how to fix insulation & lighting mistake
I recently got bids for blowing more insulation into the ceiling of a 24′ x 20′ living room, to bring it up to R50 or so (this is Montana, and it’s currently <R30 and lumpy fiberglass). Before we started the job, I noticed that the can lights around the room were switching on and off. A little climbing around, and I discover that the lights’ thermal breakers are cycling, because the fixtures aren’t insulation contact rated. They’re also not airtight, so they cause a major air leak into the attic. A little digging into the attic reveals that the installer put tarpaper cylinders around the fixtures to hold the insulation back, and those have shifted over time, allowing the fixtures to overheat.
So, it seems that blowing more insulation is out of the question unless I replace all the fixtures. There are 14 of them, and they’re hard to get at because the ceiling is a curved vault with scissors trusses.
As an alternative, I’ve been wondering about pulling the fiberglass back, leaving he fixtures alone, sealing the soffit vents, and switching to foam insulation under the roof deck. I don’t have a bid yet, but suspect that the added cost of foam would be paid for by not having to replace all the fixtures.
So, is that crazy? Should I worry about moisture, or overheating the roof deck (asphalt shingles on top)? Any preference for polyurethane or icynene for this application?
Thanks for thoughts.
Tom
Replies
I would be absolutely sure that a retro-fit of the lighting was out of the question before pursuing other options.
If you can get the old cans out (even in pieces), then install remodel /"old work" style IC cans from below, then the job can resume as originally planned.
my $.02.
Thanks ... didn't realize that remodel cans were available airtight & IC. I'm going to hate this job though... crawling through fiberglass and skinny trusses ... ugh.
Tom
"I'm going to hate this job though... crawling through fiberglass and skinny trusses ... ugh."That's the point of a remodel can. You would have to crawl around in your attic if you decided to replace with new construction cans, but remodel cans allow you to do all the work from the underside.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yeah, but I sill have to crawl to disconnect and remove all the old cans!
Tom
Shouldn't have to. Just take out the bulb, the trim ring, loosen and pull out the can or pot..un nut the wires from the built in J box. working through the hole, ypu should be able to pry, saw or yank out the fixture mounts.
Install the re-do can just the opposite.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Now I see the light, so to speak. I was thinking in terms of carefully removing the old ones, to give them to the local Habitat. But since they're old, not airtight, and their thermal breakers trip at the drop of a hat (with a 15 watt CFL), I'm not sure I'd be doing anyone a favor. Thanks.
Tom
Tom, what make are the cans? Find out and see if you can swap out just the dome part of the can (with an airtite IC)-not the housing that's trapped above the ceiling. The "can" can be unscrewed and will drop out of the housing. The electric connection is in the two sided access box, now visible.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
We all forgot to warn him of all the razor sharp edges.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
oops.
Here's another reminder=don't drop the screws.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Last spring I built a HUGE floor to almost cieling recessed book case. The proposal included puck lights above in the case.
HO said maybe can spots would be more better..OK. I agree. Her son is an Ele. Eng. and will rout the feed and switch leg. L&P old house. THEN she says he will install the cans...OK. Adjust price.
I m ready to install and HO says, "can you patch plaster?" Well, sure..So as I load up, I include a coffee jug of 45min mud, and some touch up spackle.
I get there and about shi*...he installed NEW work cans, and the cieling holes were about 16" sq. and all the plaster was busted from the lath...arrrgghhhh. No way did I have enough "fix-it" stuff with me..and it's a 12' cieling, all up on a 12' step ladder, and you know how wide they are at the open base..now picture that between a Fireplace and a wall..that won't allow the ladder to open all the way, and rotated, the top is too far away from the holes..so it's all a REACH or a OMG, somebody hold the ladder.
I was dropping globs of mud on my wife as she held the ladder..LOL
MAn, what a mess...moral, don't let the HO's son install lighting..I did add on for the fix and they would have been WAY ahead letting me install retro cans.
BTW, they went to Lowes and the sales man told them to use these..new work cans, even when told it was going i an existing cieling..Arrgghh. I made $$ for the repairs, but it was money I'd rather not have had, for all the hassel.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
About all I celebrate in homowner assistance is tearout.
And sometimes that even is a stretch.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Here it was..
On an 8' ladder.
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
That is what I was trying to say. You can cut, pry, clip etc the old can out. After you get it loose from the fastening points pull through the hole and disconnect the wire. Then use a new remodeling unit to replace. All done from inside the house. Time consuming but not hard. DanT
Dan, don't you think that if you stay with the existing can manufacturer-you could by new work IC's/airtites, unscrew the 3 screws holding the can to the housing-and then swap them out in the existing housings?
Be worth calling Halo/juno/whatever or even just giving one a shot, no?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Worth a shot. Never considered it. Hmmm. Must be my slow mind or your quick one. Or maybe you are much ol..........er....ah....experienced than me. Yeah, that must be it. :-)
I think it would be worth a call. The homemade box idea above is worth a try. I would have never tried it simply because we have to warranty our installs so going with a rated manufactured item would be our choice. You wouldn't want to use the wrong material, size, spacing etc and have a fire. Liability guys would frown on that one. But for your own house you could try one if you wish and see how it goes. I prefer to stay in the non crawl side myself. DanT
Right ... the clearance seemed like an issue. It's been a while since I was up there, but I think the stickers on the existing cans wanted a lot of open air above - 12 or maybe even 24 inches. That makes the boxes difficult.
Tom
I think you can change those from the bottom side. As the previous poster pointed out they may come out in pieces but it can be done. We have done that on a couple of occasions although not that many fixtures. But it sound like it is worth doing. DanT
Not sure why others haven't mentioned.
Option B : construct boxes to go over the recessed light fixtures to allow coverage by insulation. We often did it in the Northwest on new construction before IC rated fixtures were readily available.
Some people made these w/ polisoy foil faced foam, wallboard, and OSB/plywood.
If the IC retrokit works, fine, but if you want other alternatives, this may fit the bill.
This is one reason why I avoid recessed lighting ...
Hate the stuff.
Jeff
add cyclinders made from snap lock stove pipe as insulation dams for the cans you can get to from above....
replace the other inaccesable ones as already sugested...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Change the floods (just the lamps) to PAR 30 CF floods - much less heat.
Forrest
Edited 12/8/2008 10:39 am ET by McDesign
just a shot in the dark, here, but couldn't you lower the temp by using flourecent bulbs?
Remove those incandescent flood lights and install the CFL flood light that use just 20 watts each.
That's not a bad idea, but in my experience you need to be careful which brands/models of CF bulbs you put in cans. The bulbs don't like the way heat gets retained and fail early, which negates the whole cost-saving reason to buy the bulbs.Last I looked Phillips was making some CF bulbs rated for can use.Scott.