Everyone else wants to know how much per sq ft, so why should’t I join the fun?
How much to restore/redevelop/rejuvenate and change to condos a 40,000 sf old school?
The infrastructure is sound and were going to try to keep as much of the floors as possible. The floors are a mixture of hardwood, terrazzo and concrete. The building is concrete beams and posts with 12′ ceilings throughout. Most of the existing plaster is in great shape, but some needs to be repaired.
Our options are to strip the entire mess and start with a raw concrete canvas, or restore everthing.
The building has oak trim throughout. Lots of wide base and it’s all in excellent shape. It probably needs the finish stripped and renewed. There is plenty of “extra” trim because all the chalkboards were trimmed in Oak and the boards are very, very long!
Is chalkboards worth anything?
I’m thinking about 20 condo units.
How much per sq ft?
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we’ll finance it. Drop me an email; it’s a good buy.
Replies
Kind of vague question, you are wanting to turn an old school into 20 condos?
My guess would be high for a restore and very high for a gut job.
Lots of hidden problems in old schools, asbestos, lead paint, lead pipes.
Not a whole lot of wood in schools, lots of steel and concrete. Which comes at high labor and material. Demo work and dumpsters alone will be a big bill.
Hows the roof? Is it pea stone and tar?
I would plan on a gut job with a large price tag.
Kind of vague question, you are wanting to turn an old school into 20 condos
Yes, that's it exactly. Theres 34000 sf of school in a building that is 3 stories. The bottom level is a daylight basement with the finished plaster ceilings at 8'. The two remaining floors are 12' plastered ceilings.
Hows the roof? Is it pea stone and tar?
Yes, the roof is a asphalt flat roof. We will be looking at stripping it and re-roofing, just capping the entire roof with a hip roof with a standing seam metal roof and adding an ornate cornice.
Lots of hidden problems in old schools, asbestos, lead paint, lead pipes.
That will be the challenge, especially for an old washed up framer that had never done a restoration!
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
The building sounds pretty good, high ceilings and old wide trim are big selling points in my area of Michigan.
Sounds like a fun project Blue, the stuff you find in a school project is crazy. Pull out a built in cabinet and there might be 1,000 pencils behind it. So that is one thing that I promise you won't have to buy. :)
What part of the state is your project in?
I like the sound of that. They'd be nice Dixon Ticonderoga #2s.
This old building is fantastic Stilletto. I'm not normally a fan of old stuff because, well...it's old and usually decrepit but this building was build strong back in the days when men were lumberjacks and the women stayed home and cooked! It is a very solid concrete building with excellent brickwork.
I won't have to look hard to find stuff. There's at least 1000 desks in there and maybe that many computers! There are antigue teacher's desks and antigue kindergarted tables.
There are a lot of built in Oak bookshelf and cabinets. Dampness has swelled them so they don't operate but I'm sure everything will be fine once we put some heat to the building later this month.
The project is in NE Michigan. I'm being somewhat vague because I haven't signed the final counteroffer docs (fax troubles). I'm doing that in the morn.
I do agree, this does sound like a fun project. It's energizing me.
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Digging through the old wrecked stuff left behind is half the fun of working on the old places. Sounds like a great building, good luck with it.
I signed on my Onaway property last friday and cant wait to start working on it. Onaway has to wait in line though, I have to get Ferndale online first(hopefully about a month) cause that one has a note on it. Probably start up north this spring.
cost of project divide by square feet = cost per square foot. can't price it to sell until it's done. Just do it and sell as a b.e.devil custom,tag your profit on top of cost and sell the damn thing.You're building because you're a pro carp. did da vinci sweat the small stuff on the blank canvases he painted. i doubt it
Edited 10/30/2006 11:10 pm ET by KirkpatrickFramer
I'm no Davinci but heres an oil I did for this project.
Your suggestion for the title is interesting, but I think I'd like to solicit more help.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Good luck with your deal, post some pictures. Sounds like a good winter project.
Heres the pics of Phase I.
Phase II is on the left.
Phase III is on the right.
I'm going to need help with this and I'm hoping I can get some of the collective wisdom here to guide me. I'm not in over my head if I can get a little bit of help from my friends.
I think theres a song in there somewhere.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Blue,
Nice looking building. What happened ? Closed due to declining enrollment, or did they replace it with a new one?
Looks like a great project, if there is a market. Alpena? or nearby? I'm a former UP'er. Did quite a bit of snow skiing in the northern LP, back in the day.
Good luck ! That would be a great photo thread project!
Brudoggie
I'm very close to making the big announcement Brudoggie. I can't say anything more at this time.
I have been giving it some thought about the photo thread. I'm thinking that I'm going to need a lot of advice from the collective wisdom, so I should do a thread just so I can get my hand held a little bit on this deal.
I'll make my decision in a day or two. I'm 80% for it, and 20% against. The only negative is the time it takes to stay up with it, but the rewards are great because I can reap so much valuable information.
I've made my decision. I will do a thread.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Blue,
No problem, on the disclosure thing. I think investing in that region, makes some sense. The tourism/ retirement location industry seems to show some decent growth, as opposed to the majority of the states economy.
I was just discussing something similiar, with my financial advisor, this morning. He's big into the "world economy" and the US's shrinking role in it. I joked that we ( the US) are going to become a destination resort, for wealth foriegners. With our workers being more or less the servants. Laugh all you want, but it could easily happen.
Recreational areas become fewer and farther in between, as our population grows. Making them, more valuble. There is only so much wilderness, and waterfront. This philosophy is driving alot of my investment concentration currently.
If that project gets a go, I'd love to check it out. I'm only about a 4 hour drive from the bridge.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Brudoggie
Edited 11/1/2006 5:17 pm ET by Brudoggie
Good for you Mark! I'm very interested to see the town of Onaway and your place will be my first priority!
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Cool, not much to look at now, its furnished in "early dirt" my biggest find so far was in taking down the drop ceiling and seeing a used condom fall to the ground. Cant wait to open the rest of the walls. I did open one. The front of the house has a slight droop in the roof line right above a window thats obviously not original to the house.
Sure enough, as soon as we signed, I opened up the wall, guess what, "nah we dont need a header here, the walls only holding up 1.5 floors." Theres the first job.
Let me know when you're up that way, if i'm up there we'll have to meet up.
Where is the school. What city.
the last old school i demo'd the chakboards were real slate... by brother now has a slate covered fireplace because of it.. the backside should still have the "slate look"
as for cost per SF...
who is going to do the work... where is it? sprinkler required? ADA? @20 units only one has to be ADA... sperate electric service? elec or gas heat? all one level or 2? is time a factor? what will the locals require?
i can tell you if i could do it (law wise) without engineers (their stamps) and other design professionals... and could operate with 100% cash out of my pocket... i could save 20-25%
If on a slab there is alot of concrete cutting to get plumbing where it's required... venting is a huge issue bath, kitchen and dryer vents...
if one story... then for hvac it's all package units... with package unit you save over 50% and gain SF inside... come precharged ,no copper lines ect... exposed duct... open floor plans save huge...
I'll tell you what i can and do my own for... and this is with all appliances, concrete countertops, alot of 8ft doors... and pretty nice trim package... alot of steel... but with fiberglass shower & tub units...
i can do it for under $50 a sf but then i'm a pretty tight redneck jew who thinks he has to do everything himself and that no one else can do it the way i want it... that or maybe i just like doing everything .... (note i did say UNDER 50)
p
on top of that... i know ways i could have sped this project up and saved money might could have saved 10-20% with a few minor design changes
In NYC $50/sf are just the soft costs. I was going to say if it was CM'd and all you'd be looking at minimum of $250/sf, but that's in a very unionized market..
If you spent that kind of dough putting together condos in Michigan right now you'd be insane. Maybe he's talking about somewhere else.
Lofts are selling for $1500/sf - $3000/sf in my area.
Let's see, that'd be Tribeca.... selling to Tom Cruise and Richard Gere. From what I hear southeast Michigan is flush with unsold high-end condos right now, and I'm guessing the average is closer to $300 a foot.
Actually Richard Gere lives on Sullivan St. in the village. A buddy of mine is a super on a townhouse directly behind his bldg. He comes over now and then to check out the progress. The townhouse was purchased for $15M and the gut renovation is aprox. $5M. Total sf of the town house is aprox. 3500 which equals aprox. $5700/sf. Many of us non-celebrities have to pay at least $1500 sf to own in this city.
My brother owns a condo-ized office somewhere in Manhattan and sees Richard on the elevator. Apparently his production company is in the same building. I know that Peter did not pay anywhere near $1500/ft., even including the buildout he did. Who can afford to live there when 600 feet costs you a million dollars?
Locations is everything.
Last year my sister sold her apartment. 66th or 68th, I don't recall, between 1st and 2nd.
600 sqft Well over $600K it worked out to something like $1100 a ft.
Well these are the current plateaus that have been reached in this extremely over-heated real estate market. Five years ago a loft (open floor of a former factory) would fetch about around $500/sf. Those prices are now around $1500/sf. Believe me I know many a real estate agent and consult on construction projects for a living. The sad fact is alot of people cannot afford to live in Manhattan, or they are heavily mortgaged. It is rapidly becoming the playground for the rich or deeply in debt.
From what I hear southeast Michigan is flush with unsold high-end condos right now
It's not in SE Michigan.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
If you spent that kind of dough putting together condos in Michigan right now you'd be insane.
I don't know if insane is the right word. Perhaps "crazy" might be more appropriate. Hopefully "crazy like a fox" will somehow become my label.
The condo market might be soft (actually, I think the condo market is much better than single family home) but everey market has their regional perks. Sometimes circumstances dictate that certain things will work, even in down markets. This appears to be one area that might be viable.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
In NYC $50/sf are just the soft costs. I was going to say if it was CM'd and all you'd be looking at minimum of $250/sf, but that's in a very unionized market..
What do you mean "soft costs"? What is CM'd. I'm reading that as Construction Mastered but I don't really think it could mean that!
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Soft costs include the architect & engineering fees / appraisals and assesments / hazmat testing / plan check fee & building permit / utility fees (sewer and water hook-up)/ borrowing fees (cost of the loan)CM'd - Construction Managagement
Thanks for that reply TGNY. I'll make it a point to watch for those costs to see how they compare.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Great information Pony. Thanks.
who is going to do the work... where is it? sprinkler required? ADA? @20 units only one has to be ADA... sperate electric service? elec or gas heat? all one level or 2? is time a factor? what will the locals require?
At this point, I will be GCing and of course some of the work will be done as a sub by our carpenter crews. We'll be seeking sub labor for everything else.
The sprinkler system will be minimal according to the Architect who did a preliminary walk through. Since we don't intend to add commercial in the mix, he said the sprinler system would be minor. I'm thinking that the common areas would have heads.
We most likely will make it ADA compliant because we will be marketing to empty nesters.
I'm assuming that the only logical thing would be to have separte electrical meters.
Natural Gas is available for heat.
The units will all be one level. If we put something in the Gym (I'm hoping I don't have to re-develop this) we'll probably have loft units with two storys. The gym ceiling is now high enough to put two storys in quite easily.
Time is always a factor. The time factor of money alone dictates that but we will not have some demon of a time schedule. A normal pace for construction activity like this will be suitable.
The locals will be extremely helpful, I'm told. That remains to be seen.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Just a few thoughts, since I was involved in exactly the same type of project in DC many years back
We did sprinkler the building...but I can't remember if it was common areas only...it was done in plastic pipe (I remember some excitement when one shattered under test)-don't know if plastic is still legal anywhere, but it certainly was easier to run
We did NG water heaters, piped in high pressure with brazed copper flexible tubing...this was before the days of the new gas flex pipe-I don't recall what the heat/AC plant was
We converted the (very large, very pigeon infested) attic space into living space; one thing I remember fondly is convincing the architect to engineer the addition of lots of 3/4 ply to turn some of the existing framing into a built-up truss structure, saving a large amount of money.
Parking was an issue...as I recall, we had to dig out a minimal parking structure under the building to satisfy the zoning folks.
Probably the biggest challenge in the project was figuring out how to turn what were very large, high ceilinged classrooms into marketable apartments (at a better than loft space) price....I remember coming in some years later and building platform bed-rooms in a few of the units...
I did learn some interesting things about old brick construction- like the fact that when you get to the top of the wall, and there aren't several tons worth of brick above, the last few layers aren't exactly sturdy ;-)
Good luck with it....we were there for at least a year...maybe more
Thanks for the encouragement JMBJ.
Did your project involve much hazmat removal? And did you have to restore the Oak trim too?
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
FWIW Blue, in NYC (and I do realize the dollars will be quite different then MI) but HazMat remediation for a typical NYC school is anywhere form 500K to $1M
I don't doubt your numbers a bit TGNY. The differences in cost is shocking. I'm thinking I can do this total reno in 1.2 mil.
blue Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Only if shoveling up pigeon poop counts ;-)I was a lowly nail banger back then, so I don't recall if there was asbestos removal involved....and if I had to guess, I'd say there wasn't much lead removal either...just new paint over whatever was there.As far as the trim, I don't remember any restoration, but we did install quite a bit of new, custom two piece casing at the new unit entrys.
As has already been said, there's a ton of variables, with the biggest being the asbestos and lead paint issues. We looked at a similar project here in NJ a few years back (though somewhat larger), and the costs were going to be in the $170/SF range. In today's market, it wouldn't surprise me if that number was closer to TGNY's $250/SF.
Bob
Some time ago the company my father worked for had tasked him with evaluating some buildings in the NNJ/NYC area for just such conversions.
at the time (Early 90's) all the concerns that came up drove the price so high that everyone doubted they could even recoup the original investment. Forget about profit.
Some of them where in Hoboken.
Guess timing really is everything.
and the costs were going to be in the $170/SF range. In today's market, it wouldn't surprise me if that number was closer to TGNY's $250/SF.
When you talks about costs, are you talking about the costs to do the work, or the selling price?
Construction costs in our area are dropping due to flood of skilled labor in the market. Construction materials are dropping because of excess inventory.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
No less than $100.00 a square foot. Right now our restaurant buildouts are statrting at &65.00 a foot and that dosent' get you much.
No less than $100.00 a square foot. Right now our restaurant buildouts are statrting at &65.00 a foot and that dosent' get you much.
I thought resturants would be more than residential condo units.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
That's in an existing building with current mechanicals and no kitchen equipment or furniture. Same as in a residential unit, level of finish has alot to do with price.
Things are going well here. Unfortunately, I don't get involved with the NYC projects, so I really don't know what the holdup is (if there is one). I'll see if I can find anything out next week and let you know.
So do you need any help on the Bahamas project? I'm always up for a week of "construction observation" in a warm climate in December....lol
Bob
Hijack alert
Doing the next Atlantis
Missing the question mark because I screwed up the keyboard layout on my laptop
Nope. The new competition. It's secret, if I tell you, I'll have to kill you. :-)
I spent a bit of time back of house at Atlantis once....
Frighteningly bad infrastructure/sanitation.....
I'm curious....do you have to kill me before you tell more about what kind of work you do, & who for?(got my keyboard layout fixed...yippeee...that was easier than the usual computer glitch fix)
I'm working on a new resort in a project management / cost control capacity. There is a certain level of confidentiality on the project so I'd rather not discuss the players on this forum. I've been over to Atlantis a few times and everything is nice that can be seen and touched, beyond that it is as cheap as can be. Personally not my cup of tea, but probably a great place to take the kids.
OK...
remember seeing something in the press a while back about another "Atlantis" project in the islands.....
OK to private e-mail you?...the hospitality giant that usually keeps the wolf from my door in the winters is slow this year, & it might be time to do some networking/looking.....
By all means.
Be sure and check with your bonding and insurance Co. The insurance for condo projects here in the NW is keeping a lot of players on the sidelines.
Thanks for that reminder Left Handed Hammer. I'm looking for an insurance man now.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Where is the school?