I bought a Fixer Upper and have found that most carpenters want to bid on various jobs by total cost.
I always try to negotiate time + materials, but they are reluctant.
Why? It seems that time + materials is the fairest to both parties
Also, what is a good, fair hourly wage to pay a master carpenter in the Chicagoland area?
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Replies
The short answer is that total job cost is commonplace. Time and materials can be completely fair, but there's a lot of things to sort out that, with the wrong parties, can get you both upset with each other. Lets say you agree on $40 an hour. Easy enough. But are you paying trip time every day he drives to your house? What about the runs to the hardware store? Ok, he makes a little goof and fixes it, do you count the minutes it takes to fix the mistake and take that off the tally? Whose clock are you going by, and are you rounding to the nearest fifteen, half hour? It's all the little things that can add up. If the carps been around a long time, he's pretty certain of what time he can do what job in, and what that hourly rate should translate into. Trips, hardware runs, and mistakes all included. If he does great, he makes out a little better, if not, you don't suffer. T&M I usually reserve for those things where there is just entirely too much unknown in the equation. Bidding those jobs can do one of two things, lose your shirt, or make the bid so high from the contingency part of the bid that you'd never get the job anyway. If you're willing to agree on all the minute little details and trust his clock and his watch, go for it. But put all the little details in writing so everyone's on the same sheet of music to begin with, provide the photocopier if you want copies of the receipts, and accept that there will be a markup on everything procured for the job.
" I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers." Kahlil Gibran
Simple answer.
He doesnt want to tell you what he wants to make an hour . If hes fast he can bid it and not offend you. Or, he wants to make some profit. Both of the above?
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/3/2003 7:16:27 PM ET by Tim Mooney
You might want to talk to some other carps. On any remodel, I will only do T&M. You never know what you're going to run into. The folks you're talking to may just be more comfortable bidding. If it's a bid that fits your budget, and all the specs are spelled out, you should at least consider it, or ring up Jeff Buck, here, he says he's a master carpenter;-)
EliphIno!
Ok....
thanks for remembering big fella!
$65/hr.....and I'll need travel expenses from Pgh....and a room.....
Jeff
BB....U still pissed that people don't call U a master carp?
practice man........practice and dream. Maybe U have the skills....maybe not.
but don't let yer dream of being me die before ya try. practice.
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Dude, doctors and lawyers practice, I work...I just got tickled by your self professed master carpenter title, thought you'd be the guy to say what they got an hour... EliphIno!
A Union Journeyman carpenter in Chicago gets $31.97/hr.Forman can get $2 $3 over depending on Co., size of job,number of workers,etc.
Non Union carps can get anywhere from $8.00 to$18.00(maybe more but this is what I've been told )
What is a Master Carpenter anyway?Is this the Perfect Carpenter?I guess they could ask what ever they want.
Only heard of one Perfect Carpenter,and he was nailed to a cross!
Didn't always get into trouble when I was drinking,but every time I got into trouble I was drinking.
Scottyb figuring that Chicago isn't that much different than NY what I think
you saying when you say a "Union Journeyman carpenter
in Chicago gets $31.97" is that that is his wage. The actual cost
of hiring a Journeyman from the union is much higher than that because you
would also be paying for the benefit package and union administration fees
(probably) and stuff like that. To actual hire a Union carpenter probably costs
at least $55 to $60. That organization would then again mark that up for overhead
and profit so the real billing rate of a Chicago union journeyman would be
a minimum of $73 per hour. (that's the bare minimum based on a real modest
markup). That $18.00 per hour non-union guy would probably be billing at a
minimum of $30 and to tell you the truth I think that $18 figure is probably
low. I know that here in NY many non-union carpenters make the same as the
union ones do.
Meyerhof if you really want to hire a "real genuine hired gun" type
solo professional you really need to think $60 to $80 per hour. They are out
there for probably half that but you will in the long run get what you are
paying for. If they aren't charging that much they aren't really in it for
the sake of being real business people, they are in it to just make ends meet.
But to tell you the truth I think you are much much better off negotiating
lump sum bids for the work rather than going Time and Materials.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
in chicago the going billing rate is 61.40 for union carps costs about 49.00 per hour to hire a union carp here.
Wow I was pretty close for just plugging in some some typical perventages and punching it out on my calculator.
I just did a little research too and I got a wage figure range of $19.80 to $25.25 per hour for non-union carpenters with a minimum of 5 years experince. Does that sound right to you? It's looks just a tiny bit lower than we see here in the NYC suburbs.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
non union guys get around 25 an hour here, no benefits though
I've worked both ways. Finally quit doing any "by the hour" work. Not that it never works, it just makes for many more opportunities to disagree...
As others say, it's also about profit! But it's also about not qetting myself into a situation where I blew the time estimate and now feel quilty about changing you by the hour. I'd rather be frustrated with myself than to have the customer frustrated with me!
Another consideration: Do you expect to pay profit and overhead beyond the hourly rate? Or do you expect that P&O are built into the hourly rate? Carpenters have plenty of overhead and are as entitled to profit as any business!!!
Try haggling with Ford to get an hourly rate on a new truck!
Average Joe says:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
"Another consideration: Do you expect to pay profit and overhead beyond the hourly rate? Or do you expect that P&O are built into the hourly rate? Carpenters have plenty of overhead and are as entitled to profit as any business!!!"
in other words, you don't pay a wage. You are not his/her employer. You pay for the total amount for the hour.
and comparing hourly costs can be decieving. example one may pay medical and other doesn't.
If you have a carp you want to work with and he doesn't do T&M, then maybe some agreement on sets of small descrete jobs. if you don't have a defininte schedule this may be advantage because he can do things between bigger jobs when he might otherwise have down time.
Just be sure you have GOOD communications and understandings on everything.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's BT Forum cheat sheet
Three men, @ $60.00 per hour, per man.
I don't need men..I generally work solo.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
How much to pay?
Depends. If he grabs the plans, rolls them tight, raises them over his head, commands the building to rise and it happens. A lot. Probably more than you can afford.
If he puts on a Tonka, leatherette tool belt with plastic tools. Frequently references "The Beginners Book of Construction Starring Builder Bob", all 25 pages complete with colorful pictures and a pop up of a real house in the center. Thinks your talking soccer when anyone refers to a header. You might want to pay him a bit less.
The point is that both carpenter and master are, discounting any licensing or certifications, subjective. I remember one of my first construction jobs. I was a laborer but was told, after a few weeks, that if I showed up with tools they would list me as a carpenter and pay me more. I didn't, some might say still, know squat but I spent the $50 on tools and got another $4 an hour.
So the question comes down to how do you define "master". Does he have a certification from some authority or is self applied? How good is he? How many years has he worked on your type of project in your area? Does he have a cordial relationship with the local inspectors? Does he have a stable full of good people he can call on? Is he a people person who makes things run smoothly or are you likely to come home to a picket line.
If you are truly hiring a "master carpenter" then you pay him whatever he asks for and you will still be money ahead.
A master carpenter will get the job done right and quickly ...he wont know any other way to do it.
I agree with Jerrald Hayes last paragraph. You probably could get a good carpenter for half of what an real business carpenter would charge, but you have to search and find them. I know plenty of guys who are great carpenters and work for wages. Don't be so caught up on master this and master that. Just ask friends, relatives, neighbors for references. Someone will know a good carpenter, but he won't be the cheapest guy to run numbers by you. I personally don't like T&M Both sides of the fence needs to be very honest and things can get bad real quick if a detailed contract spelling out every aspect of how time will be compensated is not written not to mention a lot of other details. Just check your wallet on what you can afford and stay within those numbers. Make a list of project priorities, and get what needs to be done, not what you want done. "Don't take life too seriously, you are not getting out of it alive"
You are correct ,I was just stating what wages are for carpenters (Chicago area)
The cost to put a Union Carpenter in the field puts most small jobs out of reach.
What Gary R&R said is true of any project where one is looking for pros to do the work,DO DILIGENCE.Plenty of good carpenters/contractors out there union or not.
Been dodging the bullit all winter here,looks like we are going to get a little dusting of snow(5"to12")