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I’m a carpenter who occasionally builds a spec house.
Don’t use concrete people too much. There are two concrete sub’s who do the best work out of the dozen or so outfits in this area, they cost more but are worth it. So I got bids from just them two.
This time company B bid $30,000 and company A bid $32,000 , so I went with company B. In the past I had used company A twice and had never used company B.
Work was to start 3 months later, after a month I had some plan revisions
(switching an area of curb/trenched frost footing to area of 4′ wall on footing) which would have a little cost savings. I called company B , wanted to met and go over new plans, too busy he said, just give us new plans on job site when we do the job. We had a quite a wet spring and
the calm friendly personality of the guy had turned to a stressed out
mood.
Well the conc walls are done and I got the bill. It looks like his calculations are a combination of the two plans. When I did
the math I am certain the bill should be $400 less.
One side of me wants to just pay the bill, since they did a VERY good job and they were still less than company A. Then part of me says should I mention this and call it a bonus. Then part of me says $400 would be nice for my family.
Any thoughts?
I need to decide quick on this , I like to pay my bills promply.
Thanks for any advice.
Derek
Replies
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Pay your bill.
You should know by now, especially after reading any number of posts on this forum, how to run your business.
Your fault for not getting the price down BEFORE the work was done. Can't blame this one on Doug.
And compliment him for the job that you just told us was VERY good.
And don't whine.
*Geez Ralph lighten up.He said he tried to met with the guy and was blown off.And he isn't whining.And who the hell is Doug?
*I'd pay it, If you can find someone who does a very good job and you got a good relationship with ,in the scheme of things 400 bucks is nothing.
*So, are "nice people" the ones that agree with what you really want to do. I don't want to be called names...so...I agree.:)You asked for opinions and Ralph gave you one. And it's probably your best advice. I think your reading into his post things that aren't there. He really isn't an a**hole, er are ya Ralph?So ask him about it, and if he says that's the price, pay it and consider it cheap tution. You did get good work, so it could of been worse.If you already know what your going to do, why ask for advice?Barry
*Thnaks Ron,On that point , should I bring it to his attention?I mean regardless of what that jerk Ralph said,we did have a price established , you know this many $ perln/ft of this type wall and this many $ for ln/ft of this type wall, etc. It is no question a simple human error on his part when doing the math.But ,do I pay the extra $400 with or without some kind of acknowledment? I mean if I give him the extra$400 I could live with that, but how would he know he got a tip or bonus? Thanks,Derek
*Well djk, what would you have done?i One side of me wants to just pay the bill, since they did a VERY good job and they were still less than company A. Then part of me says should I mention this and call it a bonus. Then part of me says $400 would be nice for my family.Of course $400 would be nice for his family and $400 is a nice bonus, but if he mentions this to the guy it comes across as whining. He didn't follow good business practices in determining the final cost.i I called company B , wanted to met and go over new plans, too busy he said, just give us new plans on job site when we do the jobHe had the man on the phone, didn't he? A very good opportunity to confirm the price would not change or if it did, would represent the actual job. But, knowing that the job did change, would you not write up a change order, COMPLETE WITH PRICE CHANGE, and get it signed before the work was started?I think he is learning a business lesson and should be thankful that his new price was not in excess of the other guys bid when everything was over. Both guys really need a primer on this to avoid future, perhaps more costly, misunderstandings.And, giving the man his due for VERY good work will go a long way toward any future dealings with this sub, or with anyone, for that matter. It would also help to give PUBLIC praise for work well done.And Doug accepts all blame for any part of this missive that you disagree with or do not understand. Ask in the tavern about who Doug is if you haven't been around that long.
*Barry,I think Ralph could of been a little more professional with his reply. Implying Derek doesn'tknow how to run his business was uncalled for.Don't you think?I don't understand why you feel you have to defend him, I think he can speak for himself.djk
*Business is business... if you get in the habit of tossing $400 around to every guy you deal with, you may not be in it for much longer. He could have very well overlooked the change come billing time due to the stress or just plain forgot the previous discussion concerning the revisions. I would bring the discrepancy to his attention and hope for an amicable resolution. Good Luck.
*Thnaks Ron,On that point , should I bring it to his attention?I mean regardless of what that jerk Ralph said,we did have a price established , you know this many $ perln/ft of this type wall and this many $ for ln/ft of this type wall, etc. It is no question a simple human error on his part when doing the math.But ,do I pay the extra $400 with or without some kind of acknowledment? I mean if I give him the extra$400 I could live with that, but how would he know he got a tip or bonus? Thanks,Derek
*d j kI'm not defending anyone, just giving an opinion. :)1)I was saying that IMO Derek may have taken the post wrong (it's been known to happen)2) It was advice, which is what he asked for. 3) I agreed4) For the time I've been on this BB, he has never struck me as the a**hole type ( not that there aren't any here)Have a good one, Barry
*Thanks Dan,I know with out the plans and job site to look at this might to confusing.Basically what happened was the prices were established , the ln/ft charges are just as was quoted. But there is a section of the house were I was billed for twice, once as 4' conc on ftg and again for curb w/trenched footing. The total perimeter on the original and revised plans was the same and on the bill the total ln/ft of perimeter add up to more than the house. Derek
*Off to work, be back in 10 hoursDerek
*i What the F do you know about me and how I run my business. We could beat to death what I think I know about you and how you run your business, but.......Should you decide you need the services of another trade in the future it would be in your best interest to have the parameters spelled out before the work is done. It's all well and good that your original agreement spelled out so many feet of that and that BUT the this and that CHANGED.To have me or any sub for that matter come out or redo the calculations could very well cost you more than the original contract in spite of what your calculations say are cost savings.In business dealings you just can't leave the door wide open for interpretation. That's why you have a contract with specs in the first place and is also why you have the followup paperwork such as change orders. If my suggestion that you dropped the ball hurts your feelings......tough.
*I would approach the guy with my checkbook ready, say how much I appreciated the good work and hoped we could work together again in the future. Would like to settle up, just want to check over this item.
*Derek,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*I am I missing something here? Derek stated in post seven (probably should have said it in post one) that he had agreed unit prices for the different foundation/wall combinations. He also alluded to the fact that a simple math error was to blame for the $400 discrepancy. I read this as being either an error/disagreement in measurement or an error/disagreement in calculation. Either way, I can't imagine not discussing the matter with the subcontractor in a non-confrontational manner. One of you is wrong, why spoil a potentially good business relationship over it.It would be different on a lump sum job. Really not worth the effort to argue about IMHO.EricPS. Ease up on Ralph. If you re-read your first post (the one with only part of the critical information) you do sound like a whiney, chiselling hack who admittedly is inexperienced in the area of business you're asking about. And Ralph, welcome to the A$$hole club. I'll be sending your membership card out tomorrow. ;-)
*I second Ian's opinion. Chislers piss people off....pay anythingers are fools. But a polite inquiry is fine and the wise thing to do. I ALWAYS ask a sub why? when his bill goes over, hardly ever is he gouging.
*Derek, you sound like a reasonable guy-- take the advice of Eric and Jim and simply ASK your sub about the discrepancy. My guess is that he will be more than happy to clear any confusion if he wants to keep your future buisiness, and if he gets bent about the question (assuming you approach him REASONABLY), you have just learned that company "A" will be getting your next call. Jeff Hamilton, Portland, OR
*I must be one of those idiots who won't stay in business very long (only 18 years so far) because i TIP my good suppliers and tradespeople. A lazy susan given to wife of the owner of the lumber yard where i trade has paid off many hundreds of times over the cost of the item; for instance, the last time i ordered birch, they'd pulled all the flame-grained stuff specially for me. My concrete guy is so incredibly good that i left a $200 credit for him at the truss manufacturer where he was buying trusses for his new house. I borrowed my neighbor's tractor and while i had it, changed the oil and lubed it--now it's mine anytime i want.Think of the $400 as a darned good investment!
*I can agree with you, with a condition. If the recipient never knows (like an accidental overcharge you just pay), there is no particular investment.Dve
*That's right. I thought of that after the "edit" time was up, but yeah, i let them know i changed the oil.. ;^)
*I'm with Ralph, totally...as far as the a-hole club..I'm not only a member...I'm on the board of directors.
*I was in the same type problem but with the block mason, He quote me $1 a block laid, I furnish all material. Real good deal, real good. 1607 block, two was gables 12 feet up. Did it in 3 1/2 days. the 1/2 day was a rainout. He told me last day that we settle in couple days. I sweated the finally bill. His bill was $300 higher but my labor disappear and his mason did double duty.SoI paid the guy in cash, shook his hand, thank him and will used him again.Moral of story. The change in plans and the rainy spring is worth the extra money if his job performance was good. because of delayed he could of went elsewhere. he has to eat too. You can makeup the extra in other areas.
*when you find a jewel... you don't chuck it out for $400...make sure you keep this guy comming back for more....as has been said...it's an investment ...oh, yeah... do it with a smile...
*Hello everyone,Thanks Ian, Jeff, Jim, Eric, and Joe for the good advice.I went down to Company "B"'s office yesterday morning before work, with checkbook in hand. Met the person who does the scheduling/estimateing ( owner is semi-retired , his right hand man pretty much runs the business), shook his hand , complimented the good work, asked to run through the bill once before I settled up.We spent a couple of minutes going through it, checking off on the plans, and then he turned red and started appoligizing. He said " I'm sorry , I made an error , I knew you said you made a change , and I said , we'd adjust for work actually done based at the appropiate ln/ft & sq/ft rates".Then he said " you gave the new plans to the footing foreman, like I had asked and when we was done he gave them to the wall foreman, and he to the flatwork foreman, and then they were lost and I was figuring the bill off the original estimate and the field guys reports, but it is obvious to me that your calculations are correct and I do appoligize for that".He then went on saying he didn't want a dollar more than what he was do. He said " you could of paid $5000-$6000 less going with any of a dozen of other outfits in town, but you and I both know, that I do the best work in town, that is because I get the best guys , because I pay them the best. I've got 40 guys working for me , with the average length of employeement over 14 years. To be able to do this I have to charge more , but there are enough people out there demanding quality work , that I am never short of work to do".Then he went on to thank me for droping off coolers of cold beer and pop for the guys ( 3 times during the concrete job , I got off work early to catch the guys before they left the jobsite and left them a big cooler of beer and pop). And he thanked me forthe eveings that I went on site and shoveled out the cave ins caused by some rains. And he thanked me for having a portable-johnie set up for them, he said usually the GC don't put them up until AFTER we've been there and gone. And then the great moment, he said It was a pleasure working with me , I was one of the more knowledable, organized , easy to get get ahold , appreciative customers he's had in a long time. And that he looked forward to doing business again with me.Off to work , and I'll remember to hit the "POST" button this time.Derek
*Hello everyone,Thanks Ian, Jeff, Jim, Eric, and Joe for the good advice.I went down to Company "B"'s office yesterday morning before work, with checkbook in hand. Met the person who does the scheduling/estimateing ( owner is semi-retired , his right hand man pretty much runs the business), shook his hand , complimented the good work, asked to run through the bill once before I settled up.We spent a couple of minutes going through it, checking off on the plans, and then he turned red and started appoligizing. He said " I'm sorry , I made an error , I knew you said you made a change , and I said , we'd adjust for work actually done based at the appropiate ln/ft & sq/ft rates".Then he said " you gave the new plans to the footing foreman, like I had asked and when we was done he gave them to the wall foreman, and he to the flatwork foreman, and then they were lost and I was figuring the bill off the original estimate and the field guys reports, but it is obvious to me that your calculations are correct and I do appoligize for that".He then went on saying he didn't want a dollar more than what he was do. He said " you could of paid $5000-$6000 less going with any of a dozen of other outfits in town, but you and I both know, that I do the best work in town, that is because I get the best guys , because I pay them the best. I've got 40 guys working for me , with the average length of employeement over 14 years. To be able to do this I have to charge more , but there are enough people out there demanding quality work , that I am never short of work to do".Then he went on to thank me for droping off coolers of cold beer and pop for the guys ( 3 times during the concrete job , I got off work early to catch the guys before they left the jobsite and left them a big cooler of beer and pop). And he thanked me forthe eveings that I went on site and shoveled out the cave ins caused by some rains. And he thanked me for having a portable-johnie set up for them, he said usually the GC don't put them up until AFTER we've been there and gone. And then the great moment, he said It was a pleasure working with me , I was one of the more knowledable, organized , easy to get get ahold , appreciative customers he's had in a long time. And that he looked forward to doing business again with me.Off to work , and I'll remember to hit the "POST" button this time.Derek
*Well Done Derek.You obviously did more to "cement" the relationship by going to see him. And the coolers surely helped.
*Pay the bill. Sounds like a great guy.
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I'm a carpenter who occasionally builds a spec house.
Don't use concrete people too much. There are two concrete sub's who do the best work out of the dozen or so outfits in this area, they cost more but are worth it. So I got bids from just them two.
This time company B bid $30,000 and company A bid $32,000 , so I went with company B. In the past I had used company A twice and had never used company B.
Work was to start 3 months later, after a month I had some plan revisions
(switching an area of curb/trenched frost footing to area of 4' wall on footing) which would have a little cost savings. I called company B , wanted to met and go over new plans, too busy he said, just give us new plans on job site when we do the job. We had a quite a wet spring and
the calm friendly personality of the guy had turned to a stressed out
mood.
Well the conc walls are done and I got the bill. It looks like his calculations are a combination of the two plans. When I did
the math I am certain the bill should be $400 less.
One side of me wants to just pay the bill, since they did a VERY good job and they were still less than company A. Then part of me says should I mention this and call it a bonus. Then part of me says $400 would be nice for my family.
Any thoughts?
I need to decide quick on this , I like to pay my bills promply.
Thanks for any advice.
Derek