How much out of Square is “allowable”???
BilljustBill
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’m building a 16’X32′, two story, gambrel roof shed.
I’ve got the bottom floor framed and will start the ceiling joists soon. Before I begin to attach those joists, I’ll measure diagonally to check for square.
How much difference between the numbers is “allowable”??
Thanks,
Bill
Replies
Did you square up the floor frame before putting the plywood on it?
Yes, I did square it to 3/16.
Bill
You're good to go.
Materials will vary by that much, perfect is zero, 3/16ths is damn near zero.
Joe H
Bill,
I would work with that number . Keep up that level of accuracy right to the top.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Under a quarter inch - works for me.
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The thing that will be more important for making it easy to set rafters clean at the ridge, is that your bearing plates on the two load walls are parrallel to each other
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Thanks, fellows,
I finished framing today and ran the diagonals. At the top of the studs and plate, on one corner I'm 3/8" longer. 'Hope this doesn't keep you up, there, Karp...LOL
Should I fix it? I have some nylon straps and can pull the corners before I add my 2nd top plate...
All your help and comments give me the power to keep going. Other than framing one outside wall to enclose a carport and become a two car garage, this project is my first big framing project using wood...
Thanks for your help,
Bill
Bill,
If one diagonal is 3/8" longer than the other you are 3/16" out of square.
Straps work , there are any number of ways to push or pull a wall that small amount.
It isn't hard to pick up that 3/16' if you want to .
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
should you fix?Nothing is broke if they are plumb and parrallell
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I see the cause of your problem.
Your building materials weren't stacked properly, no wonder it didn't come out square.
Next time you'll know.
Joe H
Hi Joe,
Actually, the lumber I've stored came from "Culled Lumber Carts" at the big box stores. When my shelving ran out of room and the prices for the carts of lumber made my mouth water, over the Winter I began stacking the boards as I brought them home....For pennies on the dollar for the cost of each board, a whole cart can be usually had for $20 or less.... To offset the "quality" of the lumber, I'm making I-beam wall studs using a 2X4 edgewise, as is the norm, but I'm adding a 2X4 nailed to each side of the stud which will allow me to pullout any twist or bow. It will take around 3 times the lumber, and maybe 1/3 more labor, but it still is much cheaper than buying lumber at the retail price...
Now the picture below is actually a "tongue-in-cheek" bit of humor, but I'm holding one of the really extreme pressure treated boards that came from a cull cart. So, when you see it, you can understand....and maybe appreciate...my dilemma of being 3/8" out of square....
Thanks for your observation and comments,
Bill
I was just kidding, but if that's what you're using getting within 3" of square might be skill overcoming materials.
Hell, maybe 6" out with that propeller stock.
Joe H
You call that "cull stock"? Half the time thats what I find marked "premium" or "choice".
Gotta love the big box stores.
Been noticing the lumber is getting artsiefartsie names now, you'd think you were in th wine cellar.
Plum Creek, crap like that. Must be Yuppie lumber?
Joe H
Plum Creek Lumber is the company name of the second largest lumber producer in the State of Maine and one of the top few majors in the nation. The name is based on teh Plum Creek valley where they first got their start - I think out in the PNW - so it is a geographical name just like GP or LP, nothing artsiefartsie about it.
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I believe that Plum Creek Timber was spun out of Burlington Northern Railroad to manage real estate acquired from the federal government in the 1860's. (Our realtor told us this when we purchased some land in northern Idaho--Burlington Northern and Plum Creek were both on the chain page of owners.)
As for some of the other names you see at Home Depot, et al.....
Riley Creek flows into the Pend Oreille River west of Laclede, Idaho. Laclede is just off Hwy 2, about half way between Priest River and Sandpoint, Idaho. The mill is pretty much at the mouth of Riley Creek--hence the name.
Merritt Brothers started out in Priest River--had a good-sized mill. Sold out in the 80's(?) Don't recall the name of the first buyer. I thought the Merritts had retired, but then started seeing pallets with their name, so apparently they bought a new mill and are producing again. My younger brothers went to school with several of their daughters--nice kids.
The Merritt's Priest River mill sold again (?) in the 90's (?) and is now Stimson Lumber.
Priest River is a logging town of maybe 2000; Laclede is smaller. I suspect that most of the loggers/mill workers would be pretty offended to be referred to as "yuppies".
I still find it strange to be living 1800 miles from where I went to high school and see names I know from that place in major stores.
Kathleen
Kathleen, I didn't mean to imply the loggers were yuppies, my observation was that the lumber seemed to be labeled so as to appeal to yuppies.
Like wine, some warm cuddly names to make it sell.
Also comes in Premiun Select now, what the hell is that? It's not a lumber grade, it's advertising hype to make those nice whitewood sticks seem like something they aren't.
Joe H
>seemed to be labeled so as to appeal to yuppies<
That's just good marketing. Market your product to appeal to your customers that can best affor and are most willing to give they're money to you.
"That's just good marketing. Market your product to appeal to your customers that can best affor and are most willing to give they're money to you."
You are completely right, but aren't you just a little sick of seeing "Creek" on everything? Our small town has Sage Creek, Cedar Creek, Bear Creek and a whole bunch of real named creeks. I'm creeked out.
Yeah, sick of the Creek too. But how about throwing some reality into it like
Up The Creek Mills ?Scum Water Creek Vineyards ?Sewage Treatment Plant Outflow Creek Bottled Water ? (doesn't roll so smoothly but get's a pretty ugly picture, eh?)(a pretty pictue on the label could obscure the name a bit if needed)Dead Carp Creek Canary ?
But around here for neighborhoods it's the Ferry even though there isn't a water crossing in miles. Ferry this, something Ferry that. How about Tooth Ferry Landing? (Oh, yeah, forgot Landing. Landing is popular too like Turkey Vulture Landing, House Fly Landing, Land So Crappy No One Will Buy It (Even With A Cool Name) Landing...)
That picture just shows how they all look on a windy day, LOL!
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Hey! You've been in my sheds!
I just finished up all my 10s and 12s and was getting into the 16footers when I finished up the shed addition.
Intentionally left a culled cart alone at the bigbox they other day. Well, ok, I only went looking for the manager once before I talked myself out of it.
be or ok, maybe twiceNot that all architectural ornament is to be neglected even in the rudest periods; but let our houses first be lined with beauty, where they come in contact with our lives, like the tenement of the shellfish, and not overlaid with it. But, alas! I have been inside one or two of them, and know what they are lined with. -Thoreau's Walden
There's nothing wrong with that board. It conforms to the curvature of the earth rather nicely! buic
That's not lumber, that's a ski for an ice-fishing shanty!!
1/8" +/-
Depends how much PITA you are willing to deal with when you are setting rafters.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
In Texas, you can be out of square by one long horn or less. From what I've heard, they measure in feet and inches, no fractions. Too complicated for all involved, particularly down around Crawford.
I SAW THAT! ;-)
All our "horns" are measured in feet and inches...."Tiny."
Except for land, which is in "varas."
Should you have started your reply with "let me say this" ?
<<Should you have started your reply with "let me say this" ?>>
Let me ask this...why do you say that?
"In Texas, you can be out of square by one long horn or less. From what I've heard, they measure in feet and inches, no fractions. Too complicated for all involved, particularly down around Crawford."
Let me ask this...why do you say that?
Why the snide stuff
You can do better
al
Why the snide stuff
You can do better
It wasn't meant to be snide, just obtuse. This isn't a political message board. Therefore, in my opionion, humor of that kind should be delivered so as to allow it to be easily shrugged off by those who don't agree that it's legitimate or appropriate.
humor?
Oh please! 3/16" could be the thickness of a couple of pencil lines, who knows, you might be perfect! As a matter of fact, I'd consider 3/16" as being perfect. Now go and build, stop interupting my nap.
Now go and build, stop interupting my nap.Isnt that an oxymoron, how can you sleep with all that hammering and skil saw.
I'd like to see it within 1/4"
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I roofed a house once that the framer built 6 inches out of sq, wow i got dizzy just roofing it
That' not called a framer, that's called a hack.
Are you stacking studs one at a time for the walls? If you are building cabinets sorry don't allow out of square. Framing 1/4" is ok, yeck the wall I hung cabinets on last week was 1" out of plumb in 9', hey I didn't frame that one.
BilljustBill,
When?
When do you measure out of square? I carefully plumbed and squared my home to absolute perfection. (I'm building it myslef right so if it takes me longer so what?)
The following summer the wall bowed out 3/4 of an inch and the following winter it bowed in over an inch and 3/4 this was while the timbers were drying.. In moving this much it pulled SIP's which are about 200% stronger than tradional stick framed homes right along with it.. Big massive black walnut timbers on the outside connected to big massive white oak timbers on the inside. with SIP's in between.. about as sturdy a wall as you can imagine..
It's still bowed in by 3/4 of an inch nearly 6 years later.
I look at thousands of houses every year while a 1/4 inch is the normal tolerance I've seen much much worse pass inspection and get sold.. If you want a real eye opener take a plumb bob to the walls of any home you visit. (it's much more compact than a 6 foot level ;-)
If you want a real eye opener take a plumb bob to the walls of any home you visit.
That would indicate how level the foundation is. Standard western/platform framing techniques concentrate on building exterior walls square before raising them and then bracing them so that the top plates are straight. That way the end product looks "right". So don't blame the framing crew if the exterior walls aren't plumb.
Frenchy,
Thanks for the perspective about what you see in the real world. This culled lumber has allowed me to have a building at a cost well below what the Big Box Boys charge, so being a bit out of perfect is okay.... Not having much framing experience, I was needing some benchmark comments and observations to know if as I build the second story and gambrel roof, to self-check as I proceed.
Besides, even though the wall movement might give you a worry or two as they dry, I wouldn't be a tad worried about the give and take with Walnut as a major element to your household. I'd like to see a picture of how you used hardwood timbers like you describe. I've always loved Walnut!!
Bill