Hello,
I’m wondering what your advice to me would be to nicely motivate my framer. The situation is that I perceive that he and his crew are much more capable of working faster. I’d like him/them to be more efficient, but I don’t want to offend him by appearing to be an overlord. I do have a fixed price contract [with performance based payment schedule], so I’m not worried about getting raked over the coals price wise, I just want my house dried in as quickly as possible so there is less exposure of everything to the elements.
Some specific areas of inefficiency that bother me:
- long breaks/chat time
- only work 1/2 day in Friday even if they lost a day or two to weather
- the owner doesn’t delegate well; for example,
-
- he’ll go up a ladder and nail a top plate while his worker stands there, or
- rather than laying out the next wall, he’ll work with his guys on nailing the sheathing …
- bouncing around jobs; he sometimes takes a worker or two off the job and puts them somewhere else [he’s only ever had 4 guys max. on the job; and sometimes only 2]
Well, none of this stuff is spelled out in the contract, so I have no legal standing to demand any other performance [although he did tell me before they started, that they take 1/2 day on Friday; I just figured they would work the whole day if they lost a day to rain].
Here are some things that I have done to help him out:
- bought wall jacks for him to use to raise the larger, heavier walls
- loaded sheathing on the deck
- shleped (carry) lumber
- precut some rigid foam insulation for headers and even installed it on the bands
- offered to loan him my book on “the very efficient carpenter”
So, how to motivate him? What motivates you framers? That’s the question.
Thanks,
Roger <><
Replies
I assume you're the home owner? Sometimes it take 4 1/2 days to do 7 days work.
We're now trying to trim a job that was "a cheaper price" and "pushed" to finish. The owner passed the savings point for a cheap job 2 weeks ago and we still have another week of straightening out. Be patient the job just started.
Sounds like fairly ingrained work habits you're up against there. Offering to loan the book is going to be perceived as an insult, and you really don't want to do that. Moving their material is going to make you a meddler and a person underfoot, and you don't want that either. The payment schedule is already in place and that doesn't appear to be working, so... I think you're going to have to live with it. Compared to other stories we hear all the time, your concerns are minor.
Are they doing a good job? What is the dollar amount of the labor contract (or labor+materials if that's what it is) and what's the square footage of the house?
I offered the book in a stack of other carpentry related books [he already told me he hadn't built a house from scratch in about 3 years], so I don't think it was real obvious.
They are doing a great job, so there is no complaint there (although, I could accept within a 1/8" to 3/16" tolerance or more; rather to within the 16th inch tolerance they seem to be working under).
The contract works out to about $5.50/sq foot for a 5000 sq foot house. About 1/3 of the square footage is under roof (house is single story with full height wall in back).
Roger,
First off, don't ever mention any thing to your framer about their breaks, how he handles his crew, etc. I can't imagine that doing anything but hurting the situation.
Secondly, tell us about your "performance based payment schedule". Does this mean he won't get a draw until the floor is framed, for instance, or does he make more money if they finish a week ahead of schedule?
Thirdly, I wouldn't put too much stock in the contribution that you have made to the work effort. I'm sure you did a lot of grunt work, but in situations like this it can be more of a hindrance than a help.
Buying him wall jacks was nice, but did he want them? If he's a professional he probably has his own system that works for him. You're effort to help *might* be construed as meddling.
Finally, to attempt to give you something to beneficial, I would have a talk with him. Express your concern about your shell being exposed to the elements. DO NOT express your concern about how his crew work or his delegating abilities. Focus on the problem.
Money might be a motivation for him. If you offer him a bonus for early completion this could help.
Ultimately you really don't much of a leg to stand on. Since the contract is vague with regard to schedule that will be of no help. I assume you're an owner builder so you really can't put much pressure on the guy.
Good luck.
Jon Blakemore
The performance based contract is just the payment schedule according to what is accomplished (e.g. first payment: first floor complete; second payment: second floor complete; third payment: roof on ...; fourth payment: framing complete; final $1000 when inspection passes).
He was a bit sceptical on the wall jacks at first, but after he raised a 50' long 2x6 wall (10' high) sheathed, ... with just he and one worker, he was sold on the idea and much appreciated them. [I only purchased them after we talked about it and he agreed to give them a try.]
I did give him a 5% bonus in the first payment, but that wasn't for performance, it was just a thank you; So that's a good idea to tie the bonus to perofmance.
thanks for the advice.
So, how to motivate him? What motivates you framers?
Self.
Roger, go buy the book First Break All the Rules. You'll know everything you need to know about motivating workers.
Don't use a money bonus as an incentive. That will only lead to anger and it will unmotivate them.
Do make your expectations clear. Appeal to the superstar within them. When you see something that pleases you with regards to speed, offer a hearty approbation.
Quit doing their work.
Get out of the way.
Set the bar high and let them know you are counting on them.
Schedule the roofers/painters and everyone behind them. Tell them the schedule. Tell them that your schedule is very important. Let them be a part of making the schedule. Ask them for suggestions that would allow you to speed up the schedule. If you let them devise the timesaving system, they'll take ownership of it. If you try to ram something down their throat, they'll resist it.
If your schedule was important to you, that should have been the first clause/terms in the contract. Now, you're in damage control.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue: there is some very good stuff in your post. A lot of people work in management their whole career and never figure out what you stated so succinctly.
Self. That's saying a mouthful. How many people are out there trying to "motivate" thier workers, but don't realize we all motivate ourselves. Reminds me of the story of the manager who went to the bowling alley after work one day. He watched his most lackluster employee bowl a strike, and start jumping and hooting. Seems he was't as unmotivated as the boss had thought, he just never had anybody tell him when he 'bowled a strike' at work. If you bowl in the dark, how excited you gonna get?
Do make your expectations clear. Appeal to the superstar within them. Yeah, communication. Its the key to every successful relationship. Seems obvious, but again, how often do managers "assume" that everyone knew what they never said?
When you see something that pleases you with regards to speed, offer a hearty approbation. Most every manager out there is trying to catch their workers doing something wrong, so they can punish them. The few really good managers are trying to catch their workers doing something RIGHT so they can reward them. Even animal trainers have figured this one out, but very few managers have.
Quit doing their work...Get out of the way. So true. You have to give trust. Kinda like being a coach - you cant get out there and play the game for the guys. You do the best you can to fulfill your part (which is to see that they have the skills and the tools needed), and then trust them to do theirs.
Set the bar high Again, this is part of the communication channel. By "setting the bar high" you're giving them a goal to aim for. That's why we get excited when we bowl a strike, or hit a home run. Very few managers give prompt feedback on excellent performance.
...and let them know you are counting on them. This is important. Let them feel the weight of your expectations, as well as the responsibility of your confidence in them. When I used to super commercial jobs, I would always call the subs ahead of time, and let them know they were on the calendar for such-and-such a date, and that I had really been working to get all the ducks lined up for them, and my schedule would really be screwed if they let me down. Which ties into your next point...
Schedule the roofers/painters and everyone behind them. Tell them the schedule. Tell them that your schedule is very important. Let them be a part of making the schedule. Ask them for suggestions that would allow you to speed up the schedule. If you let them devise the timesaving system, they'll take ownership of it. A lot of what you're saying here is a matter of empowerment - giving the crew some input and influence on their work environment. Too many managers fail to realize that the collective wisdom of an entire crew will always surpass the "stellar" insights of one lone manager. Tapping into the synergy of that pool of experience/insight can blow obstacles away that otherwise seemed insurmountable.
Thanks for a great post!
Your Framer runs his biz the way he runs his life.
He's not likely to agree with your assessment of his methods, or to even see what you're upset about.
What do you think would happen if you were to present your wife with the same sort of list of "What you're doing wrong".........
Joe H
What motives a framer?
Two things, money and pride. That's about it.
Basically, it's too late Roger..... get out of the way and let 'em get 'er done. If your schedule was this important to you, it should have been WAY up front in your contract with him. If it wasn't, then you live and learn.
I know you think you're helping out, but it really doesn't matter in the long run. It's harsh, I know, but it's the truth. You're not going to motivate these guys to work any harder or faster unless you offer up some kind of whiz-bang bonus if they complete the house by 'such and such' a date. But even then, you risk just getting sloppy work instead.
Here's what motivates me as a framer.... two things. First and foremost.... money. Sounds nasty doesn't it? But that's the way it has to be.... I'm running a business. If the money isn't rolling in regularly, then what the he11 am I doing getting out of bed at 5am everyday and crawling home at 7pm ish? Why am I home already on a Friday at 2:40pm and yet we've already got 55 hours in this week and are heading back out for 7am tomorrow while the rest of the world is raking their yards on a sunny Saturday afternoon?
And the other reason.... pride. I love nothing more than peering up through the windshield of the truck at the end of the day and saying "dammm that was good day, look at all them sticks we piled up today". I love it... sometimes even more than the money. I love when our progress is blatantly obvious to the untrained eye of a neighbor passing by. It just feels awesome.
If your framer isn't motivated by those two things on his own, without your help, you ain't gonna make a bit of difference in his performance and/or output.
If your schedule isn't getting totally blown out of the water, and you're pleased with the quality of their work.... just let it roll. You'll only make things worse by mucking around in it. Subtle hints will only serve to aggravate him and make for a bad relationship and environment.
Another thing to keep in mind with your subs... This is your house, not theirs. So while you are full of pi$$ and vinegar every morning and raring to go.... it's just another day at the office for them. They've probably got 10 years of this kind of mileage on their bodies and have to get through another 10 years of it with that same body. So don't be surprised if they don't share your enthusiasm. Doesn't mean they don't care about you or the project, but you're sprinting and they're running a marathon.
Great post Diesel!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
posts like yours make visiting this site so worthwhile
thanks
all considerate good posts
Thanks for your advice. That's basically what I'm doing; stepping out of the way. I'll get the right materials on the job at the right time, answer his questions, check with him if I need any change requests, and the rest is up to him. He does have pride in his work, and I feel like he is doing a good job.
He's also happier when we feed him.
Our schedule isn't the most important thing in the world, otherwise I would have hired the guy who would have put a crew of 10 on the job for three weeks. I just hate seeing the work exposed for that long a preiod of time before dry-in.
OK... they're doing a great job, they're not the fastest but the tolerances are tight. What's not to like?? The frame can get wet, it's not that big a deal, just don't use propane heaters to dry it out after it's closed in.
If you were like some of the owners that post here, the framer would have taken a big advance from you, sited the house on the wrong part of the lot, poured concrete way out of whack, done a few days of framing, then disappeared and gone completely unreachable. There are a couple of threads about problems like these right now (one is 'Ubuildit' or something like that).
I'd say you're batting a thousand right now... your crew rocks... keep buyin' em lunch!
Well, I've taken the advice to step out of the way and let them work. I observed many inefficiencies in their work along the way and said little or nothing about it. So far it's been 16 weeks for 5 men to frame a 5000 sq ft house, there is about two weeks to a month to finish up some minor details like windows, stairs, boxing, furring out cathedral, tray ceiling. To my way of thinking this is way too slow.
He actually asked me to raise the contract price by $7000 to cover his extra time. I offered to advance on the last payment, but that's it.
The window rep who has been holding windows for me since February said that any other builder would have run him off the job a long time ago.
How to motivate your framer?
Rent a crane...
calculate finished ridge hieght of house...
add six feet...
suspend a keg of beer from the crane at the resulting height so framer wiil be able to reach beer whle standing on finished peak...
Order lumber and stand back!!
Witty tagline...
Hahahahahaha!!!
JEEZUS!!! That house isn't done yet?
I stand very much corrected. That's a real bummer Roger. If I were your framer I'd be expecting to get back charged for carrying costs, never mind looking for more money. That's rotten.
One word of advice, don't advance that last payment unless you really don't want this thing to get finished any time soon.
For a little perspective. I'm down to a three man crew. We started a 4500 sqft house two weeks ago today and lost 3.5 days to bad weather last week. Today we finished the blocking and hardware on the second floor TJI's, then my guys decked it while I cut and installed the stairs to the second deck. If this thing didn't have so many porches (75' of farmer's porches) and so much exterior trim we could easily be out in another two weeks with good weather. And we are by no means the fastest around either. We keep a very competitive pace with the three of us and the machine, but I've seen 5 and 6 man crews that are about twice as fast.
Do they work everyday on your house, or is he juggling a bunch of jobs at once? Is it a very complicated house or something? I'm just curious. 16 weeks is crazy.... I need to take down about $80G or so in that much time. He must be broke.
ditto's dp. I have 2 crews, one devoted to specs, 1 for customs. On my crew I average 3 guys including myself. We finished 6400sqft in 7 weeks, and I was ashamed. To see pics http://www.legacyframing.com click under construction. There was a lot to that house, including all the vaults and rounded details. By the way, we average around $4.00 sqft so we have to be fast or starve. Goodluck!
It's a big house but not complicated (basically 3 rectangles, 2800 sq ft first floor with 10' ceilings, then second floor is mostly under roof, one porch the length of the main part of the house, 3 dog house dormers, one big eyebrow dormer).
Like I said in a previous post, they took long breaks, came late, left early. He had some other work, but not much.
His work was ok, but had at least one worker who couldn't follow the nailing schedule on the plywood sheathing, so I had him take the house wrap off and re-nail it. There were a number of other mistakes too, most of which I either fixed myself or paid the cost of materials wasted. Now they have gone overboard and are nailing every 4 inches, even though I told them "6 inches on the edge and 8 inches in the field".
I did like the advice from one responder to go into the site screaming and throwing materials around, but since I've advanced more than half of the last payment I don't want them to run off.
I feel about like Brian does... that is quite a long time.
I spent part of the last two weeks framing special details in a new house. It's about 1800 SF and was framed in about 6 days by a large crew from somewhere else. They did such a bad job that I started a thread here about it. Things were hideously out of level, out of plumb, out of alignment, etc. Studs are inconsistently cut so that there are gaps at the top or the bottom of many of them. Truss spacing varies from 22" to 23" and many of the bottom chords are way out of line (because the trusses were warped into place and/or installed out of plumb or both). Eave overhangs vary and it's visible if you sight the fascia. Interior and exterior walls are out of plumb and it's so significant that hanging an interior door would be virtually impossible... so I corrected those areas, at much expense to the owner. When the sheetrockers come they will start groaning and the owner will soon be paying more than the bid so that they can deal with the poor framing conditions. When the stucco man comes he will charge a bunch more to deal with all of the sheathing nails that are not flush so that they won't perforate his paper. It goes on and on.
So... how are they doing on your house? If you walk around with a long level and a tape, are things plumb, level, parallel, straight, aligned, and all that good stuff? Is everything tight, solid, and clean? If so, I'd take a deep breath and wait for them to leave. If they did a good job it will be a nice thing for you for many years, and it will make your subs' work easier. If they didn't... beat the snot out of them.
Wow,
The last house I framed for a living I knew would be the last one so when one helper got arrested for DUI and the other wrecked his car and couldn't get to work I decided not to replace them. My 71 y/o father-in law and I framed 4000sqft in about 6 weeks and I thought that was way too slow.
Even for $7 a foot this guy would only be getting 35K for this. His wife must have a hell of a job.
Good one.
"A problem cannot be solved by the same thinking that created it." Albert Einstein
Another thing to keep in mind with your subs... This is your house, not theirs. So while you are full of pi$$ and vinegar every morning and raring to go.... it's just another day at the office for them. They've probably got 10 years of this kind of mileage on their bodies and have to get through another 10 years of it with that same body. So don't be surprised if they don't share your enthusiasm. Doesn't mean they don't care about you or the project, but you're sprinting and they're running a marathon.
Good points, Diesel. I couldn't help but think about that "bouncing around jobs" point also - I hate doing it myself, but I think if you told every new job "I can't show up until I'm completely finished with the job I'm on right now", you very likely won't have a job to go to when you finish this one. So you spread yourself out during the interim between winding up on one and starting up on another. People don't realize we don't like it either, its just a fact of life.
sorry, rog.. i had a good chuckle about your problem. Don't it drive ya crazy sometimes?
Most lumber and sheeting is designed to withstand the occasional rain day..
as for his practises,i suspect your replies are correct, he ain't gonna change much..
Since pride and money seem to be taken care of, i can only suggest you buy a case of beer for the crew on friday at 4pm, and let the boss know in advance it'll be there.
After money and pride, beer is next on a framer's hierarchy of needs.
Well, Diesel and others summed up what I was gonna say, with one exception.
I really don't care for the 'nit-picking' of this guy's work habits. I work 4 8 1/2 hr days and 6hrs on Friday. The last thing I wanna hear is some HO asking/telling me to work a whole day, regardless if there was a rain day.
We[framers] do have lives,too. Erands to run,things to do,etc.
< long-extended breaks/lunch> Kinda like the average office worker, playing on the 'puter on company time or taking a 'ehemm'sick day to go play golf. Yep, you could've had worse. I know bunches of crews that would work 7 days/week[time and a half$] but could care less about quality. Just so long as that big paycheck is there. Been there...done that.
ahh....what was the question ?
If you don't mind me being blunt, Roger. You should mind your own business and let the framer mind his. If you know so much why aren't you framing it? I don't mean to be offensive, I'm sure your intentions are good. How would you like it if someone came into your bedroom and showed you how it ought to be done?
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You've got it good RogerD.
They show up, they're sober, the work is tight, materials are not being wasted or stolen, there have been no screwups or injuries, they're polite. Take the advice given here by the others (i.e., stay interested, get out of the way, and don't micro-manage), and you'll end up with a house frame that'll stand square, plumb and level, and stay that way.
These framers are actually saving you time and money. Here's why:
With a true frame, the windows, doors, trim, siding, flooring, tiles, cabinets/counters, and roofing will go up like a charm. And each of these subtrades will be happy being there doing the best they can on your home, because they're working on something that's true for a change.
Enjoy your new home, it sounds like you're GCing a winner.
I would agree with all the replies ,especially the deisels post .but thats because he frames.being a framer i'm a bit partial.
seems to me that most good framers thrive on speed.Otherwise why frame.Some homeowners and even builders get all excited when the floors sheated in a day,then it looks like not much is happening for a day or so,then "BAM"the first floor is up.that stuffs the gravy.Ther's alot to it. Thats the house being built.the other guys attach to it ,drill through it and hope thers a framer on site to cut em some blocks and walk them through the drawings.
JUST A FRAMER.
Wow.
...
ok ... uh ... how about U start pretending you know how to do your own job ... and stop pretending U know how he should do his?
That might be a start?
It'd work for me.
btw .... it's been bugging me all week now ... just how long should my breaks be?
Thanx in advance!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
you don't get breaks... no stop f'n off and get back to work!
R. D.........Tell youre framer about Breaktime. Tell him that BTrs are his kind of people.
Sheesh this is crazy... whats with all this touchy feely advice yer giving him? You show up at random times 4-5 times a day and BLOW YER STACK!! scream and swear, rant and rave, throw things - that'll get 'em moving. Works best if your face gets really red when you shout.
And then the framer walks...... good advice. That'll fiix his schedule problems.
I haven't read all the responses yet, but take a day off for rain?!? You gotta be kidding me. You guys in dry areas sure don't know what it's like to live in a rainy part of north america. if we took days of for rain there would be times when we'd be taking the whole month off.
I do know that when some guy from back east or where ever shows up on a site here he sure gets some funny looks as well as the comments to go with it when he starts to pack up a the site of rain. where's your rain gear we ask em .... what's rain gear? they say.... lol