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I’ve got a house, (18,000 sq. ft.) so I use the word “house” loosly, that we are to start very soon. Looks like we’re doing all the interior woodworks less cabinets plus the floors.
I want to acclimate the wood to the house but the homeowner won’t let me turn on the A/C. He’s using ducts with the interior kind of duct insulation and he’s afraid it will build up with saw dust. He has a point. That could be difficult to clean out later unless you folks know some tricks.
My question is: Do I have any options here? Or am I just screwed?
We’re in Dallas where it’s starting to climb into the upper 90’s with the humidity ranging in the 30% range I would guess.
Ed.
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Well Ed, bending that teak is gonna be a lot easier next week?
Any way to rig some filters over the inlets? Maybe the HVAC people would have an idea for you, or some sort of portable ac system? Tell the client he's gonna have to pop for 50 of those window ac units, the neighbors will love it. Joe H
*Ed,i We're in Dallas where it's starting to climb into the upper 90's with the humidity ranging in the 30% range I would guess. You must mean in the 80% to 90% range.30% ain't nothing to worry about, in fact it's very dry.Upper 90's here with 90% + humidity. Been heck trying to paint some exterior doors before I install them. I know what you are going through with the heat and humidity.There are some special filters that you can use over the air intakes and all the vents. Ask the A/C guys about which ones will work best for the unit in the house.James
*I didn't check the weather site before I posted, but it seems that 80 to 90% humidity is more correct.Window units are out. It's all casement windows.The homeowner sez......."no one's gonna turn on the A/C until I move in". Period.Are there exterior units? Anybody seen how they air condition those big tents and such at the rich folk's gatherings?Ed.
*Ed:Here's a suggestion and one I saw used on a home of similiar proportions. In consideration of the amount of wood work in this particular house and the need for dry air, the builder set up 10 large temp units which will naturally be removed once the home is completed. 30% humidity doesn't sound too bad when you consider I see it above 80% for the most of the summer months here in Florida. At 18,000 SF I'm sure this guy can spring for the cost. Without doing so we're all aware of what will happen down the road.
*Ed,Sounds like you need some dehumidifiers. Keep the R.H. about 45%.I did an old house restore years ago and the GC would not get the H&A until the end. Multiple problems showed up just as I said they would.Trim lumber has been getting delivered wetter so I use a moisture meter instead of guessing that it has "acclimated".KK
*Ed,They do have window units for casements. But, man would it take a lot for 18,000 sq ft.:)Hey..check with the Cowboys, they might have some portable units. ;)
*"The homeowner sez......."no one's gonna turn on the A/C until I move in". Period. "Get a lawyer to help you draw up an addendum to the contract discussing the effects of high humidity and drying after the construction process and develop a cost estimate of alternative sources of dehumidification and present the whole thing to the customer. Let the customer choose between accepting all of the problems of no dehumidification and the cost of alternative methods.Also, if the customer can afford 18,000 sq feet, why on earth is he using duct board? Tell him to use the real thing!Don't forget to charge a premium for working in extreme heat (and dehumidifiers will add heat to the environment unless you rig some sort of air handling system.)
*Ed, You have to explain to the guy that you cannot install wood flooring and trim in that humidity and then turn on the air in the house and expect it not to shrink. He has two choices to get rid of the humidity in his house. Either turn on the air or get a few dozen dehumidifiers going. Either way, you guys would be more comfortable working. If he doesn't do this, I suspect you will hear from him down the road as his expensive wood shrinks! By the way, why not have the HVAC guys disconnect the return plenums temporarily from the air handlers and leave the doors to the utility room open to the rest of the house. This will move air slowly to the unit without getting in his return ducts and the positive pressure on the supply ducts will keep any dust from getting into them. You would have to install some kind of a temporary filter over the return inlet, but at least the dust concentration would be minimal at that point.
*Ed,I've run into some similar bone head type customers lately, I'm so frustrated that now I'm just telling them not to call me when gaps open up on their tread returns and laminations pop out on their newel posts, if they want to be pig headed about wasting some electricity on their expensive woodwork then they deserve it!Allen "steamed in St. Louis" Schell
*EdI agree with Bob. Before you go to the expense of an attorney, why not just draw up a memo for the record stating what the high humidity does to wood and what will happen when the client does turn on the HVAC. State in your memo that you will not be responsible for any shrinkage, warping, etc. and have client sign memo.If you do spring for some type of portable A/C units, is the client going to pay for them or does the cost come out of your pocket? You could go to the Orange box and buy a couple of cases of disposable air filters.Vince
*Large portable AC gear is available for the motion picture industry, of which you have a pretty good amount in Dallas. If you don't find AC rentals in the motion picture section of the yellow pages, look for the Victor Duncan company. They're the Panavision licensee in Dallas, and though they won't have AC, they'll know who does.-- J.S.
*Ed,Check with your local Trane, Carrier, HVAC Suppliers. Not the contractors, but the place they buy thier equipment. There is usually only one or two licensed dealers in any one area for the big manufacturers.We use portable a/c units as large as 5 tons in the utility buiseness. The units set outside and have a door curtin much like a blower test door that plugs into the door opening. They are like huge window units on wheels, with the supply and return just like the smaller window shakers. They operate on 240v or 480v. Not cheap to rent or run for long periods, but they do a heck of a job.With 18,000 sq. ft. he has to have a hell of a service panel. Run a couple of temporary circuites from them, add some disconnects with appropriate recpticals and let them rip. Be sure to change the filters as you work. These puppies do a hell of a job for us in power plants where control rooms are temperature sensitive and critical to a units operation.Dave
*You can't gurantee dick if you can't acclimate wood to the atmosphere that's going to exist. At 18K ', that's the size of a small museum. Museums look for somewhere around 50% RH at 20 deg. C., maintained 24/7; change one or the other, and everything in the equation changes.We're talking about a stupid filter here, or the potential for every piece of wood in the house to go spaghettio, and everyone here knows it. At the very least, you're looking at one big go-round-fix-it sometime after the AC kicks in, so why not do it upfront?
*Just tell him that if the ac doesn't go on until he moves in, then the trimwork will be done under his feet.Carps are entitled to be stubborn too. Especialy when it's their livelihood/reputation at stake. And don't fool yourself. If the wood starts to shrink and crack and warp after he moves in, it doesn't matter what the extenuating circumstances are, this man WILL besmirch your reputation every damn chance he gets.
*Ed. You need to find out who's giving your name to these people........Joe H
*It seems like the usual procedure is to acclimatize the trim in the room(s) in which it will be installed AT the final humidity and temperature. Let's say the final humidity would be 30% and the temp. 70º. Now the owner won't let you do that. My suggestion is to find some vacant house or shed or whatever, put your wood in it and controll that temp. to 70º and that humidity to the 30% for a couple of weeks. This should give you the same results. The essentials are the same conditions, not the same location. Hope this is clear.-- Peter
*And then the wood swells during the time after the trim work is done, and before the client moves in. Then shrinks and cracks anyway, after they move in and turn on the air.
*Luka:Good comment. I hope Ed returns to see the many good replies, but pm brings up a point that many may not realize. It seems fairly clear this home is over 5 million perahps ten in dollar construction terms, just by the mention of square footage and location.An educated homeowner of that size should be aware of what will happen over a brief period of time if the area is not acclimated. He or she could be one of those.."I want it this way..or else." We all get some dumb bratty people that won't see it any other way...until.We mention...I need that piece of art that will be picture framed over the hearth..etc. "Oh, no absolutely not, it's stored away..." So where is it stored? Doh! Furniture. They wouldn't possibly store antiques and other valuables in an environment that is not acclimated.. Ed..ask 'em why they don't want to bring that stuff in..just inform them it will be well protected and locked with guard dogs in a swealtering room one month before before the AC is cranked.Good Luck
*Hey Folks,Thanks for your generous replys. Good ideas all.I found an internet (www.etopp.com) web site for portable A/C units. But I didn't think about the movie industry. Victor Duncan used to have a huge set-up out at the Studios at Los Colinas, but now they just go under the name of Panavision-Dallas. I will speak with the builder tomorrow about talking with them. No, I think I will call them myself. Or better yet, I'll go by to prevent the phone chase.Unfortunatly, the builders partner puts no stock in the theory. He's a strange sort. I hope cooler heads will prevail. Get it? Cooler heads?Sorry, my lame attempt at a joke.I'm as serious as a Baptist preacher on Sunday morning about the subject, I just hope I can convince the powers that be.I was by the job today, and the PM told me they are toying with the idea of mist. Can you believe it? A misting system to lower the humdity. You see what I'm up against?Wish me luck.Another question: What would you think the minimum temp should be and the max humidity? What, in your opinion, are the numbers we're looking for?Ed.
*Er,.......Ed? Temp 72°F- 75°F max.. Humidity reading ~45%, or less. You know better than to ask such a question! The punter may be rich, and he may be dumb, but surely not as richly dumb as that??!! However, thinking about it,.......he is in TX, so he could be that dumb, Texas residents being some of the the cheapest rich people I've ever come across. He can afford it now,.........or he can afford five times as much later when it all has to be replaced. It's up to the punter. Put it to him/her that way. Sliante, RJ.hot'n'humidinhoustonasusual.phew
*Ed- Sounds like you need to get a few people straightened out here. The aggravation alone doesn't seem worth what you may gain -or lose. If you are hired for the job and your expertise doesn't supersede the whims of owners, P.M.'s and the like then why did they hire you?
*1) two solutions occur to me: have an A/C contractor quote on filtering all the returns..(best )second best: hire or buy commercial dehumidifiers and geta nd monitor the RH to 30% - 40%.. and then put it to the PM..here's the problem..here's the solution..and here's what happens if we do what the owner says instead of what's good for the owner....if he ignores you or gets overridden have your attorney put it in writing.. and get it signed off as a normal change order....then you can give the ole Col.Klink..."i know nuttink"
*Sgian,You're in Houston????? Hell, I thought you were across the creek in England. Where did I get that idea? I think everybody ought to post where the heck their from with each post.Yeah, I know the best case, but I'm curious what you folks think are the minimums. I'd settle for a constant 80 degrees with 50%.Mike,Hello? The guy ain't gonna turn on the A/C no matter how much I rationalize the consequences (sp?). It's the same guy that won't let me laminate the teak. Sorry. Different house, same owner. He may be bone headed about some things, but you got to admire the fact that he wants what he wants and has the finacial fortitude to back it up. My kinda guy. Although frustrating from the standpoint of the guy who has to pull it off.I'll recommend 78 degrees and 45%. I'll tell them that's what the experts (you guys) say.Why did they hire me? Because I'll put up with this kind of bull for time and material. Do I have clout? You bet. But not enough to overpower the man with the money. That would be foolish to try. I speak my peace and if they listen, they listen. If not, then there you go.I've already sent the letter to the builder to cover my rear.Thanks,Ed.
*It's too bad no one has the spine to stand up to the money. On another thread almost everyone who posted agreed that money was not the be all, end all. But here, it's his way or the highway!Since neither you or the builder can get the man to do what is right, then you have to CYA, even if it means springing for the lawyer who can write an addendum to your contract(s) preventing him from coming back at you when all that fine work ends up in the landfill. Or, you can bite the bullet and find other work. It's one thing to solve thorny technical problems but quite another to be forced to perform substandard, shitty work, which it will be if you do it his way.On a more positive note: If you can find a monster portable A/C unit for rent as has been suggested, there should be no reason why you can't fire that baby up and keep it running until Mr. Uncooperative decides it's time to run his own unit(s). Just add the cost to his bill plus something for the aggravation. His ductwork will be nice and clean and smell like new fiberglass when he moves in.
*What does your contract state as far as who would pay for the portable unit. If it isnt addressed then maybe you got to stick to your guns and tell the PM A/C or go find someone else. What im concerned is when the nice expensive woodwork your installing turns to crap and the "Stick to his guns my way or the highway" homeowner is looking to go after someone, The someone will be you. Definately make sure you get everything in writting and even make conversation records. This sounds like a potential case for selective amnesia. Where the only one who remembers what was said/agreed upon is you and the HO and PM suddenly dont remember or cant recall anything. ive been victem to that sort of thing before.
*i It's the same guy that won't let me laminate the teak. Man, what does this guy do? Two big projects on at once? Hope all goes well.Jon- Chicago
*How about building a "tent" out of thick plastic drops with the seams taped together, the kind they do for asbestos removal, covering walls, floor and ceiling. And put a couple of dehumidifier units in there to create a low humiditiy room to dry out the wood. The problem is how to get the wood dry, not how to build while covering your ass. Never tried it, but it may work.SHG
*Ed - This is a perennial problem even here with summer-installed woodwork. The owner is nuts - everything installed now will shrink in October-December. I think there are some reasonable ways to filter the air (oversize pleated filters on returns, etc.) but if he's too stubborn to run the A/C I guess all you have is memos, etc. I don't know how you can install knowing what will happen ...Sorry to hear of your predicament.Jeff
*Yes Ed, British in Houston. I just live and work here,...for now. I hate to mention it but clicking on my handle would have lead you to some information about me. Sliante, RJ.
*I worked for some one who also wouldn't allow air conditioning. I rigged it up and ran it anyway. It cost me the job as I was asked to leave.Restricting air conditioning is absurd. Its so unresonable that its ridiculous. If you're faced with providing climate control then the owner should pay. It makes the job unecessarily complicated. Good luck. Regards,Dan-O
*SHG:Good idea and I was thinking about that and recall a company that builds portable type units that seem to go together in a flash. Heck it may work for Ed, and finally the AC can be turned on?I can tell I wouldn't want to go near this job just by the descriptions, unless the guy get's his head outta his butt.zipwall.com
*Better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Though it's usually more fun to curse, if you know what I mean.Ed's building 18,000 square feet. This is no bullshit job, and I'll bet he's going to be well paid for it. If the guy doesn't want his AC jammed with crap before he moves in, and he's paying for the privilege, then he's allowed his pecadillos. It might sound unreasonable here, because it impedes our job, but I can understand why the customer doesn't want to solve one problem by causing another. So the answer is to find a way around the problem, not kick the customer or blow off the job.SHG
*Ed. Might be an idea to build some samples using the wood as it is now, or some you can find that has been stored outside and build some samples. Give the samples to him and ask him to store them in his current house for a week or two. I know people with no ability to work with their hands who have no concept of what I'm talking about when I explain something. One guy in particular is smarter than s**t about what he does (make money) but no clue about anything wood, metal, electrical. At least if you give the guy something he can look at when it's perfect and then he can see it a couple weeks later when it's shrunk and cracked, he will be able to understand why you are going to need some kind of conditioned space to work in, not just think you've got a crew of prima donnas. Joe H
*Thanks SHG, You've hit the nail on the head.It's easy to say hell no, but hard to find work in this arena. When it's done, it will be a one of a kind project that I will be proud to have been a part of. I thought about the "tent" for a cutting area. There is one large room that we might be able to tent off as a cut area. That would still involve turning on the A/C to the rest of the house which I feel is out of the question at this point. Good idea though.I'm all for principle and everything, but you have to give the customer what they want. I won't bale, and I won't build in 80% humidity either. I WILL find an answer to please all parties involved.There is no contract for me. I've been "officially" doing these kind of houses for over 11 years now, and have NEVER signed a contract or been asked to sign one. What the builders situation is, I don't know. But I'll bet it's a lot like mine. Sounds crazy to most people I know, but it works for me. I'm not bound to the job, and the job is not bound to me. We work until it's done and bill by the hour. Done deal at the end of the day or the end of the week or the end of the year or whatever the client wants. I've never missed a day of work.I talked to the Panavision people here in Dallas today (Thanks xJohn) and they put me in touch with a man here who has a 16' trailer with two 10 ton A/C units stapped to it. His wife called back to say he was in California working right now, but will be in touch with me soon.I've also suggested to the builder that we give the A/C contractor the chance to put something together. The homeowner will foot the bill.There is always a path around, over, inbetween or through a situation. You just have to look hard, ask a lot of questions and be open to things you've never heard of before.Sgian,Sorry, I never clicked on your name. Too bad you live in Houston. I spend about three years there one summer. Just kidding. Talk about a rough summer. You get all that wet air from the gulf and none of the ocean breeze. Stand fast......it's gonna be a hot one this year. Good luck and drink lots of water.Joe,That's a good idea, but the homeowner would be too distracted to keep up with the sample I think. He's in Europe with his family right now. Believe it or not, this house is not his main concern at this time.The homeowner bought the house behind the new house for a place his family could stay while in Texas. We remodeled that one too. The teak deck is around the pool at that house. You just don't blow off customers like this. You do everything you can to make them happy, and I am not compromising my principles by doing so. I am not the only sub involved with this project who has obsticles to overcome, but I am the only carpentry sub at this time that has made the grade. I plan on keeping it that way. Business is good.Keep the ideas coming, Lord knows I need all the help I can get.Thanks,Ed.Sorry about all the misspellings, but that's what you get with a 12th grade East Texas education. I really don't have time to look up each and every word I'm not sure of. I hope you get the general idea of what I'm saying although my spelling is hit and miss. It's tough finding a word that will do because you can't spell what's coming out of your mouth. Me spell pretty someday. I would like to thank my 12th grade typing teacher at this time. Thank you, I wish I could remember your name.
*Ed, I like your attitude. I like how you find a solution, without baling. Out-soucing the airconditioning is the only vialble solution at this point. As long as someone else is paying the bill, including your time spent arranging it, then it makes sense to me.Personally, I'd already have walked. I don't like to work for eccentrics. I don't need the aggravation, and I don't like to have to educate people that already know it all.Have fun. blue
*Hey Blue,Thanks for the kind words. Even the boss needs an "attaboy" every once in a while.Ed.
*Well, here's my two cents worth. Take the trim to a building with the atmosphere you're looking for.......aclimate it.....prefinish it...back too. Once sealed and poly sprayed it shouldn't swell so much, take it over to the new house and apply it...touch up when finished. Go back in Dec and fix up the miters with good furniture grade stick putty. Probably work for casing/base.
*Hey Jim,Thanks for the 2 cents.Unfortunatly, the client is less forthcoming with paint colors as he is on woodworking designs. It's a strange job. A job I wouldn't wish on anybody, but I'd like to have two more just like it.Thanks,Ed.
*Ed, A. A. Milne (author of "Whinnie the Pooh", among others) said it best, I think, when he said, "My speller is fine, its just that the letters get jumbled up sometimes"Whenever I remember that quote (after being corrected on my spelling) I imagine Pooh's voice saying it.
*Considering these jobs you've been taking you deserve a bronze star for bravery..........or maybe a purple heart. Actually in the real world once you become known amongst the stars you'll soon be able to write your own ticket. Had a guy fly me to Seattle once just to fix up his deck. Lived in a huge house on Lake Washington for two months. Had my own room with a bearskin rug, met some of the movers and shakers in Seattle etc. etc. There are people in this land who live very high on the hog....very, very, high on the hog. I think I amused them being a woods rat and all.
*Hey Ed,Our flooring contractors won't guarantee a floor unless the AC/Heat has been on for three weeks at 72-75. NC's pretty humid too. Last big house I worked on- 14,000sg' (cost plus, and they knew exactly what they wanted) all the trim was stored in lumber racks in the house. The heat and air guys here will put in temporary air handler units because of the sheetrock dust and saw dust. You can get filters for the floor vents at any big box store.You, obviously, are interested in giving your client the best job that you can, have you considered having him/her read this thread?It's good to see somebody concerned about their work and not just how fast they get the job done and the check cashed.A fellow illusionist, BB
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I've got a house, (18,000 sq. ft.) so I use the word "house" loosly, that we are to start very soon. Looks like we're doing all the interior woodworks less cabinets plus the floors.
I want to acclimate the wood to the house but the homeowner won't let me turn on the A/C. He's using ducts with the interior kind of duct insulation and he's afraid it will build up with saw dust. He has a point. That could be difficult to clean out later unless you folks know some tricks.
My question is: Do I have any options here? Or am I just screwed?
We're in Dallas where it's starting to climb into the upper 90's with the humidity ranging in the 30% range I would guess.
Ed.