Hi all; looking for some help. 7 years ago I did a small deck for a client. For longevity, I convinced him to use composite for the decking. I milled the rails out of cedar. However, for the wrapping around the 4x4s that the rails connect to, I used white pine. We talked about treated lumber and rejected it as just too ugly. I was careful to backprime all surfaces, particularly endgrain. A painter came in after me for a good paint job. I know that white pine isn’t first class exterior wood, but was in the acceptable second class. At the time, it was still in common use for exterior trim. Now it is showing some rot and he wants it replaced. So I put in a bid to replace all the post wraps with Azek boxes and put all the rails, which are fine, back on. He wants the work, but wants me to discount it 50% because he feels it is my mistake. This is not a big job with a lot of money at stake, but I want to know if there is written standards about when my liability runs out. Any ideas? thanks.
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Has the HO maintained the white pone over the years... sealing or painting it as needed?
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Hi, it got a coat of paint 7 yrs ago when built, and the owner is now getting a painter to do the whole house, which is how he found that there was some rot. For the most part, the paint looks ok, the rot is happening underneath.
I would think that enough time had lapsed that you wouldn't be responsible.
Didn't you find out about the desire for you to pay for a portion when you qualified the customer and his project?
No, when a past client calls up with issues, I figure that I will go out without asking about money first.
it depends on your original understanding and it comes under the heading of "managing your customer's expectations"
if the customer is out to screw you, you have to have it all in writing
if it is just a case of a misunderstanding, then reasonable peole should act reasonably
7 years ago i would have said that if they wanted longevity we should use a rot resistant species, like cedar or redwood or mahogany...... or a man-made material
OR... i would have said that we might be able to get the pine trim to last , especially since we were going to backprime it and the base of our trim WOULD NOT BE IN CONTACT with the deck , so it can't wick up the water
so ... it really kinda goes back to how you sold the job and the materials... if there was an "understood warranty" that , hey.. this backpriming will take care of the problem
then yes.. the owner should have been able to rely on your expertise.....
but 7 years is a long time... i'd compromise with him and give him an honest 25%
it's fairly easy.... since you've already established the value of the replacement work
might also ask for referrals to ease the painMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Most of the rot is where the railing connects to the post, the top has a hardboard type cap, and the bottom is lifted. In '02, man-made wasn't all that common; I looked in the JLC archive and found that Azek made it to the new products column later that year, after I'd finished the job. I have been inclined to take a bit of a hit on the work, but he is intransagent that I pick up 50% of the total cost, so I may yet walk away from all this.
If he is that set on a 50%, you may be best to walk away.Because even if he agrees to say 20% off, as long as he is holding the money, he can still change his mind and how you gonna collect then? So if he has definitely made up his mind, he is out to get what HE thinks is fair for HIM One way or the other.Another point, if he had had you do this in red cedar or AZEC back then, how much more would it have cost him and his 20/20 rear-view vision? If he takes that into account as a credit in your favor, it changes the net price
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Same question as Pete. The home owner has responsibilities too.
>>"...I know that white pine isn't first class exterior wood, but was in the acceptable second class...."
And therein lies the rub. Yes, white pine is second-class for exterior work, and as a result, the builder must do everything possible to keep it in shape after he's gone.
It was back-primed and end-primed -- good. But was the installation designed such that the endgrain could never be exposed to falling water and never to sitting water?
If you left no end grain exposure, then it might not be your fault.
But here's the bigger issue. This is a former customer. A person who WILL be talking about you to his friends and acquaintences. Maybe even to the local "Gotcha-style" consumer reporter at the local television stations.
Do you want him saying good things, or bad things.
The answer to that question lies in your response to his rotten wood.
7 years is too long to be responsible. Is your car warranty that long? I would expect to make a fair profit to replace the wood. I would not discount my price. When your car needs a part after the warranty expires will you get a discount? If you discount every job you do for previous customers how will you ever stay in business?
I have exactly the same situation going right now. When I built the place 7 yrs ago, I priced all the trim, posts ,etc in pine , mahogany, and Fypon/Azek. The HO decided on pine . I took the same precations as you, and sure enough at this time there is lotsa rot. I am now going about to redo it all in Azek.
At first the HO was looking for a free ride on this, but being we discussed all the options at length 7 yrs ago via email, and I had saved all those comunications, he had to agree that it really was not my fault. Once he agreed it wasn't my fault I offered a decent discount on the work.
Simple answer, NO
Let's see, I put a cheap roof on my cabin 29 years ago (see "ten year roof". FHB Nov, 1990) and it was finally looking pretty bad last year (cr@p, one corner or the roll roofing blew off in a 90 mph storm) so I spent $400 for 20 bundles of archy shingles and $60 for another box of nail coils and flashing to redo it.
Should I sue myself for the $460? Should I have put on slate or copper originally? Well yes, if somebody else had paid the price difference <G>
Just a dumb diy here, sure glad i dont have to deal with the lazy greedy weenies some of you pro's have to deal with.
#2
built a shed for the dozer at the cabin about the same time, used peeled scrub alder as lumber as figured would do a better shed 'soon'.
Last week (first time there in a year) saw one of the 7 inch dia alder 'beams' near where the roof had been punched thru by a falling limb had rotted thru and collaped.
Dang, that sure must be somebody else's fault rather than mine for not finding and patching that hole 7 years ago, huh??
Legally you're probably not responsible, but it varies a lot state to state, and may also depend on any language in the original contract.
Morally I can't see that you're responsible either, if you told the HO at the time that pine was not a highly durable material. If you didn't tell him I still wouldn't say that you have the major responsibility, since he got 7 years of use out of what is essentially a 7-year product, and that's what he paid for.
IMO (as a HO), since it is a do-over, and since you want him as a (reasonably happy) customer, a discount in the neighborhood of 20-25% is appropriate.
It's up to you to decide how much you want to pay if he's essentially blackmailing you, threatening (explicitly or implicitly) to besmirch your reputation.
"It's up to you to decide how much you want to pay if he's essentially blackmailing you, threatening (explicitly or implicitly) to besmirch your reputation."Gee, when you simplify it like that, the decision gets easier - do I want to be blackmailed or blackballed????
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Years ago I learned while working a service shop that it never pays to skimp on materials in an effort to save them money. It only take one bite to hurt you. When I give a bid I do not give them one for a poor job, another for a medium quality job, and another for a great job. I give them one for a high quality job. The customer is not only paying for the material but also the labor. You are the expert and they are trusting you.
For years I have been making custom doors. A few years ago I did something I said that I would never do. A customer came to me wanting some doors made from poplar. Stupid me I agreed to make them. A few months later they called complaining that the doors looked terrible. They were still straight but had cracks in them. They did look awful. So I told them I would redo the doors in Honduras Mahogany but because they were getting better material they would have to paint them as they had done to the poplar doors. I replaced the doors and they are still happy about six years later. They still look good. I should have refused to build them out of poplar.
I have heard from people I have met about those doors they have now because they are happy with the way I treated them.
Up until 7-8 years ago, I was occasionally using white pine for exterior work.
A lot of the hundred year old homes I work on had white pine for that sort of thing.
But what turned me away from it was almost exactly what you describe. Another contractor had built a railing on an upper balcony ten years previous and it was suffering badly from rot.
The owner wanted me to study it carefull as IO demolished it for any signs that the previous had done something wrong.
I could not have made any criticism of his work. He backprimed and end primed and held the boxes up off the deck. There was caulk where it should be caulked and no caulk where it shouldn't be caulked.
Just last year, cargin and I here had a long thread on the subject of rot repair, as we had both just done a lot of it. ( title was something about Marvin windows and rot if you want to do a search)
Mine was much on white pine and no good explanation really of why it was rotting. I think there are many factors.
New plantation grown wood is grown and harvested for max growth and not for quality. There is more summer wood now than there once was.
We are no longer allowed to use oil paint and preservatives or lead in the paint. The govt has determined that what prevents micro-organisms from eating wood is not healthy for the environment or for those using it.
It is possible that wood handling and milling practices have changed too. If the general attitude and lack of training one sees in many industries is true of the lumber mills as competition gets more fierce and belts keep tightening and corporate heads try harder to wring more profit out of each acre, then it is easy to assume that the industry is not trying to deliver the same quality lumber they once did. I.E. a trunk might lay on the ground getting damp under the bark while bacteria grow in the soft wood a while before it is sliced. I know a guy in milling who says that pine is critical to get straight into the saw from the stump. Stuff he rejects for custom milling goes to the big mills with no hesitation.
So to some degree, the owner is right that you made a bad call, but only true in retrospect, IMO. Based on the previous century of experience, it was not a bad choice. Things are in the midst of change tho, so I get more conservative all the time. Red cedar.
Azec was fairly new to the market when you built these seven years ago, so the argument that you should have used it back then doesn't hold water IMO. It could have turned out to be just another one of those man made materials that ends up failing prematurely and then where would you be? on a post wrap that had cost him far more!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
He wants the work, but wants me to discount it 50% because he feels it is my mistake.
I would of told him "No" "Later"
Your client is unreasonable. I'd tell him to kiss it where the sun don't shine.
mike
Here is what i would do.
Explain to HO that pine has its limits and that it has lasted a reasonable amount of time in his situation and while you do not think you should be on the hook 7 years later you understand his predicament and will give him a fair price to repair it.
Mind you, however, that if you suggested pine instead of the homeowner picking it from other choices, you leave yourself in a worse position.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
My take is it depends on what you told the customer at the time you installed it. If you made it clear that pine was not a long-term deal, but he went with it to save some money at the time, it's his bad. If you told him the pine would hold up fine, it's your bad. Act accordingly.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
7 years is too long. in that period he had an obligation to maintain the product. what you describe is purely cosmetic. its not like you assembled the girder from white pine
Offer to fix the rotted areas for free. a couple of hours and a few pine boards would not break ya. no other industry offers a warrantee like that
at this point he knows the pine fix is temporary. if he wants the posts wrapped in azek then bid it full price and stand your ground
and if I were you I would get a hefty down payment
Ironic that this thread would come along.....Yesterday I got a call from a homeowner that we did some work for 8 years ago. New house. 14x18 deck on the rear of the house. Wrapped the posts w/ primed cedar, cedar rails, turned cedar balusters. He has no time for maintenance, wants me to remove rails, (two labs have eaten two sections of balusters anyhow) replace with vinyl rail, azek rim trim, skirts, and risers on the stairs. Funny, he said "I shoulda had you guys use the vinyl stuff then, but it woulda cost three times as much, right?"Guess it goes to the attitude of the guy you're doing the work for...Too bad your customer is being an unreasonable wanker.I agree that it could cause some bad press if you get in a whizzin contest, tho. If you can knock a little off, and still make a days pay, might be worth it for the good, "Boy that guy treated me right" type of word-of-mouth. Believe me, I'd have a hard time swallowing it, but it might be worth it in the long run. On the other hand, if he's the type to say, "That guy screwed up, and I made him fix it." well, I'd probably say "Stick it". Anyone he tells the story to probably knows he's a cheap ####, and won't put any stock in his rant anyhow. I have a friend like that, won't do work for him, and whenever he birches about something being too much $ we all roll our eyes and rag him out.Good luck.Bing
I wonder if this has nay merit in regard to the pine issue. A friend of mine installed a floor in Louisiana and finished the flooring on the backside before he installed it. Then once it was installed he finished the top surface. A few years later the hardwood floor showed signs of rotting. The finish was good but the floor was not. The subfloor was fine but the hardwood floor was not.
I would go for the 15 - 20 % returning customer discount.
If he was still being unreasonable...
I would agree to all of his terms.
and never schedule it...
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I want to know if there is written standards about when my liability runs out
It's a grey area. If the client is willing to litigate and can convince a judge or jury that the work was negligent, he can argue your liability never ends. Depending on your state, there may also be no time limit for warranties of merchantibility and fitness for purpose - two state granted warranties you usually cannot disclaim.
However, you will almost certainly be far better off to work out an agreement with the client than litigate. Most folks are decent people - if you explain what happened and why, without "blaming", you can probably work out a fair agreement.
it not the workmanship. its the manufactor, tell him take it up with the company- god
I want to know if there is written standards about when my liability runs out.
Your profile doesn't have any info in it, so I don't know where you're located. But each state or province has different warranty laws, and to answer that question, you should check with a lawyer in your area. In my province there are differing minimum legal periods for certain kinds of construction/remod work, and a flat one-year guarantee for almost everything else. Most good contractors offer a better-than-legal-minimum guarantee, of course.
You also didn't mention whether the HO signed off on the choice of pine (I mean literally signed off: as on a change order or in the 'scope of work' section of the contract or estimate); nor why you (he?) didn't choose to use cedar to wrap the posts instead.
Finally you don't mention why the pine rotted, and this is very important. I disagree with other posters who think seven years is beyond the 'best-before' date for white pine. In this area white pine is used extensively for exterior trim, and when it is properly intstalled and maintained it lasts five or six times that long.
If the pine rotted because of lack of maintenance, it's not--or should not be--your problem. If, OTOH, it rotted because you installed it in a manner that did not allow it to drain and dry after each rain, then it is your problem, and you should fix it free...and correct the cause.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
how much money are we talking about?