on their techniques, but sometimes the techniques has become obsolete, yet no one notices because no one really understood the "whys"." This is what I was pondering when I initially posted my question. I wondered how many people still learn techniques without the reasons. I wonder how many people question the rational behind methods. MG
Long ago and Far away in an ancient Land...
As I was growing up My dad remodeled our entire house one room at a time.
I would mostly watch because he was a perfectionist.
But I would satisfy my urge by building Forts in the woods probably a dozen or so over the years.
I liked to draw planes and tanks and ships at my desk tucked into the closet in my room.
Built an Air force of WWII aircraft models
In school I excelled in math and science so I was steered towards Engineering.
3 yrs. at Clarkson College learning to drink and toke and that Mechanical engineering bored me.
Took a year off and worked at a gas station.
Talk about a motivator!!
Went back to school at SUNY ESF and majored in Wood Products Engineering with a building construction emphasis.
Learned the properties of wood, structural design, soil mechanics, Drafting, Creative problem solving, adhesives, manufacturing, project management.
Came out "a Jack of all trades, master of none"
They told me I was worth 30K/year in the construction business.
I said " Nobody in const. is gonna hire me for squat without any experience"
So I found a laborer/apprentice job and got my hands dirty.
Fell in love with the stuff
I paid attention to any one who was doing any thing that I couldn't do and learned How.
after about 1-1/2 years into it I discovered FHB mag (actually bought a FWW first!)
subscribed in 1985 to both.
found JLC a year or so after and signed up.
read/paid attention/tried/learned/read some more /tried some more ............
Worked on remodeling, framing, Timberframing, commercial. finish carpentry, New home building and ended up back in remodeling.
Worked for some smart guys and some dumb ones, BS artists, arseholes, nice guys, full-of-themselves guys, you name it!
Worked with some great craftsman and unique personalities.
Tried to learn from everyone, even if it was to never be like them.
In my 20+ yrs. I have never been unemployed for more than 3 days in a row.
Moved from Syracuse to Rochester to syr. to Maine to Elmira.
In the last 4-5 years this has become my favorite off site learning place.
Great resource of talent here.
also a good place to rant and BS and just relate to Kindred spirits.
Also like to come here to puff up guys like Buck and Blue ect.
they need some ego massaging ENAT!:D
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
I was at Clarkson - fall semester of '70
When you?Most of what I remember that year was not from in the classroom
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've found the vast majority of my learning has come through reading (I am a voracious reader), observation (often of my own mistakes) and mentors, real life and online (thanks to the many of you who have been kind with your advice). As a related aside, the most valuable potential learning I think is that which I missed through the inattention of youth. My late Uncle Paul was the ship's carpenter on the last commercial square rigged sailing ship. My Grandfather owned a shipyard in Germany, and as Paul was his oldest son, he wanted him to learn the business from the ground up and signed him up as an apprentice. After his apprenticeship was completed, one of his tasks was to oversee the final assembly of a steamship that was too large to get out of the harbor and was shipped by rail in pieces to what was then Manchuria, where he had to hire and supervise a huge crew with no language training. The guy literally had a life like Indiana Jones. After the war started he left Germany, and settled in Uruguay I think it was, where he built a General Store, selling things like bullets and supplies to the natives. He met his future wife there and they drove to the US on a motorcycle. To see the photos he had of life as a carpenter on a square rigger rounding Cape Horn, and coming to the US on a motorcycle I realize all too late how much I could have learned from him if I had made the effort to listen. The good thing is I try all that much harder now not to repeat the mistake. Richard Pryor had a line about learning from listening to old people... "you don't get to be old being no fool." ;)
paul .. i had a job in the west indies in '64.. on a Windjammer cruise ship.. 165' staysail schooner, the Yankee Clipper
my first captain was in his late '60's... Captain Carlson, if i remember,
he served as skipper of one of the last lumber schooners aroung the Horn..
here's a pic of me as a cocky 19 year-old bosun
View Image
i have some great books ( half pictures , half text ) of the last of the breed..
one in particular.. a Time-Life book.." The Windjammers" is excellent..
these 5 masted 300' ships were all steel , including the 200' masts..
they competed with, and beat, the steamers of their day.. WWI was pretty much their swan song..
the most famous is the Sea Addler, a german raider disguised as a Norwegian trader..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/21/2004 6:43 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike--
Unless there was a change of registry, I sent my folks on that same Yankee Clipper for a week for their 35th wedding anniversary. Windjammer Barefoot Cruises, Capt. Mike Burke, I think. Something like that; too long ago to be sure anymore. Wasn't 'Smith' anyway, LOL.
This woulda been in the mid 70s. What I do remember is that he had re-rigged the schooners with his own invention, a sort of upside-down stays'l rigged above and aft of standard clubbed stays'l flying from the next mast forward. The result was an equivalent amount of sail between each two masts to what a big gaffer would carry when flying a fisherman tops'l.
Dad and Mum were in their mid 50s when I had this hairbrained idea of an anniversary present; all of the rest of the passengers were pre-yuppies in their mid 20s out for a lark.
My old man still managed to sink the Guinness faster 'n' anybody and win the 'boat race'....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
dino... we sailed her from Miami to Fajardo, PR i think we made about 12 knots on one run..
that fisherman got used then.. but most of the time we'd sail without it.. i made three cruises on the Bahama's run.. and about two of the West Indies,,widnward / leeward..
lot's of 150 proof rum swizzles... and weevils in the breadMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
in '63 I got a job with some Amish stone masons. Man, I had fun. Later, went to a boarding school in New Lebanon, NY. Situated in the mother of all Shaker villages. Got to work on some of the buildings. I was a major slacker, but something about those buildings must have stuck with me. Later, after flunking out of the 4th college, I tried building my own house. Man, I had to get a carpentry job to figure that out. Met a guy who knew a guy that needed some carpenter help, best thing that ever happened to me. '82. John Beard. He said check out this mag...FHB. Made me realize what was out there...I've been a real student ever since...I am proud to be part of a truley honorable profession, well, at least until I'm called up in front of a grand jury<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Great photo Mike! There was a famous line of German ships known as the P Line, all their ships started with the letter P. My uncle sailed on the Pamir I believe. In an odd twist of fate, my Grandfather's shipyard subsequently scrapped it, and my Dad still has the capt's logs as well as his brass spyglass... must've been a sight to see one of those things under full sail....
paul... Pamir struck a chord..
so i googled on it.. sure enough...
lot's of stuff on the Pamir.....
http://johnkeyes.com/a/0786712333-the-last-time-around-cape-horn-the-historic-1949-voyage-of-the-windjammer-pamir.htmlMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
fall 78-1980
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
I have a deal with my crew...... They all have to think & I have to listen....
On a hill by the harbour
This is what I was pondering when I initially posted my question. I wondered how many people still learn techniques without the reasons. I wonder how many people question the rational behind methods.
Mike, I think it's widespread and you can even see evidence of it around here.
If you look closely, you'll see a lot of tradesmen rebut things I say based on pure emotion. They don't look at things logically. When I use logic and the conversation winds down, I'm constantly accused of being a hack, not caring, always looking for a "cheap" solution etc. That's not unusual though...because I get the same thing in the real world. I've taken heat for using nail guns, not putting cripples on the ends of headers, not putting bridging in, using staples, not using sawzalls, tucking the siding BEHIND corner trim boards, not lapping top plates, not putting ladders under every non bearing partition, etc., etc., etc,!
All of the techniques I use are sensible, solid ideas and many of them save a great deal of wasted wood...wood that should be used wisely...not just because grampa did it that way.
Too many rough framers are taught by "seat of the pants" type teachers, who don't technically understand the parts, nor their true definition, nor their true purpose. For instance, if you asked 100 carpenters what the real function of studs are in a non bearing wall, many would be inclined to still think in terms of holding up the top plates when the real answer is to stiffen the wall covering. If you asked the same group to explain the function of the bottom plate, few would be able to answer that it's a "horizontal framing member that aligns the studs". Only a few would also understand that a bottom plate is not a necessary component of a wall, it can be eliminated entirely and the structure would not lose any of it's sturdiness. But anytime you start eliminating parts, you're labeled as a "hack", which is why I wear that badge so willingly!
Just food for thought and a little banter....
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Your list reads like one of my jobs. (overlay cornerboards, cripple reduction, bridging-not). And I've been called a hack both to my face and in letters to editors of magazines. Yes - a badge for the courage to buck the structural statis-quo.Do you install code minimum headers (double 2x4 on first floor of two story home on openings 3' or less)? I have code officials pulling out their books - unless they know me, then they leave me alone.Did you develop your own techniques by questioning why we do what we do or did you pick them up from other 'hacks'?MG
Mike, around here in the Metro Detroit area, they've been framing as efficently as possible (as much as their brains would let them) for several generations. But...remember, they all learned the craft from their granddaddys and most people are loathe to change.
Most/all of the building systems and techniques that I was taught were originally developed during the post WWII building boom. They all involved hand pounding everything and almost all the material on the job was good old fashioned wood. Trusses were unheard of.
As you could imagine, everything changed. the materials changed, but the carpenters still used the old systems. Nailing changed, but the techniques and procedures remained the same. House styles changed, but the crews still built like they were putting together 28 x 40 ranches. (The old guys used to put up the 28 x 40's in one day...all conventional...with 5 man crews.)
In the late 70,s I took over as foreman and basically started challenging every method, simply because I was "The Man" and I could. I started looking at how wasteful some things were and basically stopped doing a lot of the stuff. I always reasoned that if I omit some stuff and it doesn't pass inspection, I could always go back and put it in.
You mentioned double 2x4 headers...and I see that as twice as much as what it actually needed. On 99% of non bearing headers, I use only one 2x4 on the flat. I have installed these type of headers as long as 16'. I usually put the cripples on the 16' oc layout, but on small ones, I've actually eliminated ALL of them. I usually put two cripples now on all door headers...just so I don't have to discuss the merits or demirits of having one or less. I'd just not rather deal with the questions, although I KNOW that we really don't need any on a 3' door!
Most of my systems are a collection, or an evolution.....and I'm still learning.
blue
PS I don't back jam garage doors any more either. Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You've been pulling wood out of walls longer than I've been building! You were way way way ahead of your time. Yeah, on non bearing interior and exterior walls I skip headers. Just king studs and s flat header. I skip all crips on anything less than 24" parrallel (rough sill to bottom plate or flat header to top plate). Sheathing and drywall can handle the spans without a problem. Only crips I plug in are on wide spans where there are mulled windows.And on bearing exterior walls where there are wide mulled windows I still use 2x4 headers. Gone up to 12' wide. I just order the windows single rather than premulled and jack down between units (we call them 'pocket mulls').I love this subject - mimimalist framing.MG
mimimalist framing?!!! I couldn't say it or spell it...I had to cut and paste!
Well, at least I know what I am...I'm a mimimalist framer! That sounds so much better than HACK! Hehehehehe
I will admit that I've never used a double 2x4 header in any bearing wall that carried joist, or trusses. I've used them in bay window situations that carried only the small bay roof over.
The smallest I'd ever conside using is 2x6....simply because I'm not there to deal with the inspections and the builders don't understand, nor want to push the envelope. Instead of consulting charts, they'd just agree with the inspector to change them, then we'd be in the middle with a re-inspection coming tomorrow!
I also agree that cripples should be eliminated on narrow openings if the horizontal framing members are 24" oc or less...but not many people out there would see it our way. It's funny because now they all think the rough sill should support the window, but they don't understand that by doing so, they are setting themselves up for uneven shrinkage problems that could later affect the window operation. In fact, most of the tract builders WON'T let us install the vinyl windows sitting tight to the sill because of their service history.
I quit lapping plates back in 1989. I had to be prodded by an older carpenter, but I relented with the warning "Okay, don't cut them, but if they have to be lapped after inspection, you're going to have to come back and do it on your own time." It passed and I never lapped another one. We do have to put on metal splice plates on bearing connections if the drywall backing doesn't lap though.
mimimalist framing.....that has such a nice ring to it.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
seemed worthy of a post - I didn't blame you directly.
MGhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=50520.1
Mike,
I suspect I have learned anything I know the hard way.
as a kid I was strongly discouraged from doing any work with my hands other than cutting the grass---lol
both parents were college educated and determined that I would be also----on my dime.
however genetics may be involved here---my great grandpa owned a lumber yard in PA, and trained all 5 of his sons as carpenters----my dad has told me many times that his father and all his uncles could nail equally well left or right handed-----great grandpa would see that they were stuck nailing lath and flooring etc. in a corner ,or in a closet or up in some nook or cranny where they would have to use their weakest arm. after great grandpa yard went bust in PA-----all 6 of them moved to Akron ,Ohio which was a boomtown in those days----population expanding from 69,000 to about 210,000 in the 1910-1920 decade. *0 odd years later I am still keeping some of those same houses they must have built cobbled together. LOL
I went to college---hated it. After I got out---neither the carpenters union ,nor the sheet metal workers union would take me( early to mid 80's)
so I got a job working for an industrial hard chrome plater. I learned nothing about building trades there----but I learned all you need to know about hot, dirty,hard work.
I was making about $4.50 an hour and my wife and I scraped up a down payment to buy a house land contract( $1500 down on $4.50/hour is a lot of scraping) I couldn't afford to pay anybody to fix up the house===so I did it myself.
My father in law ( a carpenter)showed me a few things---I still have a few of his tools,My brother in law( maintenance mechanic in a skyscraper )showed me a few things----but mostly I figured it out myself.
the neighbors would see me do something to my house----and then ask me to do the same thing to theirs. I did that at night,weekends etc. while working 50-55 hours a week in the chrome shop.
Eventually I was doing better with the side work than I was doing in the chrome shop----so I went out on my own.
I will say that constantly re-inventing the wheel and teaching yourself every thing is the hard way to learn. About 10 years ago,one winter I spent 2-3 months working on a framing crew----but that is the only time I have ever collected a paycheck in construction-----every thing else has been self employment.
I would greatly prefer to have worked some years for an old timer----if only to learn the WRONG way of doing things----but instead I figured it out myself.
Taking apart old houses and putting them back together.
I am not really interested in building new things----much more interested in patching up those old houses built back in the 1920's
BTW----yesterday my 15 year old son came home from school which he HATES------and saw me putting the finishing touches on a little cherry end table I am building. He saw the 14"x14" piece of slate I have inset in the table top and said " that is WAY cool"-----------so maybe we have the tradesman of the future here( If I can tear him away from his guitars. LOL )
good luck all Stephen
Interresting story Steve.
Tim Mooney
Blue and Mike G., our minimalist friends, do you leave a few more sticks, jacks and cripples in a house that will be trimmed out with wide materials? I'm thinking the trim carps might be able to do an easier and better job of it if there's a bit more meat around the windows and doors...
If I know what trim will be installed (usually) I nail blocks on edge at the top corners of ROs, at the base and two points along the kings. I make a 'story pole' and put blocks the same place on all opg. That way I can find where to nail (or whoever follows trimming).Great way to use up scrap blocks, and can still slip insulation on the backside of blocks in exterior walls. When you figure that even with a king/jack you only get 3" nailing. Some of the casings I've installed are 4 1/2" to 5". The blocks give better nailing.Some people would claim that blocking like this will take extra time but I've timed and it only took 60 to 90 minutes for a house with 40 doors and windows. The key to any process is making it efficient.mg
Sounds like you were born 'critical thinking' or maybe call it curiosity that drives you learning. I remember when I was 4 or 5 taking apart a wind-up Big Bend clock to see how it worked. I think I only used a hammer.
How to think. There's the key indeed.
I was about to put in a reply with the usual trade school and on the job experience route when I read your post. You're right - no amount of training and experience can replace the ability to think clearly. I've seen plenty of guys who claimed to have ten years' experience, but their lack of analytical ability and adaptability meant that all they really had was one year's experience - ten times over.
So I go back to high school, grade 12, when I needed an extra course that wouldn't be too demanding but would give me that state-examined credit I needed. The answer was General Studies, a subject generally regarded by students as a gimme course, one you couldn't fail, and wouldn't suck up time you needed to be putting into math or chemistry study. I went to a small private school and to my surprise, General Studies was taught by the school's headmaster, a figure of near-mythic stature and awe to us kids.
It was supposed to be about current affairs and essay and exam writing techniques, but he made it so much more. From my view 25 years on, I can see that he took it as a personal responsibility to send us kids out into the world with an understanding of clear thinking and logic. Sure we read newspapers and wrote essays, but it was afterward where the real learning took place. Essays were dissected and examined: was the line of argument clear and logical? Were there multiple concepts or just one? Were the different angles kept organized? What were the facts and how were they supported? And so it went.
Looking back it was the most valuable experience of my entire formal education, including engineering at university that followed. Everything else could have been learnt unassisted from books, but Mr Chapman taught me to think.
WallyLignum est bonum.
You just tripped another swith about learning. I learn the absolute most when I set out to teach. About the only thing I enjoy more than learning is helping others learn what I've discovered.
I generally stick to teaching things I know pretty well, but I have, at times, tried to teach subjects as I learned them and it was a real motivator. I believe that the key to success in life is helping others be successful in theirs.
I believe there are two types of teachers. The kind that wants to tell you what they know so they can impress you, and the kind that wants to help you understand what they've learned so the two of you can learn the unknowns together. Every single solitary person on this earth has the capacity to be a mentor, even as they are being mentored, if they aspire to teach with the second mind set.
I try to surround myself with those kind of teachers and emulate them every chance I get. In reality, that's probably the primary way I've learned the majority of the best things I know. All the other teaching and learning aids are just tools to solidify the bonds of those relationships.
Mostly from an older hillbilly remodeller out East who smoked a lot and often said to himself "Hell yeah, we can do that!".
He started me off painting and we took it from there. Probably the best teacher I ever had: He'd show ('see where this sagged...', or 'you want the mud to feel like this...') , he'd explain why - I do better work when I know why, even though that annoys most bosses -, then he'd demonstrate how.
He often found a way to relate the job at hand to my senses: see, listen, feel.Then I'd have a go at it, he'd make a few observations and walk away, only to come back in 5-15 minutes to 'see how it's going' and often to add a bit more information. If he thought I had the hang of it, he'd be off doing something else for awhile, then back again to give me the info I was then ready to assimilate. He had a great sense of timing.
Amazing how I never felt overwhelmed or demeaned. This man was like that with everyone - he'd leave you feeling confident, ready to receive his comments or criticism, and eager to do better. There were a few times when I f'd up, and he never lost his cool. An amazing teacher who valued and understood the importance of learning and keeping the brain going. I guess it helped that I love to learn, and can retain skills over time. It was a two-way street, as there were a few times when he was stumped (or pretended to be?) and we'd solve the puzzle together. I knew I'd proven myself the first time he dropped the materials at 'my' site and drove off to another job for the day. Fun.
I've also got a lot of great Taunton - and other - books and many of the FHB mags between No. 82 and 154. I seldom if ever buy FHB anymore. This forum rocks and I'm grateful to you all for the advice received here.
I also enjoy talking shop with a couple other independent remodellers in town. We're not afraid of asking for each other's advice, or referring jobs to each other, which cuts down on the bs posturing and increases our learning and earnings.
Thanks for the post Mike.
It's rare to find a boss like the one you learned from. As you note, he was a true teacher - his sense of timing must have been uncanny, knowing just how much info to deliver to you and how long it would take to assimilate.MG
I can't remember when I learned to think but it must have been in the mid 80's after I had a few years swinging a hammer under my belt. I do see a lot of workers who don't, won't or can't think. I guess that is the biggest hurdle.
I agree Mike. Most carpenters fall into the trade as a last resort to make a decent living without having a formal education. Many of us were not good students and many of us have poor social skills, as well as social ills...like drug dependency, alcoholism, etc. It is frustrating to work year after year along side people who dont take their carreer seriously, yet want you to share your wisdom.
Ironically, one of the ways that apprentices learned the theory of construction was after hours when the crews historically drank thier beer. When I started, EVERY crew that I saw drank beer together every day. In fact, my Uncle warned me...''if you don't drink with the crew, they won't accept you".
Also...quite ironically...I had my "awakening" during a beer drinking stint in a bar. The foreman was explaining why it was important to preframe the overhangs perfectly straight...because after we mounted it on the wall, it would retain it's shape..good or bad (we used to build the soffits complete...then stand it up on the wall and nail it into the frieze). After that I realized the importance of keeping everything parallel and perpindicular...something that I still adhere to rather than using levels and plumbsticks.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I was a slacker in through high school. Never even took shop class. I didn't learn math until I started framing (now I'm pretty good). Couldn't write until I started bidding contracts and needed proposals. Didn't read until I needed to know how to do something and there was no one to ask......I flunked out of college 3x before deciding to stick with construction (the summer job and fail safe fall back position when dropping out mid semister...)I never worked on a drinking crew so never experienced the 'bar room classroom' but I can imagine it happening regularly.MG
Mike ...as to your question about workin' with hillbillies. They were for real hillbillies too. I absolutly loved them and they loved me.Real talented builders. Half or more couldnt read yet the ones that couldnt read understood plans.
And yeh...I do have tonssss of stories but I hate having my post trunicated...lol.
I think I'm the only out of towner that go the tour of all their stills in the mtns. Getting caught with a still in Nelson county can mean a long jail time and having your farm taken away....so I knew they loved having me around.
The way that happened (having them love me) was when me and a bunch a city folk moved to Arrington off rt 29 tween Lynchburg and Charlottesville. We tried starting a Free School which was a real joke...but it was all with noble and loving intention.
After I rechinked and restored my 1847 log cabin which was about 40x30 2 stories.....I decieded I wanted to know the community further than our farm which consisted of about 20 of us Long Islanders so.....I ventured out and met Wesley Shelton....his older brother Robert and younger brother who's name I forget. Robert showed me his tobacco farm (he and his DW and kids lived in a trailer on their farm.He had a cpl of braided tobacco ropes hangin in his kitchen where he'd pull a chunk off to chew....Course he had to have me try it....and of course I felt so inclined....first I started hullucinating then I trhew my guts up as he and his DW were belly aching laughing....I don't think I ever took acid that strong....lol....anyway we quickly became friends...friends of his entire family.
One day the younger Shelton comes on our farm and supposidly smoked some weed with one of us....All the Sheltons get together bearing shotguns and drive their pickups onto Woody's (he bought the place we were living on...Woody taught teachers how to teach at NYU previously).
Woody calls everyone into the main house and everyone was scared to death with good reason...So of course I say that I'm going out to "jaw" lol with them. Woody and his wife Judy said I was nuts.So I walk out there and start talking to Jim Shelton...Jim asks me if I wanna try his shot gun...I really didnt want to but just to be friendly I said OK....I pointed up into the trees high up on a hill and pulled the trigger....musta knocked me back twenty feet and left the whole right side of my body aching and black and blue for weeks..They were laughing their azzes off but I became even closer to them..we spoke and they left everyone on the farm alone.
I told them that this long haired hippie from NY was sick of the farm and wanted to move back home but they liked me too much and needed some more laughs so.....they drove me miles up top a mtn in their rusty 4 wheel drive (which almost didnt make that terrain) in Lovingston where they introduced me to Bessie Terry a 72 year old lady that lived there her whole life. She lived there alone now.....When we got to the tip top of the mtn...you look down into a sort of hollow and see four little log cabins. a barn and a milk cow with a bell around her neck (Jersey).Absolutly breathtaking...the setting, the views and Bessie was a real trip...I could hardley understand her being that her accent was so thick...anyway, I moved into one of the cabins after leaving Woody's farm in order to help Bessie. spent almost a year up there (I'll try and enclose a picture here of my oldest daughter Niko in front of my cabin and Bessie Niko and the cat in front of a real grand old tree).....anyway....as I said....I hate to get trunicated so I'll stop here. Funny to look atthe picures I'm attaching now and Niko's website of her wedding a few months ago....big differance lol http://WWW.NIKOANDCALEB.COM)
Oh, Bessie made the best peach Brandy on earth...all her own peaches covered in layers of sugar, layers of peaches and god knows what else...buried it in oak casks in the ground and when she dug it up it almost burnt the hairs off my tongue like the lightening her sons ran through their stills two times.
Should I go into how my first tipi blew off the mtn during a storm (her barn roof as well) and she said to me, Andy, thats why people live in houses.I wanted to ring her neck...lol.Be trunicatedandy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 11/21/2004 10:16 am ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
My wife keeps looking at me funny as I'm laughing. Keeps asking what I'm "doing over there" Your story is GREAT. I think you should put together a collection of stories to print - that way you won't get trunicated.MG
If only I could copy the movie I lived thats tatooed in my eyelids....
I could keep going but I think some may think I'm making this stuff up....such as....lolMy crew forman was the head of a local band...lead singer and lead guitar player.
After we stop at the ABC store on Friday so we can be blind drunk in the back of his pickup on the 45 min ride home....he asks me if I wanna go to the square dance he plays at each Friday night at the Appomatex (sp?) Court House...you heard of that place right?
I say , Of Course.
So his wife and him pick me up and we all go together...pulls out some lightening from the glove and even before we got there I was lit!Anyway....the room was a big room with long bridge tables and bridge table chairs...really fancy...lol.The parking lot has fifty billion pickups in it and every woman is a Dolly Pardon wannabe with their hair teased to death...tons of makeup and the stinkiest perfume on the planet.
Now you have to remember I'm about 19 -20yrs old with seriously long hair that looked like Janis Joplin hair...all staticy and out there...beard...no mustach (the Abe Lincoln look).So I'm sittin' on my chair next to someone else on our crew and the forman says, "this songs dedicated to our friend Andy".
I forget the name of the song but the lyrics are somthing like, "we don't smoke Marijuana, we don't take LSD"...etc etc,,,,was meant to be a funny C&W song.The way you ask a woman to dance is you come up behind them and put your hand out...ok ok....so I see some big fat hairy arm stretched out from behind me.....I turn around and I think he ran for the hills and my crew were laughing their azzes off...he thought I was a woman from behind.Course the good thing ( I think) was everyone needed to show off their handmade items to me out in the parking lot (lightenin').
Every five minutes the guys are out there chuggin either brandy or lightenin' and spittin' tobbaca and had to have me try it.Our forfathers should only know what happens atthat courthouse.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OKIE FROM MUSKOGEE
We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
We don't take our trips on LSD
We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street;
We like livin' right, and bein' free.
I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all
We don't make a party out of lovin';
We like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.
And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.
Leather boots are still in style for manly footwear;
Beads and Roman sandals won't be seen.
Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
And the kids here still respect the college dean.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom
See....I wasnt makin that shid up....thanks bro...gonna do a bowl, drop a tab and re=read that for old times sake...see ya when ever bro
Thanks again...what a flash from the past reading those lyrics.
Be well bro
andy
NAmaste'The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You absolutly must write an autobio. Even if you self publish.
Hi Mike.
I was lucky to start from painting that need to learn plastering and taping that some times need to install drywall and some carpentry here and there.
Been the last tradesman on line you have to deal with all kind's of problem's. Your job is not done until all other's before you 're done. And your job is not done right if all other's 're done wrong.
I was force to spackle, drywall,trim just to get the painting done ...and get pay. At first I was doing it to save time for me. If the Job was 1-2 hour's away, It was better for me to spend few extra minute's to save another day.
In few year's I was rebuilding houses and few more year's historical building's. Two things help me out. Reading anything related to construction material's and understanding the space where the material's have to be installed.
The first door I try to install, It cost me $200.00.(after I lost a whole day, I hire a carpenter) The first countertop $300.00 extra in material's. Mistakes that become lesson's and now my full time job. Making sure that other's don't do what I done wrong.
In synopsis: I was forced to learn and make mistakes by trying to do it right but doing it wrong and learn how not to do it wrong by doing what you think is right until you done it wrong...Because...only if you do it wrong you know that is wrong and the right way is to...... learn,
something similar the Great Thomas Edison said.
If I now of 2000 way's .... Something like that.
How do you like the EZ Smart? One of the claim's is Antidumb. What I was trying to say was . .. Antidinodumb.
see you Mike. Good Post.
YCF Dino
Dino!hey I sent in the EZ Smark Guide review to Chris Green and Justin Fink last month. Not sure when they'll plug it into the schedule. MG
Mike, interesing question.
I served a formal apprenticeship with the Detroit Union carpenters. That entailed going to school every other week for the day, instead of working. I got paid to attend school for the day.
The carpenter school covered all aspects of carpentry covered by their collective bargaining agreement. That meant that I had classes in many areas of construction..commercial, residential, industrial. It included things like suspended ceilings (theres many different kinds....any one ever do a z-bar suspended ceiling?...we did in class), concrete forming, residential framing, roof framing, stair building (rough and finish), architectural drafting, construction math, OSHA safety, First Aid, etc, etc, etc.
Even though I had a lot of classtime, I learned most by: doing, reading, being shown onsite, and generally just grabbing the bull by the horns. I was young, brash, and had the attitude "if he can do it...so can I". The classroom stuff was important, but was not as in depth as I would have liked it to be. It was dumbed down for the masses and I found myself sitting in the lunchroom smoking cigarettes many times and the Pythagorean theory was explained for the umpteeth time....I did pick up, usually, at least one great tidbit per topic, per quarter...so I did learn some important things from the school
I was a foreman running a rough crew before I graduated from the school, building "custom homes" in Bloomfield Hills...one of the richest neighborhoods in Michigan.
Experience is always the best teacher...especially good experiences.
It doen'st surprise me that the teachers that you encountered layed down their toolbelts between 75 and 85. That was the era of the second great depression and it cleared out the carpenter base here in Michigan. After that, all the great carpenters had either left the trade, or left the state. All that was left was the blind leading the blind. Carpentry practices suffered badly during the rebound of the mid eighties and it was at this time that the major changes in building systems started to happen. It took a solid two generations for our skill to resurface and today I'm seeing a lot more sensible carpentry crews....but the late 80's and 90's were brutal.
Good topic.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Great topic!!
I grew up having both of my parents as teachers in k-12. Dad taught Ag education and shop classes. I guess my first interests were there. I started framing at 19 and picked it up quickly. The guy that I learned the most from was a prick to work for, but one heck of a framer.
I learned a lot from books, especially Larry Haun's.
I started my business 3 yrs ago, way too early, but this is how I was able to start learning more about the things I want to do.
10 years in the business, 3 on my own. I feel I learned the most from basic problem solving skills and a desire to study things. I was constantly taking the plans home for the night. I can relate when someone says they pretended to know how and figured it out as they went. The tricky part is not letting anyone know that you are learning as ya go!ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Hook, I always took the plans home too. I used to ride with the boss and study them one hour both ways.
Reading the plans will teach you a lot.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You make a great point about how the ranks of construction pros were culled in the late 70's / early 80's (about the time I put on a toolbelt professionally). I remember everyone struggling and a lot of older guys getting out. Around here a lot of guys went into union submarine building jobs. I was young so didn't need much $; they had families and I can see school teaching being a steady income for them. I still haven't seen the sensible crews around here. At least not the majority. There are some good crews but even those guys are my age or older. MG
Back about '80 and '81, I think a third of the license plates at the big jobs in Colorado had Michigan plates on them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
OTJ - On The Job.
Got hired on as a carpenters helper when I was 20 with a bunch of framers and 30 years later, here I am. Never had any trade schooling although they did offer it in my highschool back in '69.
I learned from a bunch of old guys who learned from a bunch of old guys who learned from a bunch.......
Ed.
Les, you already possess enough to spec a house. What you need most right now is financial knowledge.b
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
People - my pop and grand-dads growing up
Reading. All the time. Books, mags, articles, here, JLC
Attitude. I don't know it all, never will. So try.
Reps. Some of these guys are doing the sales thing at the yard or the supply outlet because they did it for 20 years, they loved it, they were great at it, and the bones just gave out. Talk about a source for advice.
Study pretty much everything I pass. I walk into your house, I'm not going to notice the painting on the wall. First thing I look at is how the door is hung, how the casing fits, if there's gaps in the base. How good is the finish.
Practice. Not AS much anymore, but still some. When I wanted to build a piece of furniture, and I knew I couldn't do it, I'd break up all the joinery into things I'd work on first. Spare time, I'd go out to the shop and burn through scraps until I knew I could get it to do what I wanted it to. Then I'd build the thing.
Heck, subs. Things I know how to do, sometimes I still sub them. For whatever reason. Watch those guys and shut the heck up. Most of the time it isn't what you'd have done, and that's the point, for better or worse. It's all food for thought. A lot of little "tricks" in trades can be had by just opening your eyes and shutting the jaw. I'd say painting and drywall are two that have gotten somewhere that way. Watching a vet run masking - something as stupid as how he held the tape and put it down, cut my masking time easily more than half. And it's more accurate.
Mistakes. Humbling, but a fact of life.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Good topic, Mike.
I'm fond of telling my customers, 'I made all my mistakes in my own place....' Which is a somewhat comic way of acknowledging that I've always learned by doing. I hear Kevin's plaint, too: being 'knee-deep' in something I confidently blarneyed myself into is not an unknown feeling around here, LOL.
But there's another aspect to this....
The basics my old man taught me...but he wasn't a carpenter, nor a plumber, nor an electrician, nor a tile-setter, nor a roofer--he was a mechanical engineer, a PE, with a thirst for knowing how things worked and how to make them work better. So I learned from him how to mix Spackle and to tape all those little blue nail heads; how to cut a 2x4 with a crosscut saw (he never, till the day he died, ever broke down and bought a circ; used his table saw if necessary...and that Delta-Rockwell saw is in my shop right now still in service at 50-some years old). He taught me how to wire running BX, putting in anti-shorts and all that in the days before NMD was permitted where we lived. He taught me how to sweat copper pipe using a huge, brass, gasoline-powered blow torch (which is also around here somewhere) that belonged to his father. And he taught me how to nail with a 16-oz claw hammer, showing me how to blunt the tips of nails to avoid splitting the wood when nailing near the end....
He didn't teach me how to frame; nobody ever taught him...but he understood structure as well or better than the guys that wrote the code books, and would just invent his own when he needed to. I don't have his formal engineering education...but I learned how structure works from watching him, and from having him beat common sense into my head pretty much all through my school days in spite of my stubborness.
There's times I'm up on a roof or a frame someplace, and I wish he were still alive to see the much-delayed fruit of his labours....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
My father was ####mechanical engineer too. Worked his way up from the machine shop floor at big company. Went on to manage design teams that included PhD's who didn't have a sense of what the end user of the machine tools and surface grinders they designed would do with them.He was no carpenter but like your father, I imagine, could figure out anything and had the confidence to try anything. I still don't know how to operate most of the tools and equipment he accumulated. Unfortunately only a few cut wood. Barely a day goes by without wishing he were still around so I could have him help me solve some problem (or at least answer my math questions for cutting an irregular pitch roof - he could always determine the wall height differentials so the facias and ridges worked out....)
Hi Mike
Good topic you started here.
I learned from a few sources. Number one, I learned the confidence to build a house on my own from my Dad. He came to Canada with a fifty dollar bill, a cardboard suitcase and his mechanics tools in 1953. He worked hard and honest, most of his life selfemployed. He built a few houses the old fashioned way and used to tell me that you could learn something from everyone you meet. He also told me to read books because you can learn alot from them. He passed away in 1988 and if he could see the houses I built and the tools I have now he would flip with excitement!
The technical information I learned to do what I do came from high school, working and reading everything I could get my hands on. I can honestly say that since the first FHB I picked up in 1990 I learned alot from the many magazines along the way. Also the 30, 6 hour tapes of Bob Vila and Hometime helped out alot too.
I submited an email to the editors last winter and one of the comments I made was that the next time I make the 14 hour drive to Boston to see the Bruins I will swing down to Rhode Island to bring you and your buddy Rick coffee because I have read so many of your articles I feel l like I know you guys! I toured one of the Newport Mansions, is that near you guys? 'Keep up the good work,
Greetings from Onaping, Ontario
Cliffy
mike .... was one of those schools Coventry Voc. ? Scott Levitt ?..
great teacher..
anyways... i strated working summers for a great guy , who was self -taught.. not much of carpenter..or builder. but he got it done.. his company he started in '47..is still going..
then i picked up some basic engineering and surveying in the army..
so when i got out , i went to Roger Williams for a year or so in Const. Tech...
and basic architectural design..
worked heavy and highway for Campanella, first as field engineer, then as supt.
picked up a lot of estimating and mgmnt skills, a lot of site development and field engineering..
when they went bellyup in '73 i went to work for a buddy in home building and remodeling, running his crews and learning carpentry and home building on the job.. building on past skills.. learning from my mistakes..
as you know... repairing & remodeling in New England is an education in lots of construction techniques... taking things apart and putting them back together gives you a sense of what works and what doesn't work
i've seen a quantum leap in materials... i miss our great douglas fir we used to build with.. but our windows, roofing, engineered components, Pressure Treated lumber, paints and siding make for better homes
went out on my own in '75... joined RI Builders.. became very active for a couple years.. learned a lot from those guys and attending seminars they sponsored..
in '76 my partner started Solar Homes and he built the first solar home in RI.. we became leaders in Solar space heating and energy conservation..that lasted until about '80.. by '84 - '85.. Solar was dead for us
slow progress from then until about '97... when things started to come together for me.... gave up my drawing board and got into CAD with Chief Architect.. our design /build and reputation of good work helped a lot
really started learning a lot from guys right here on BT in about '99.. the people i have met here have really challenged me to strive for better design and better techniques..
I have to say, this has been a great inspiration to me and i have learned a lot more here than i have given back...
peer- to- peer is a powerful tool for learning.. long live BT
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yes, Mr Levitt is one of the best teachers I've seen. He's not from the class of 75 - 85 old grey hair teachers. He brings a lot of new stuff into the classroom. His students asked me about building curved stairs (he uses FHB magazine to inspire the kids). I'm expecting a phone call in the next few weeks to go over and help them layout the curved stairs.The teachers like Scott Levitt with energy and excitement really inspire the students. But some of the teachers aren't into it and the kids loose interest. It's a shame. I better stop there before I go on that rant...MG
Rick lives just across the bridges from Newport. I live 10 minutes from him. In RI it's a long distance from Newport to my house (25 min) but there again, in a state that's 35 minutes by 25 minutes a 15 minute drive is a long way.MG
I'm in my 40th year and - enjoying the work and the customers - brings new ideas almost every day to it. Like many who contributed here I seemed to have it "in my blood" from a very young age - I always got a bang out of making something.
I loved geometry & math and shop in HS which helps a lot on the job.
Being in an area that doesn't support specialties helped me exercise in several trades. I had a coach in electrical, drywall, painting and ceramic tile. I had co workers in concrete and carpentry, and old guys that knew how to make work fun.
I was a troubleshooter for new houses early on, which helped me learn what doesn't hold up.
I hate looking for something, which helped me learn to organize stuff.
I also like to eat, which also helped me learn even when I didn't feel like learning.
I started out as a laborer sweeping floors and trying to find a place to hide from the foreman. Along the way I have worked doing vinal siding, replacement windows, sheetrock and for probably 10 different contractors. Always trying to keep my eyes open and pay attention to people that I work for and with. I have picked up alot of very useful tips by working with all these different carpenters. I wonder about the kids coming out of the vacational schools, I have worked with a few of them and it takes awhile to get them away from what their teachers might have showed them about building techniques. Alot can be said about working your way up from the ground floor.
Learn from every mistake.
Some of it have known so long it seems one can be "born" with it.
Carpentry was mostly from Pop, uncles, their adult friends as a child, in post teen years, books and doing.
The few college courses I really learned something from that probably would have taken much longer just reading a text were thermodynamics, stress of materials, machine design, and circuit design.
Most adult education is from one-of-kind solving other peoples problems and correcting their mistakes.
In industry, there is this thing called ISO90001, basically a 'dumb it down to the lowest level and everything by specific proceedures" Can't learn like that.
when there are industry audits on this stuff and asked about where you keep your proceedure files, the answer is that the stuff our group does is what ends up writting proceedures.
On the job training here,too. My brother-in-law set me up with his framing crew as a laborer. I had very little experience but I wanted to be a carpenter. It didn't take long [ hated humping plywood!] before the boss let me up on 'deck' with the guys.Little did he know,I was to bug the crap out of him for years. How do you do this...how'd you come up with that? When they went to lunch,I'd eat real quick and practice walking top plates[usually fell]. So here I am 25yrs,many crews and companies later landed in this 'custom home/re-model'company where I'm the youngest [44].Think I'll stay here awhile. I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
I fall into the "rest of you" category.
At fifteen, I got my first job doing jobsite cleanup for the engineering and construction company that my Dad worked for (he was the company's land surveyor for 38 years). I had already taken four years of wood shop in jr. high and high school, and it was a logical place to work. I spent five summers there, in between school, got my degree in civil engineering, and went back to work there as project engineer.
After I left there, I went to work for another design/build company. What I learned there could best be described as "What NOT To Do", in terms of client relations, construction techniques and employee treatment. I was also a project engineer there, but also somewhat of a jack-of-all-trades - the computer guy, the surveyor, and occasionally, the labor. One commercial job we had, the concrete sub bailed on us on the day we were supposed to form and pour footings. Well, I was already on the job doing the layout work, and when I got done with layout, I spent the rest of the day placing rebar and shoveling and floating crete.
I've picked up a lot from guys I have worked with, also from guys that have been subs for me and the companies I've worked for, and I stay as current as I can by reading any trade books I can get my hands on, FHB, Professional Builder mag for a while, as well as a number of different trade magazines. I have built a few outbuildings for my parents and myself, remodeled the house I live in now, and trying to act as a good GC for my own new house. I would much rather be a woodworker than a contractor, but I try to learn as much as I can all the time. This site has proven to be a great source of info.
i'm not exactly sure. Three years ago I was a truck driver. I had worked with my dad a little in the past and my grandfather was a cabinet maker. I've read alot and done alot but I think its something you have to have in you. I know plenty of people that could "book learn" every technique we know but could never execute any of it.
my Dad worked FT as a railroad foreman ... and ran a FT Kitchen and Bath remodeling company ... I started sweeping up on job sites when I was 8 yrs old. Learned most from him. Not sure where he learned most of his stuff ... but he spent lotsa time working with my Mom's Dad ... who was a custom hardwood floor installer.
I failed wood shop in HS, while also doing more indepth remodeling than the teacher could do ... slight bit of personality conflict there .... learned nothing new in shop class ... went to college ... poured concrete ... went back to college ... and worked as a salesman for a coupla different places ...
when I decided at age 30 to get back into remodeling ... I put my newly married self thru trade school with a class of 18 year olds ... lived 2 hrs away from home for a year and a half. Learned everything about framing and exterior work that I didn't have the chance to learn while doing interiors with Dad's K&B jobs while growing up.
I've worked mostly for and by myself ... have worked as an employee with mainly one company for about 2 years ... tried to learn as much from the other guys there as possible ... or at least look at new ways of doing the same thing ...
I have a good buddy that's one of the best carps I've ever worked around ... who to this day we still call each other on the cell if we learn something new that day ... or call if we're stumped.
I read any and all trade mags and books .... and tool catalogs ...
and read and learn from this site among others ....
Funny thing about trade school ... my Dad always says I went to learn the right way to do things as opposed to the way he taught me ... ended up learning to trust him a bit more ... turned out he was right more often than not. Now me and him also trade tips back and forth on a regular basis ...
I also learned I have a good instinct for these things and usually it's best to just trust myself and give it a careful try. Looking back, I really learned tons working on those old remodels my Dad would get us involved in ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Funny to see how many here had fathers who were MEs. Mine was too, and growing up there wasn't much he couldn't do, but when he built something out of wood it was never nailed together - lags at least, bolts were better, and I always thought that a little weird.
Saw a bricklayer building a fireplace as a junior in HS, and decided that was for me. Started laboring/apprenticing/reading as a senior. First guy I worked with (he was a second generation bricklayer/plasterer) I'd only talked to over the phone, and first day on the job (it was '74) both realized maybe we should have met first. I had pretty long hair, even by the standards of those days, and he had a flattop and was also the police chief of his small town. Had to make sure the ashtray in my car was always closed....
Even though we saw things differently, and I only stayed with him for less than 2 years, I kept calling him with questions for years afterwards. He died a few years ago and I penned a little story about him. Sent it to a Famous HomeBuilding mag 'cause it seemed to me to fit one of their regular sections. They were courteous but declined it.
Even though not bricklaying now, still read a lot about construction in general, and I've always missed it.
reading, reading, and more reading. I have seen so much work being done improperly by so called "master carpenters" that I have lost all trust in most of what any of the old timers can teach me. I listen to them, of course, and ask them all the questions I can, but never trust completely, not unless it makes sense to me, or I can get the same info from others or from reading.
Speaking of... you should see the absurd comment made by hammer, under Worst advances.... suggesting trade books as the downfall of carpentry, hah!
Its true Bookworm...you really can't trust oldtimers unless they can explain why something is done and it really must make sense.
When they start stammering and saying..."well...that's how I was taught.." you better re-vevaluate what they just showed you.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I took all the shop classes and drafting classes (I had two full years of drafting in high school) I could take when I was in high school and junior high. I was lucky that I had a couple of good teachers. I was always ready to attempt to build anything.
I worked on a concrete crew for a few months. Then I started Building Trades School at an Iowa Community College. I traded the remodeling of an old farm house for four years rent in same house.
After trade school I worked for various construction companies and then started into self employment with a partner (buddy from trade school). We got a contract to "throw up" semi pre fabed FHA boxes. We learned from each other and from both successes and flops. I think I learned to hate working for nothing with no instruction from anyone! ; )
I read FHB almost from the first issue. I did a lot of reading. Studied passive solar design. Worked for a few others and with quite a few others. Learned at every step.
In the past two years I designed and built another passive solar, this time for DW and I.
Even after quite a few years in various construction capacities, I have learned a lot from the folks on this forum since I found the place almost two years ago.
If I wasn't learning something I'd be bored to death.
You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
I bought a house built by the late and not especially lamented M.R. McDonald. That's an education in itself.
I'm 19, so I'm just starting this process of learning what I know. And the more I learn, the more I know that I don't know much. When I was 17, I was pretty much as aimless as most boys my age. I had helped do various cunstruction jobs, but nothing really caught my eye. I wanted to become a computer programmer, or something like that. My parents were, of course, worried about what I was going to do in life. One day, I was in the library, and I saw Fine Woodworking on the shelf. It had an interesting picture of a highboy on the front, and I was curious. I took some home, and I was hooked. I couldn't believe the things people could do with their hands. It is really weird, it was like a dam burst and all of a sudden, I was reading voraciously about woodworking. I started fooling around on our scroll saw. My parents were thrilled. I read anything I could get my hands about furniture. I saved an scraped to buy tools. My Dad also was very generous in helping me out. I spent approx. $4000 that year on tools. I wanted to go into woodworking full time, but there wasn't anyone in our area I could work with. I puttered around the workshop, making lot's of really horrible furniture, but improving with each design. then my dad asked me if I wanted to lay hardwood and do trim in two houses he was having built on his property. (He isn't a builder, and he's just learning about the buyilding trades.) I figured I would be able to do it, and through lot's of trial and error, I got them done. I was slow, but I was committed to doing a good job. So, now, at 19, and with no formal experience, I'm trying to get my carpentry business going. I am working in the house of the assistant manager of our small town Rona store, and I hope to get more work from that. Of course, my youth is a major obstacle, but when people see that I know what I'm talking about, and my excellent references, they feel better. But the way I've learned what I know is almost exclusively from Taunton. When I started getting going in the housebuilding trade, Homebuilding has been a tremendous resource fore me. And due no small part to your articles, Mike. Thanks
Wow... No one could ask for a higher compliment. Better stand back when Mike reads this, I'm sure his buttons will burst ;)
It took me a long time to fall in love with wood. After a couple years working under hoods of cars I knew that wasn't for me and in-an-out of college for 7 years assured me I wasn't the deskjob type. I just kept falling back into homebuilding. You are lucky. To know what you like at 19 is great. Depending on where you live you can expect that there'll be at least 10 more years of work in construction. If you move more towards woodcraft specifically - that will likely follow the same horizon workwise.If I was starting out again today I'd do a couple things differently. I would learn about business stuff. A good part of what you do is 'business' related rather than woodworking or homebuilding [marketing, sales, financial management....]. I would aim high in my talents (for years I cut corners to do things faster and compete on price). Once I focused on high quality I found I got more well paying clients, I made more money and I had more fun. If you plan to do any trim carpentry (and the skills will translate to woodworking somewhat) and you haven't already - buy Gary Katz's DVD's Mastering the Mitersaw Pt 1 and Pt 2. I learned a lot from them. Within the next 3 or 4 years there should be a new series of instructional DVDs from a number of skilled guys that will keep you way ahead of other homebuilders and woodworkers in your area.MG
Mike,
I learned the basics in Tech School '83-'84. During that time I discovered FHB and subscribed. Most of what I have learned has come from reading, and asking other peoples opinions about what works, and what doesn't work for them. And asking why it does or doesn't. And asking at the lumber yard what other people are doing, and how it works for them. And asking subs what they see other contractors doing.
I was not formally taught by the contractors I worked for, but I was willing to try just about anything that I had read about. Quite often I was sent to do jobs by myself, so I had to take my base knowledge, and figure out what would work for individual jobs.
Currently I still learn from reading FHB, JLC, Remodeling, QR, Kit. and Bath Design News, lots of books, and this forum.
Your advise to the previous poster is dead on. I would definately learn a lot more about the business end, if I would be able to do it over. Though I doubt any boss would show you how to run a business, keep collecting little tidbits of info on how others are doing it. When you begin to run your own show, you will already have some of the pieces to the puzzle, and not have to re-invent the whole puzzle.
Bowz
- Remodeling and QR are great ways to learn some business stuff specific to our industry, aren't they.If you like those magazines you might look into Professional Remodeler, Professional Builder, Builder, Custom Home, Tech Home and more.I read like 8/month. Actually, I read 2 per month and every time I fly I read 80lbs of back issues, tear out pages and trash the chafe.MG
Mike,
I use the tear and toss method of saving information from the magazines too. Got a little file box that the articles get stuffed in, and brought out to read when things slow down. JLC and FHB I save the whole thing however.
A couple other scources that I learn from include being a member of the local Home Builders Association, and Remodelers Council. Mostly from the networking opportunities they provide. Asking those who are doing it, what works for them.
Also, sometimes the lumberyard will have a contractors breakfast, and have product demonstartions, and Q&A sesions with factory reps.
There are also seminars, put on in co-operation with the state builders association.
In regards to your first post about the teachers not updating their knowledge. A few years back I taught part-time for a year in the residential construction program at the local tech school. The cirriculum was developed with input from the local HBA, and had a steering commitee that included builders from the area.
If the course content is not being updated as the years pass, the steering commitee may need to give some direction to the program.
Also, realize that even in a full-time course, I think a student is going to come out with a basic knowledge, and still need some direction as to how a particular builder wants things done. What we attempted to deliver was a worker trained in the safe operation of tools, with an understanding of the common building components, the process of how those components go together, and some idea of why they go together like that.
In the school environment, we had a fairly wide spectrum of ability, and needed to take that into account. In other words some of the students could have finished the course in 1/3 the time needed, and others were not going to go much farther than being a laborer. My point being that possibly the instructors you refered to, don't need to know what you were presenting, because it is not going to be applicable in their environment.
Just a thought
Bowz
Mike
I've always said that no matter what field you go in...if youre the owner of a biz, bussiness classes are a must no matter how boring.
Even if you study on your own through books.
Theres this author that really intrigued me. His last name is Hall and the book is called "Jump Start Your Brain". A real fun read. Check him out, you won't be sorry.
Your Friend AndyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Man, I jump started my brain once. Don't want to try that again....I will check it out - Thanks.
Mike
Its a very good book for people that want to start thinking about biz in an unconventional (outta the box) way. The guy was top on the list for Proctor and Gambel before he went out on his own doing things unconventionally (no wonder I dig him).
check it out. I'm sure he'll make you laugh and laughing works for everyone.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM