This may be a tad complicated to explain but here goes. I need help figuring out how to offset the load on a bearing wall. Here are the details.
A bearing wall exists between a KT and LR. The entryway between the KT and LR is about 3’6″ wide. The HO wanted part of the wall to make a passthru upon which to install a countertop to make an “island bar” type of situation and to open up the KT and LR by giving a feeling of more space. The HO wanted me to remove a 6′ tall by roughly 6′ wide top part of the bearing wall to make the passthru.
Well, I did that. I went on the HO’s answer that they had trusses, and so at the time I did this passthru I was believing there were trusses up there…until I went up to reroute the electrical and saw it was standard framed roof. The wall where I removed the passthru section has ceiling joist overlaps above, so it was clearly bearing. The only thing though that it is bearing is the weight of the ceiling material and ceiling drywall, though, and of course a person who may on very rare occaisions get up and walk in that section of the attic.
With me making the passthru that makes the span of unsupported ceiling joists not roughly 9 feet. There was a double recessed header over top the existing entryway into the KT, and of course the end of that header was supported by the double 2x “post” that formed the end of the wall that I took out to make the passthru.
The HO wants a 12″ downward header overtop the passthru to give it some definition vs being a flat ceiling between rooms. I created that “header” out of 2x and cripples. As it is installed now it supports nothing, it’s doing nothing andit won’t do nothing. It’s purely decorative as the HO wanted. But when I discovered the wall truly was bearing I didn’t know what to do. I need to transfer the load over about 6 or 8 inches because….the countertop to be mounted is 23″ wide. 4″ of the top is to protrude into the LR, the remaining is to cantilever into the KT. The HO wants a column there again for decorative purposes and appeal. The column is to sit on the countertop. Under the countertop where the column will sit I installed a wing wall with double 2×6 header (the column will be about 5′ tall in all, solid wood and heavy, thus the wing wall construction with a header to hold the weight). The column is to be centered on the countertop, so since it is cantilevered into the KT that offsets my column about 6 or 8″ from under what was the then bearing wall and as such it offsets from the false header as well. What I planned to do with that was to build a box out of 2x to hang off the side of the false header to have the column run into and for the cap to be positioned on to make it look attractive rather than have the column run into the ceiling and looking stupid.
So my dilemma is…the column is a load bearing column, it can carry the weight as the wall once did. But I need to be able to transfer the load/weight from the recessed double 2x over the existing entryway, AND the ceilling joists above the passthru, I need to transfer it over about 6 or 8″ so that it actually bears on the column then. Is there a way of xferring the load?
I was thinking about running a 12′ long 2×8 across teh top of the ceiling joists in the attic and nailing it with simpson strong ties to create a strongback, with the 2×8 running over top the column figuring that being a strongback as long as the column is about midspan of the 9′ opening it’ll work fine. But I’m not resting well at night yet with that idea, wondering if there is a better way. I cannot move the false header and make it a real bearing header because if I did, then the other end of it would be smak dab in front of the fridge, couldn’t open the doors. So the false heder must stay, I need to figure out how to xfer the load.
BTW, the column position puts it in the middle of a ceiling joist span, I don’t have the luck of it being right under a ceiling joist. When I add the 2x box for it to terminate into that box will come down 12″ also to match the bottom of the false header. The false header and box will appear as one unit when DW finished. I wouldn’t have this problem if the countertop didn’t cantilever ito the KT and I could center the CT over the old partition wall portion. But that it needs cantilevered so far into the KT, throws me for a loop.
Long on detail, just trying to give a lot of info to get a good answer from someone.
Replies
Got a picture? That would really help things.
Also....not to kick you while you're down but..... you really removed a wall on a HO's word that it wasn't bearing? Or the remote possibility (that's sarcasm) that they may have their nomenclature mixed up? Even if it was trusses, they should have been looked at as they could still be relying on that bearing wall, not all trusses clear span.
That being said..... it sounds like you've got a 9' span of ceiling joists you need to take up, and you have a couple bearing points you can use with your columns, and they wouldn't mind seeing a header separating the space. Sounds do-able. I can't tell you the specifics because, honestly, I nodded off while reading that post of yours. I'll give it another look though and see if I can't offer you something a little more useful than a scold followed by a nod. ;)
LOL, Diesel, no prob, I know it was long on details, only wanted to provide a lot of info to attempt to ward off as much confusion as possible.
Yeah, I'll eat crow, I took the HOs word it was trusses. Reason I took his word is <sheepily> I knew he used to do remodeling himself. Imagine my surprise when I went up to the attic to reroute the electric and had one of those Oh <blank> moments.
the ceiling joist laps seem pretty strong, because even after discovering the new issue, I went ahead and did the rerouting and was walking all over the things for a good while and there was no evidence of noticable deflection. Now if I jumped up and down, was hammmering, and all that sorta stuff, I might've wound up elsewhere :)
I'd show a pic, but BT won't let me add attachments anymore??? I click it, it just sits there. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
After reading your original post several times (and still not getting a clear picture of what you have and what you want) I think I have a glimmer of what's going on and so my question is: Why does the solid wood column have to be centered on the counter? For appearance sake? Seems like putting it 8" in from centered wouldn't mess the looks up that much.
If it must be offset, my next idea is this: Put a double column or maybe a wall about a foot wide, perhaps with decorative holes in it, so you catch the load that way--I'm picturing a narrow wall running perpendicular to the header above and parallel to the length of the counter. Is that making sense? If that would look strange, perhaps you could run a non-load-bearing wall the same way at the other end of the counter--sort of framing in the ends of the counter.
Sorry if I'm totally misunderstanding, but in any event, it may prompt more ideas!
Hey you tried, and you did well, you DID give me an idea, though it's not what you suggested, but it made me think of how to do it and I bet I got it figured all out now. Your idea helped me think of it, so way to go.
To answer you one question, why does the column need to be centered to the countertop, the CT has a full radius curve on the one end. If I set the column directly under where the bearing all used to be then it'll look a bit silly having an 8" column with its base sitting off center of the CT, not to mention, the base itself would likely be hanging off the edge of the CT, too, or close to it since it's a 10.5" base.
At any rate, you inspired me with the idea that I needed. THANKS!!!!!!!If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Glad I helped! Sometimes you just need to be sort of shaken loose from a way of thinking by having a new way of looking at it--even if it turns out to be worng! ;-)
Hope it all works out for you.
Like DP, I found it incredulous that you preoceded to do structural work without confirming for yourself that there were trusses up there. But no problem done. You could tear the wall apart again and turn the cosmetic header into a real header, explaining to the HO that they victimized themselves by providing you with false information, or you could do like you mention by cramming some 2x8 or 2x10 above the cieling joists for a hanging header and hook the joists to it.
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Incredulous, ok, I'll take my medicine. HO used to do remodeling for years. Yeah, I shoiuld've checked myself. Old adage, want something done right do it yourself. <sucker written all over my forehead><g>.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Not trying to be a smartass, but if the homeowner used to do remodeling, why did he hire you to do this job?
Because he got out of it, burnout he says, so he is now a salesman for a furniture company and wants nothing to do with remodeling anymore. Rather have someone else worryabout it.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Willie,
Just replace the false header with a real one. That has to be cheaper than any effective hack you could come up with.
And. . .it's the "Right thing to do."
SamT
I guess you didn't understand the situation, which is fine, I know I was confusing with too much detail.
The new bearing column is offset from where the old double top plate that formed the bearing wall by about 6 or 8". I can't xfer the header over to the column due to having to support the other end and supporting the other end would mean a post going down right in front of the fridge making impossible to open the door. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I guess I'd cut in a flush framed beam and head off as many ceiling joists as you have to to get away from all your obstacles and drop your posts. Not much else you can do Willie. No magic wands or sky hooks currently available. You can then build a false header for aesthetics down into the space for separation. Be glad that's all you have do to, and be glad that the wall was 'only' carrying a ceiling load or you could have had a disaster on your hands.
If you're looking for someone to tell you that the lapped joists are fine as is, I doubt you'll get it here. I know you said you were walking around up there and everything seemed "fine", but I really doubt the view was the same from the floor below you.
You don't think a header above joists in attic would transfer the load? Seems like there was an article about a year and a half ago by a guy in NO doing this, or maybe he was letting it in flush...I've done both ways, and hanging it above is infinitely easier when there is room for it, IMO
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Oh sure... I didn't mean to imply that hanging it above wouldn't work. I think either would work equally well. I just always cut them back and flush frame them. The only real reason why is that I've never seen those long hangers anywhere except the Simpson catalog. Therefore, I always just cut back the joists, slip the hangers on the joists, drop the beam in, and then nail off the hangers.
That's just me though. ;)
I guess my biggest reason for thinking of doing it from above is that I picture the situation as being finished out inside already, and avoiding disturbing that as much as possible - though the idiotic HO who passed bad information deserves an expensive change order for it anyway, esp[ecially since he knew better based on his experience.but now that I think about it, he was probably burned out on remo work because I'll bet he brought things like this down on his own head when he was in business so often that he was going to get shot by some customer...;)
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See, I don't really see this as the HO's problem. I do think that there should be a change order for the additional work, but I think the error falls squarely on the contractor in a situation like this. I just don't really consider attic space to fall under the 'concealed conditions' area of remodeling. Pull down the stairs or go get the step ladder our of the truck and have a quick peak.
Even if you didn't have a look during the design phase, wouldn't you take a peek before you starting swinging the sledge? I'm sure you've seen the crap people store in their attic. What if there was some big old pile of Grandma's china or 1/2 a library worth of paperbacks sitting up there? Ex-remodeler or not, it's my $ on the line too.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'm pretty sure I would've had a look to make sure nothing was coming down on me. Like I said, it's reasonable accessable space, isn't it? You've probably done more remodeling than I ever will, so I appreciate your input. Am I wrong?
I myself would definitely have looked it over my own self.and the OP here should have too, and he admits it.But I can see the situation - HO claims, "I am heap big ex-remo guy. Those are trusses up there so you won't have to do any fancy headering or anything so keep the estimate plain and simple..." so our less experienced friend get bamboozled into proceeding...yeah, I learned a looooonng time ago to not take a HO word for anything unbtil I check it out. Now he has too.
and when an HO tries to stall me away from taking that peek, I tell them, Hey, I might just discover a better, or less expensive way of accomplishing this thing for you...but if they want to keep conditions a secreet, I walk.
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Ahhh yes.
(Said Grasshopper to Sensai)
;)
LOL, is that last line Portugese?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Naw.... dat's Irish.
;)
yeah, I learned a looooonng time ago to not take a HO word for anything unbtil I check it out.
Funny, I thought I learned that lesson, too, on a recent job a few months ago. If anything I'll be less likely to believe a former remodeler hiring a remodeler to do work he could do himself, and therefore, check it myself. <g>If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
but I think the error falls squarely on the contractor in a situation like this.
Diesel, you're right, especially the part about swinging a hammer before looking up to ensure nothing is overhead. This mistake will be filed in my "really dumb stupid mistakes" file for me to learn from. Seriously, it IS my responsibility. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
You don't think a header above joists in attic would transfer the load?
To me that's a strongback, which was my orig idea but I have a better one now I think. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME