How do you rate this RFH equipment??
Greetings, all –
Been head-scratching about heat for the next project. Did a web search and came across this site …
This guy has developed a whole family of web sites that offers RFH and related materials, including pre-plumbed boilers, manifolds, etc. He uses a Trinity model boiler by NY Thermal, a Canadian outfit. The boiler is at …
http://www.nythermal.com/Products/boilers/gas/trinity.htm
… and he sells a tubing called Mr. Pex, at …
http://www.radiantdirect.com/page4.html
And here’s the kicker … he promotes the idea of not using any pans, metal or plastic, in his staple-up systems. He says (I e-mailed him) that they used an infra-red scanner to do comparisons in Alaska. On one of his other sites …
www.radiantdesigninstitute.com
… he says, “The metal pans are supposed to spread the heat out more evenly; all the testing we have done proves this to be untrue …”
Now being HVAC impaired, I can’t render a learned opinion of this. I can say that his web sites are extensive, and he appears to be very knowledgeable. So can anyone out there voice another opinion about this idea, and these products? On the face of it, this seems like a good way to go … if it works.
There is a whole bunch of reading to do at these sites; you may want to check some of it out for yourselves for future jobs.
Thanks!
Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Replies
Bruce, these people had a page in the new FHB.
http://www.radiantec.com/
Looks like they have the whole deal from planning to sales.
Joe H
Well Joe, close but no cigar!
You directed me to "radiantec", and I was inquiring about "radiantdirect." Same idea, only different. But thanks for the link anyway.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
I have purchased from Radientec , they have been in bizz for a long time. I never heard of radiandirect. But that does not mean that they are not reputable. One of the things that Radiantec claims is that the O2 barrier is not needed if you design your system to eliminate iron,steel . they also like the idea of waterheater rathe rthan a boiler.
I just looked at the site . They use pexA tube so they can't be all bad. from what I read it looks like a reputable outfit. I might try some of his stuff.
Thanks for your opinion(s). I do hope someone pipes up with some experience with the boiler this guy is using. As my skills run towards the design and carpentry end of the business, I like the idea of being able to unpack a pre-plumbed boiler and manifold, hang them on the wall, and fire the thing up. 'Course, in the real world, I know there's going to be a tiny bit more than that to accomplish, as well as pulling a mile plus of tubing, but his approach and (apparent) good support makes it sound doable.
What say you about this idea of doing staple-up with no pans? Providing you insulate under the tubing, it actually makes some sense to me. If radiant heat is truly radiant, when you introduce the pan, you're depending on conduction to get the heat into the subfloor, not radiation. Why not let radiant energy do the job? Where else is the heat energy gonna go, if not into the floor? I plan on adding some insulation to all the floors for sound atttenuation anyway.
Makes me think about my wife, if she's had the oven fired up in the winter. When she's done, she opens the oven door to "let the heat out." Says I, "So what happens to the heat if you don't open the door?" I'm thinking it's gonna heat the house anyway, and actually in a more even, controlled manner, as it slowly radiates from the oven. Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
The tubing looks fine.
I cant comment on the Trinity.
The Al plates? They do aid heat transfer, and they aid in minimizing heat striping. Do you need them? It's likely you may not. Will your floor be less comfortable because you left them out? It's likely you'll never notice. Striping is most noticeable on tile. You won't feel it on hardwood...assuming it's there to begin with. Al plates may be required around the perimeter of the room (4' in from exterior walls) if the room is heavily glazed...a sunroom, for instance.
On all staple-ups, I friction fit 1/2" foil-faced plyiso ( I rip the sheets to wiidth on a table saw) up between the joists and against the staples that hold up the tubing (or against the bottom of the upper flange if usiing TJIs). In the basement (first floor platform) I'd add an additional layer of FG batts, R-19, tucked up against the bottom of the polyiso. I add FG or cells to the upper floors as well. Depends.
Manifolds, pumps, t-stats, outdoor resets, thermocouples and mixing valves aren't too tough. Control boxes...just keep the wiring diagram handy.
TEKMAR controllers and 4-way mixing valves, and TACO pumps.
After having read about 70 pages of his web sites, I'd have to say your comments about whether to use the pans or not seem to bear out what he says.
I'd like to hear someone say, "That flat out won't work because ...", and them give me their reasoning, if that argument is really there.
And I appreciate the fact that there are plenty of high quality components out there that will do the job, supplied by others. But I'm not even gonna pretend to be a plumber on a system like this. I'm willing to pay for someone to put this unit together and stick it in a box and ship it to me, like these people do, and have their warranty cover its performance.
Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Edited 4/1/2003 8:21:02 AM ET by Bruce
Got another e-mail reply from Fred Seton, who operates Radiantdirect. I had inquired about more confirmation of the success of installing without pans (plates). He says they have sold or installed over 3000 similar systems with success. I'm thinking that's worth something.
Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Regarding staple up systems. I posted a message inquirying about a product called Ultra-Fin - which I have not received any replies to.
The product info is at http://www.ultra-fin.com
I am not associated with this product or company - just looking for methods and technology I'd like to use for myself. Basically, this approach is to reduce the amount of tubing, eliminate staples and hangers (using holes in joists) - and pop-rivet AL heat dissipating 'radiators' to the tubing in each joist bay. By doing this they get faster heat transfer from fewer feet of tubing - and since the tubing isn't stapled to the floor the heat *should* be quite even - since the whole joist bay has been heated and is now radiating heat to the room.
This tubing installation method would work with the other folks' bioler-room-in-a-box approach to controls and heat source.
Still requires insulation but the system seems to have some merit. I did have one reputable hydronic specialist suggest I look into the product but still trying to find someone with some hard experience.
Anxious to hear what your guys think of this. I'm personally intrigued by it.
KW
I question some of the literature on their site. I question their interpretation of the efficiencies and methds of heat transfer. A few other things as well. While they stress that the plates must remain level in the joist bay and not touch either the insulation or the subfloor, I wonder how level the plates will be after a year's worth of tubing expansion/contraction cycles. Also, I'm sure it can be worked around, but dedicating 6 inches of the depth of a joist bay to RFH doesn't appeal to me from the 'mechanicals' point of view.
Minor and not-so-minor quibbles.
I'd take a pass on using their product.
Bruce,
Don't ge me wrong...the Al plates DO work. However, it's a matter of if you need them or not for your system to meet it's MINIMUM spec'd operating requirements. Since your system will likely meet the heating requirments of the building's envelope without he use of Al plates, you likely will not need them and thus you can omit them.
Do the plates work? Yes.
Does that mean everyone needs to use them? No.
I didn't use plates in my own house's RFH system.
Re: Seton's email, it'd be interestiing to know how many systems he's SOLD with and wthout plates, and how many systems he's INSTALLED with and without plates.
I'd use PEX with an O2 barrier for all heating systems. Who knows if some change down the road might result in the system being operated as a closed system or being fired by a cast iron-type boiler.
Wasn't questioning whether they do work ... I think that's pretty much a given. But the crux is, are they required in every application? If not, it's cost and labor I can do without.
Thanks for your replies.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Radiantdirect operates on the same theory about not needing th O2 barrier if you have a non-ferrous system. Good to see that another outfit, probably better known, is saying similar. I think the tubing cost is the same either way for Radiantdirect. Given that, I'd probably go for the barrier just for giggles.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Bruce ,
the O2 barrier will make the pex hold the bends that you put in better than with out the O2 . That in it self would make it worth the extra penny or two that it would cost .
Bruce, I know it's not the same place. That was my intent, it's the whole package from one source.
Years ago there was a poster here, from Oregon or Washington I think. He posted lots of pictures of his jobs, big projects with miles of tube & mazes of pipes and valves. Pretty impressive stuff, disappeared probably 5 years ago.
Joe H