Sorry, this will be a long one. Had my roof redone about five years ago, real heavy duty cedar shakes (3/4″ +) with copper flashing. My garage roof joins the house vertical wall with a dead valley, approx 40″ long. This dead valley has leaked periodically over the five year period; the leak is not due to debris, snowor ice. The dead valley consists of four or five pieces of copper with interlocking U seams and then soldered (sort of- since the soldering has never been done well) It leaks in one spot, closest to the highest point. Despite re doing this area four times the problem persists. The roofer has now told me that they recommend a redesign of the roof to put in a cricket which he claims would eliminate the problem but his proposal is for a cricket with an 11 foot ridge and would require two additional squares of shakes. He claims the cost for this would be over five thousand dollars and wants me to pony up a half.
I have two questions.
1 the original roof lasted over 25 years with a continuous zinc coated steel flashing which eventually rusted out; therefor it does not seem to me that I have a roof design problem
2 I feel the problem is that the job was not properly completed in the first place and would like to know what is the “correct” way to do a dead valley in copper (could the problem be one caused by thermal expansion/contraction needing a particular way of assembly of the copper?)
Viewpoints would be greatly appreciated
Replies
david...is a "dead valley" another name for a bathtub ?... if so...
then your roofer is right... i would never roof a situation with a "dead valley"
it has to pitch to drain... so , if he wants to build a cricket.. it sounds like exactly the solution i would use.. and have in the past
i've reframed ( overframed ) some roofs to eliminate "dead valleys".. the ONLY thing they can do is eventually leak.. whereas a pitched to drain roof ... could have holes in it and still might not leak.
Mike
The garage roof ridge is perpendicular to the main house roof. The main house id two story, the garage one story high. The slope of the garage roof is towards the wall of the end of the house. This would create a valley with zero slope if it were not for a "build out" at the far end of the valley which diminishes to zero at the near end. This gives a very slight fall in the valley, say about 1 foot in 40 feet. Hope that this clarifies the problem a bit.
David H
Take a pic. Post it and get advice that will pay for the pic hundreds of times.
Will do when I find the way to attche the pic with this computer. Thanks for the advice
David H
We called a dead valley one that sat between two gables that ran together. A lot of them had a two regular valleys terminate ,or empty into the dead valley. The dead valley was framed so it drained to the roof edge. None were flat that I remember. Even at that with the mineral roofing that we used we never had one leak in just five years. Copper should have lasted one heck of a lot longer. Call Greencu
Try to attach a picture because I don't get this Dead Valley thing because who is dumb enough to frame a roof this way without putting a cricket in.The way we frame roofs around here even if we have two gables facing the same way we frame another roof the opposite way as part of the design wether you call it a giant cricket or not the roof allows the water to run off.It seems like from some of the reprocess here that this is normal framing.You said my drawings are close so tell me what I have to do to make them right so I can understand this Dead Valley thing. Joe Carola
yes .... i would overframe it to construct a giant "cricket"..
IE: a small gable pitching to the front & rear so the water would run from teh ridge to the "dead valley" but it would hit the cricket and flow both ways...
naturally this would also require a good flashing at the vertical wall of the house..
this cricket could be membrane, copper, lead coat, or modified ( like one of he peel& stick.. )
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"This gives a very slight fall in the valley, say about 1 foot in 40 feet. Hope that this clarifies the problem a bit."You said in your first post that it was 40" if it's 40' does it look more like this drawing?Joe Carola
Here ya go, Joe.It is a mind boggler how someone could let a sloppy design item like this get by - either the builder or the roofers.S Haz does have a decent suggwestion though with the EPDM to line the bathtub situation.
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That's the same as my last drawing but the main roof I ran it opposite of yours. Anyway what in Hell kind of framing is that without the center roof? That's the most ridiculous thing I even seen. They forgot to frame the rest of the roof.Joe Carola
Here's my take -
The house was already there
The owner openned up his sunday TV supplement to the paper and there was a great looking ad that said he could have a garage for only $3800.
somebody got lucky on the first pass, but I'm even willing to bet there is old water sign showing when this new shake rook gort installed. They ignored the signs and common sense - maybe with the HO demanding the cheaper version with no cricket and did the best they could under that stipulationBut that is all just my imagination. Doesn't change the fact that this is an obvius design prioblem and the HO wants to put it off on the roofer.I'll go halfway in agreeing the roofer has some fault in that he should have never put those shakes on without bidding in a cricket, That cricket would have added to the cost - probably about what he is asking the HO to chip in now. Sounds fair to me
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I guess anyway you look at why it was done that way it has to be fixed and look nice. If it is like the drawing then he should just have it done right and put a cricket in. I added it in your drawing.Joe Carola
Joe,
NOW we are all on the same page!
In my area there was a large builder( Ryan Homes) that used to have a model just like this---only they built it with out the cricket. As I understand it---that model has been discontinued---LOL.
The cricket as drawn,BTW is so large I would think of it almost as a dormer
however---for the sake of conversation-----lets call the face of the building closest to us the front---and the other side the back.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to having the cricket ridge meet the main ridge on the garage with equal pitch.
I would prefer to see the pitch vary from that of the garage so that the back valley would run PAST the corner of the house---maybe half way to the corner of the garage
the real problem is the FRONT valley here----that's the one that is going to cause problems--- regaurdless of the cricket---that potential problem is ALWAYS gonna be there.
But---in the design phase----the position of that garage could be adjusted so that valleys could be constructed front AND back that would miss the corner of the house. Pulling that garage forward a couple of feet could work a miracle
Easy to do in the design phase---virtually free in fact.
Pretty expensive to let greencu---or even me---compensate for a needlessly bad design. LOL
BTW---ya just know the builder is gonna want that shingled and warrantied for $25/sq. LOL
Stephen
Gentlemen,
The garage does extend about two feet past the front and the rear of the gable end wall.
David H
Piffin,
For your clarification I bought the house from the builder in 1979, new construction. By 1997 the dead valley was rusting out ( a continuous shhet of zinc coated steel formed the dead valley and it never leaked. Since the roof was now 18 years old I decided to have the whole roof done. My instructions to the roofers who quoted me were that I required a roof that I would not have to worry about in my lifetime (I was 61 in 1997). I requested copper flasings, downspouts etc. I did not select the cheapest bid and paid $43,000 for the roof to be redone, that was not cheap for a 3600 square foot home on two floors with an attached double garage. My neighbor had a single story 3800 sq ft roof reroofed with sawn cedar shingles for $23,000 that same year. No roofer mentioned the problem with the dead valley at that time. I am not trying to pass off the issue onto the roofer, that is why I am trying to understand the problem. Each of you who have responded are helping me to comprehend that the problem is one of design, and now I need to undestand the best way to work with my roofer who by the way has a good reputation and has followed through under warranty reasonably well.
Sorry for my presumption. What I presented to jow as a possible scenario is one I have seen played out far too often. My apologies to you. Sounds like you have done everything right and the roofer you have is doing well, with the exception of not recommending the cricket when he fiirst saw the job.Stucco can be cut and flashed - not as easy as vinyl but can do.Now that I think about it, he had to get under the stucco with the copper this time around already...
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I think piffins drawing is right on, the only thing is I would not call it a dead valley, Id call it a disaster waiting to happen and a shake roof on top of that, yikes, I thnk shake only works by magic anyway
maybe it gets it name because the person that did it, their licence is dead now.
A cricket, a biggin, is the only fix I can see that I would put my name on.
wonder if there is any mold issues in the walls now, yikes ,
I see a lot of these dead valleys as I drive around town. I see them as future repair work for me. Roofers I know will shingle them if you insist but will not warranty them. That usually gets folks to consider alternatives
Piffin,
You have it almost perfectly. A nice representation. As I shared with Framer, there is a slight fall from front to rear of about 1 foot in 40. The gable end wall is stucco so if a cricket is built I anticipate problems with flashing to the gable end. Am I correct ?
Sincerely,
David H
Framer,
Sorry if I misled you. Yes, this represents the way the roof is.
Thanks for clarifying.
David H
What's a Dead Valley?
Are you saying that your house roof let's say is a gable and your garage is up against the fascia side and the garage roof is a gable the opposite way of the house but the ridge is a little higher then the fascia and the width of that is 40" long?
I just drew a quick sketch of what I was thinking.
BTW, Is this the same roofer who did it the frirst time and if so why didn't he suggest it back then instaed of telling now that you need a cricket. Any good roofer will know if it needs a cricket or something so that it wont leak.
Joe Carola
Edited 1/24/2005 4:09 pm ET by Framer
sorry Joe---that's not it. Not even close.
Your valley drains out onto another roof---no big deal
A dead valley runs sideways right into a freakin wall---we call 'em blind valleys.
The FIRST thing we do when we bid a roof with one of these is jack the price WAY up. the customer already has a problem---and knows it.
I don't use wood shingles---so i won't comment on this specific posters problem
but on an asphalt shingle roof what I have done several times is fabricate a pan from " seamless rubber"---it works great. You have to take off some siding---but you can build a simple jig that will let you fabricate a pan to handle the lower part of the valley-----run way up the wall---you can even extend the rubber WAY down the roof and even around another corner. I have done it several times for valleys which drain against chimneys also.
Very cost effective if you have some epdm experience---and it is a very fun AND profitable project to retro fit these as a repair after someone elses valley fails.
almost always these problem valleys could be avoided at the design phase by either changeing the pitch of one of the roofs---or changeing the dimension or position of one of the buildings. Most of these I encounter are caused by attached garages with the garage ridge 90 degrees to the house ridge.
Stephen
David,I guess I still don't get it but the picture I drew the garage ridge is running 90° off the house and the ridge is a little high creating a 40" wall that the water runs into I guess called a "Dead Valley" as David calls it.If my picture is right the ridge should've continued straight through creating two small valleys. If I'm still wrong I'll smack myself in the head........;-)Joe Carola
Framer,
You are close but I think I need to provide a sketch; please see the attachement (if I am successful in attaching it- my first time at this!
David H.
Help I clicked on attach button but could not find how to attch my rough sketch file. How do I do this?
David H
Edited 1/24/2005 8:08 pm ET by davidh
When you click on the attach button, you should get a new popup window that prompts you. If you don't, you may have to disable your popup killer.
Thank you for the advice. I will try again.
David H
My opinion - after over twenty years roofing - any dead valley is a gauranteed leak. You go tlucky the first time around.
after my first four or five years roofing I knew enough to refuse to try a dead valley and to get the owner to pay for a cricket
Shakes are much more open and less water proof by nature. Even more prone to leak than other shingles.
Somebody was asking too much out of this design
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I was under the impression that mixing cedar and copper was a no-no - or is that just redwood?
then soldered (sort of- since the soldering has never been done well)
1 the original roof lasted over 25 years with a continuous zinc coated steel flashing which eventually rusted out; therefor it does not seem to me that I have a roof design problem
2 I feel the problem is that the job was not properly completed in the first place and would like to know what is the "correct" way to do a dead valley in copper (could the problem be one caused by thermal expansion/contraction needing a particular way of assembly of the copper?)
Here's my take: The original design was bad, but completed by a good craftsman. The redo was done incompetantly. If I was doing this project, I'd install a cricket. See if you can get some other proposals to redo this section of roof and look at some of their work before hiring someone else. I suspect that the roofer's cost is about what he want's you to pay and is trying to profit from his mistake. Good luck.
Scissors cut paper. Rock breaks scissors. Paper wraps rock.
like someone already said you can do magic with EPDM.