Have a 1956 ranch style single story house in So. Cal. Doing some remodeling in which the architect is wanting to move an exterior load bearing wall out by about 1 ft. So, I’m not thrilled with this idea, but would like to get some opinions. If the wall currently supports 2 x 6 ceiling joists that are toe nailed into the top plate of the wall, once the wall is removed, how do I extend the ceiling joists to rest on the new wall ? Do I double-butt new 2 x 6 in parallel with the existing joist, do I use some sort of Simpson tie or other ideas. The total length of the wall is 50 ft or so.
thanks
yes, the this ext wall supports the roof, another reason not to move this wall is then the roof line (pitch, height, etc) needs to be re-framed.
ceiling joist 2 x 6’s are about 16 feet max, space above this living space is attic, no second floor.
I will let architect tell me how to do it, but wanted your opinions before I let him make real drawings showing a wall moved only 12 inches, there are other options we can do and not move the wall 12 inches out.
Edited 9/11/2009 10:50 am ET by KWOLSEN
Edited 9/11/2009 10:53 am ET by KWOLSEN
Edited 9/11/2009 10:55 am ET by KWOLSEN
Replies
let the architect tell you how, it is job, he liable if it falls in
a) a load bearing beam where the wall was
b) remove old ceiling, frame new one with longer joists, wall to wall
c) a joist stretcher - most architects have them, along with a truth stretcher
edited to add: what about the roof - it doesn't sit on this wall?
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Edited 9/11/2009 1:09 am by Huck
There is one more option, but I can't tell without more details about the existing.But like you, that roof is the larger concern.ever see a 50' long beam for a ceiling?
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ever see a 50' long beam for a ceiling?
intermittent supports (posts or wall sections) - although it could be done with a glue-lam, I imagine. Crane to set it? hahahaView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
whaddya mean crane? Wat kinda man are you cain't pik up a toothpick like that?
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is the ceiling the only thing this load bearing wall is supporting?
What else is there? being an exterior wall, I am supposing the roof loads onto it also and is the larger concern.
How long are the 2x6s?
BTW, this is the architect's job to figure out and detail.
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if your lucky (I never am) how much do the cieling joists overlap in the middle of the house?
yes, the this ext wall supports the roof, another reason not to move this wall is then the roof line (pitch, height, etc) needs to be re-framed.
Piffin and Huck,
He said this in his first post.
KWOLSON,
No need for concern there because this type of addition is done every day. Since your bumping out, you have no choice but to change the roof line. The ceiling joists and rafter are always supported by a beam whether it's steel or wood. It can be dropped or flush. It all depends on what type of roof the addition will have. You do have a need to be concerned if the Architect draws this without a beam.
If you have an addition that will have a shed roof on top of your existing roof and when the Architect figures what size beam you need, if it's a tall one you can easily install a flush beam and hang the ceiling joists and rafters off that beam. If you want a dropped beam no problem either.
A flush beam that is taller than your HAP cut on your rafters if your new roof is a gable or hip causes a problem because you have to cut a big slash cut off the top of the beam. That can also be calculated to the maximun to be cut and be done by using bigger rafters to give you a bigger HAP cut.
No need for concern there because this type of addition is done every day. Since your bumping out, you have no choice but to change the roof line. The ceiling joists and rafter are always supported by a beam whether it's steel or wood.
I actually didn't catch that he said it supports a roof, but it doesn't really detract from the point: If moving the wall is going to require putting a beam in to support the roof, then why would the h.o. be asking how to support the ceiling joists? The same beam that supports the roof would support the ceiling joists. Hence, the question, Does this wall have a roof on it? Meaning, If you move an exterior wall supporting a roof, and you put support in place of the wall to hold the roof up, then the ceiling would be addressed also. If you re-frame the roof over the new wall, why wouldn't you re-frame the ceiling also?
I say that because we don't always put a beam in like you say, sometimes we reframe a portion of the roof, or the ceiling, that is affected by moving the wall. Frame it right out to sit on the new wall. New rafters, new ceiling joists, new shingles, new drywall, the whole shebang. Which is why I said new ceiling joists. We do sometimes put a beam in, which is why I said that was also an option, in my response.
A picture (photo sketch or blueprint) would probably help clarify the o.p.'s particular situation.
You kinda have to wonder too, if he's got an architect drawing this up, why he would be asking how to support his ceiling. Here in my neck of the woods, the architect would address these type of structural issues in his blueprints.
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Edited 9/12/2009 2:18 am by Huck
I actually didn't catch that he said it supports a roof, but it doesn't really detract from the point: If moving the wall is going to require putting a beam in to support the roof, then why would the h.o. be asking how to support the ceiling joists?
Probably because the plans don't call for removing the existing ceiling joists and roof, therefore a beam needs to hold up both ceiling joists and rafters.
The same beam that supports the roof would support the ceiling joists. Hence, the question, Does this wall have a roof on it? Meaning, If you move an exterior wall supporting a roof, and you put support in place of the wall to hold the roof up, then the ceiling would be addressed also.
It would be addressed by the same beam whether you put it flush or dropped. If it's flush the ceiling joists and rafters would get cut back to the inside of the wall and they would be nailed to the beam with double hangers. If the beam is dropped, the ceiling joist don't get cut at all and the rafters just get cut at the HAP cut and nailed on top of the new beam.
If you re-frame the roof over the new wall, why wouldn't you re-frame the ceiling also?
Why would you rip down an existing finished ceiling for no reason whether you have a dropped beam or flush beam? Especially with the existing roof staying there.
I say that because we don't always put a beam in like you say, sometimes we reframe a portion of the roof, or the ceiling, that is affected by moving the wall. Frame it right out to sit on the new wall.
What do you do with the existing rafters when you do that? Something has to hold them up. You can frame the way your saying if the existing rafters are coming out.
New rafters, new ceiling joists, new shingles, new drywall, the whole shebang. Which is why I said new ceiling joists. We do sometimes put a beam in, which is why I said that was also an option, in my response.
Only if the existing rafters are coming out, you can do what your saying. If they are not coming out, something has to hold the existing rafters up. If you have a dropped beam you can do what your saying, but there's really no need to do that when you can just nail new short ceiling joist on without disturbing the existing ceiling.
You kinda have to wonder too, if he's got an architect drawing this up, why he would be asking how to support his ceiling. Here in my neck of the woods, the architect would address these type of structural issues in his blueprints.
Alot of people on this forum wing it without knowing what they're doing.
Joe Carola
"Probably because the plans don't call for removing the existing ceiling joists and roof, therefore a beam needs to hold up both ceiling joists and rafters"Joe, I don't believe that any 'plans' exist yet.
If they did, there would be absolutely not reason for the OP to ask this question here.A lot of archies start out with a 'concept' drawing or a 'bubble/box' set of rooms thrown against the wall to see what sticks - what excites the HO.
I think he mentioned it as one solution or idea to get to where they want to go. It is just part of a process used to communicate and get started.
add to that, the archy might be one of those pie in the sky dreamers and artists with no concept of engineering principles that we all run into from time to time.
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He does have the Architect working on them according to him and the Archy wants to bump the wall out 1' for some reason. Any Architect that I know can figure out that they need a beam there if they want the existing roof and ceiling to stay. If this Architect can't figure that out, he ain't an Architect. It's such a simple thing to figure.
Joe Carola
He does not currently have the architect working on the plans yet Joe."Have a 1956 ranch style single story house in So. Cal. Doing some remodeling in which the architect is wanting to move an exterior load bearing wall out by about 1 ft.I will let architect tell me how to do it, but wanted your opinions before I let him make real drawings showing a wall moved only 12 inches..."See, he is not LETTING the architect work on these plans with his idea of moving it only one foot. This OP knows his archy has a goofy idea.
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E$xactly. (I started to correct my typo, but thought that it was appropriate.What he is saying is "the arch has some hair brain idea of moving a wall out just 1 ft. Is this as hair brain as I think that it is and if so not waste my time and money getting it detailed out. Or is this often a reasonable cost idea.".
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I would like to see some pics to understand what we're talking about. Its pretty hard to help people with design decisions based on a written description.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Yes, but it is a strange way of asking it - especially with the title worded this way.
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He does not currently have the architect working on the plans yet Joe.
"Have a 1956 ranch style single story house in So. Cal. Doing some remodeling in which the architect is wanting to move an exterior load bearing wall out by about 1 ft.
I will let architect tell me how to do it, but wanted your opinions before I let him make real drawings showing a wall moved only 12 inches..."
See, he is not LETTING the architect work on these plans with his idea of moving it only one foot. This OP knows his archy has a goofy idea.
So he's not actually drawing the plans yet. The OP is waiting to hear what the Archy wants to do because the OP has no idea how the ceiling joists and rafters would be supported and obviously is concerned about something that is not a concern.
It might be a goofy idea to you because you don't know why he wants to move it out 1' yet. Maybe there's a good reason to move it do to a layout the OP wants. The OP seems like his main concern is supporting the ceiling and roof which the OP thinks is impossible and just doesn't understand how to do it yet.
If the OP needs that 1' and can't fit what he wants in that room, no problem and it can be done. Alot of work for 1', but if the OP needs it, it will be costly. If he doesn't need it and can remodel his room without the 1', OP has no worries, right?
Goofier things have happened when remodeling before because a HO wants to have something no matter what. When the OP finds out there's no problem removing the wall and supporting the ceiling and roof and what it costs, he might go for it. If he doesn't like the cost, he doesn't move the wall. He now knows that if he wants what he wants and doesn't have the space, he needs to move the outside wall.
There are times when you need space and have to steal 1' out of another room. It might be a big enough room where it doesn't matter. It might be the back of a big closet where it doesn't matter. Maybe that could be an option for the OP if he needs 1'.We do things like this all the time. There are many options when needing a small amount of room.
Joe Carola
Joe, but he also said that he had OTHER OPTIONS."I will let architect tell me how to do it, but wanted your opinions before I let him make real drawings showing a wall moved only 12 inches, there are other options we can do and not move the wall 12 inches out."That sums up the whole message.Yes, he started out asking about extending the joists. But this is the real bottom, line question..
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Re-joist! Once more I will say, Re-joist! And remove the rafter from your eye!
Beware the architect!
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"Hello Neo..."View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
It may sound like a goofy idea to all you guys living in homes OVER 1200' square feet, but in our little micro ranches out here (mine was built in 1960), 50 sq' can make a HUUUGE difference, especially in the kitchen.Here's an example: If that extra space under the roof is used as a bump out, all of the cabinets and storage can be recessed into that new space. That in turn might open up the center of the kitchen just enough to make a center island practical. That center island may open up possibilities for changing other rooms as well if the dining/entertaining can be done in the kitchen.
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
That house may be pretty small. OP said the ceiling joists are 16' max, all resting on a 50' long outside wall. That makes the area being expanded 800 sq ft or less.BruceT
Yeah, it's less a matter of mechanics sometimes, and more a matter of cost vs value.
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Sounds like your architect has no concern for your money. For all the work you only get 50 sf? What's the cost per square ft?
Of course, I can screw up any good design. If this is the feature that will make the house fabulous then so be it.
OB
Some additional thoughts ....
Moving and reframing the roof ... maybe install roof trusses now. Inexpensive and easy if you are doing some major changing.
If you are trying to slip in a fix ... maybe new ceiling joists e.g. 'I' joists. Lightweight and easy to handle to replace the 2x6.
I'm with many, though ... let the architect figure it out. Double check he is licensed (it should be an easy check on line) and that license is current ... may be able to check any complaints against him as well.
Moving a foot must make a big difference (i.e. is important). A foot can make a huge difference. I assume you are also pouring another footing or some such? Maybe cantilever the floor joists?
If your working with the architect is warm and fuzzy ... let him do his job; but if it seems like he's playing it fast and loose, you are well to be wary.