How do I flash this righ this time…
After 8 years, my front door unit (3/0 with 1/0 sidelites) was already ready for replacement. When I got it out I discovered that water has been leaking underneath it and there was unseen rot in the frame too. The aluminum pan (put down with steel nails) was like swiss cheese. I redid the flashing with Vycor and replaced the door. The question is how to finish the door to avoid leaks going forward/
The door has fypon (or similar) fluted trim on the sides and a cornice over the top. The cornice is like a big hollow ogee molding that seems designed to direct water behind it. As near as I can tell, the flashing system for the door was heavily dependent on a Tyvek tape joint between the housewrap and aluminum angle. Looking at the picture you cansee the tape had come unstuck in several places and wasn’t that well applied to begin with. The sides were similar. The L was not caulked to the door frame
Suggestions on a better approach? Pictures below.
Pete
Replies
Here's a photo of a top corner.
oh man.... storm door & a roof ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Suggestions on a better approach?
- use porticos and overhangs to protect doors
- don't use Tyvek
- don't use big hollow Fypon moldings
- don't use ANY Fypon moldings
- flash over head trim and form drip
Jeff
You need a flashing made that goes up behind the siding and under the tyvek and extends out to the front face of the cornice and then paint it to match.
I second what Mike Smith said and it needs an entry roof over it would be best.
Have a sheet metal guy make up a flashing to fit over that molding and under the siding and wrap.
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I'd run it something like the pic. Should be able to bend it up at the scene of the crime with some 2x4s and a little hammering.
2 things to be sure to not miss are the lips extending beyond the case/trim for the Cap (red) and the Flash ~90° and bent down slightly to prevent the water from running back under.
2nd item of note is the Drip Lip Groove routed into the bottom of the trim capping the crown.
Ok, 3 things to not miss, 3rd being the angle of the cap above the crown is not flat, it's set so water will run off and away from the house and not level at all.
and 4th: the topmost flat flashing needs to be under the wrap.
Edited 12/8/2008 7:15 am ET by john7g
You're about ready to go pro with SU aren't you. Nice work.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks, Grant. Getting paid for SU... in my dreams.
Thanks for all the replies. Eliminating the trim and porticos are not really options, but flashing over the cornice looks good.As you can see from the photo, the sides use the same "system". I thought about vycor spanning the gap, overlapping the Aluminum L and under the siding, with the L caulked to the door frame. Any comments?Pete
Edited 12/8/2008 12:26 pm ET by PeteBradley
That would work.
For a while.
The vycor would break down at some point since it's gonna be somewhat exposed and the caulk will fail at some point.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
OK, alternatives?Pete
Metal as John7g suggested.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Actually that makes more sense, just make a new L that extends from the door frame back behind the siding on each side. Still gotta be caulked at the door, but at least that's in an obvious and accessible place.Edit: I just realize part of the sentence in my follow-up question was deleted. I fixed it to reflect the fact that I was asking about the sides now. I'm already there on the treatment of the cornice.Pete
Edited 12/8/2008 12:28 pm ET by PeteBradley
OK, I see. What you're describing is probably the best alternative for the sides.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Edited 12/8/2008 1:20 pm ET by seeyou
Looking at this again, I realize I hadn't thought about how to handle the returns at the end of the molding. I'm considering a 1/2" fypon spacer board behind the molding as shown. Does this make sense? My drawings are nowhere here as good as yours, but here's a sketch.Pete
Edited 12/10/2008 11:09 am ET by PeteBradley
Yes, that makes sense. I can't remember the right term but table wants to come to mind for what you're calling the spacer. Just be sure that your J-channel is above all of this. In your first cross-section pic you posted you had it behind and below the crown & cap, might've been an oversight in the drawing or might've been a bad reality.
I'm assuming you're going to have columns under the cornice at either side. The green flashing needs to drain out on the top of those and I'd even conisder laying a tall version of the green flashing behind and beneath the columns, if that is indeed what you're planning. Both the green & red flashing need to extend beyond the pieces below them. In the pic the green extends far past the column beneath for clarity. I'd run it past an 1/8" or so, maybe more.
The cap above the crown is going to need a tapered filler if you just modify standard stock. I'd consider ripping it all out of one peice witha 15° angle on the top so you have less joints for water intrusion, less to protect. Prime & paint any wood before installing then fill/caulk & paint again after install. Besure to leave drain holes for any of the kickout flashings.
7g
Actually what I'm suggesting is a little different. In order to match the other 11 cornices* on the same side of the house, I don't want the "table" to be visible below the return of the cornice. The idea was that the vertical J channel would extend up behind the return so the return would have siding and J behind it. The crosshatched area of the table didn't show up so well in the last sketch, here's a better one.Edit: I realize that creates a new gap in the siding at the end of the cap flashing. Not sure I'm there yet.There were actually 2 J channels in the original approach. I believe the second was just a spacer.Pete*yeah, the others will have to be checked too, but they're detailed differently and they may not be good but I think they're better.
got any pictures of what the details look like before you took them a part or of the others you've yet to get to?
The sketch in post #1 and photo in post #2 tell the tale. Looking at that photo, the cornice spanned the gap between the aluminum L and the top J channel. The loose piece of J shown acted as a spacer keeping the cornice about 1/2" away from the wrap. Any wind driven rain that got between the top J and the cornice had to be drained out to the sides by the L. The columns were applied similarly, creating a 1/2" wide passage down the sides. This was already cheesy, but failures in the tape and cuts in the wrap allowed water to run behind the wrap and under the door frame. The others are all windows and are completely different. I haven't looked to closely but they appear to be screwed through 3 1/2" vinyl casing. Whether that's ok is a question for another day. What I need to do is get the door buttoned back up.Pete
Edited 12/10/2008 5:05 pm ET by PeteBradley
Am I getting close with the pic? the cornice sits proud of the vinly and was set proud of all the courses of vinyl siding?
If the pic is close the problem will be the big honking hole that's behind the crown. You'd have to make a tight filler and WP it so good that it would never leak since you'll never be able to inspect/maintain it after it was installed. I don't think this is a good idea if this is indeed the idea.
Awesome drawings!Yes, they're all proud of the siding. Perhaps the intent is that they're just decoration applied over a completed system.What you drew is similar to what I was proposing. I was hoping there was a way to get that look and controlling water.Pete
You're going to need a good drain plain behind what you've already removed that extends further to the side under the vinyl you haven't yet removed. The drain plane will be under all of you spacers and extend down to the bottom of the spacers/columns and the bottom j-channel.
Flat Flashings draining into the kickout flashings need to be under the header spacer that spans the opening.
You'll need to pull/loosen siding above the door to get the flat flashings and the Cap flashing that goes on top of the cornice.
The returned cornice is going to be the problem for you. With it hanging out over the siding, there's nothing sealing the gaps that are inherently there. You could probably fashion something on the table saw to fill the gap but it needs to made of one of the plastics available and not wood since it'll be somewhat exposed with no ability to maintain it. Thing to remember with any of the plastics is that they expand in heat so you have to take that into consideration when fabricating the filler to go behind there.
There's a simpler way to do the backing for the Crown Cornice. Cut a back that matches the profile of the cornice and set the crown on that. See the pic.
Easy to make that, but then how would it meet the vinyl w/o letting in water? Or is this another variation on assuming water will get in and creating a drain plane?Pete
Edited 12/12/2008 9:23 pm ET by PeteBradley
Ove the vinyl like the other plan. On top of the first spacer. It goes over the vinyl if you can afford moving the cornice out or incorporating it into the cornice. Lemme see if I can arrange a final pic with that variant... -attcahed
it would still have to be made of one of the plastics since you'll still have the mtc issues on the back of it, but might be easier to build than the 1st (head fogged by a cold/sinus infect.) idea.
I see. I've got all the pieces so weather permitting it'll all go back together tomorrow. Thanks for all your help!Pete
send some pics when you're done.
The J-channel on the siding acts as a gutter, it's gotta be on the outside of all that stuff.
Maybe I'm missing it.
But if you keep the cornice clear of the siding I guess you could run it that way but the cap becoems an issue then as well.
Maybe take a good look at all the others and come up with a plan appropriate to all of them.