I want to get a HVLP sprayer. I have looked at the systems with the 3-stage turbine, and have recently noticed the Porter Cable and Devilbiss conversion guns which I could use with my compressor for a fraction of the cost.
Any experience or advice? It is obviously attractive to spend $100+ on a conversion gun vs $500+ on a system, but is it as good?
I am mostly interested in spraying latex paint. I want that smooth, unbrushed look like you find in furniture stores. My first project is to spray a houseful of MDF trim. Anyway, that’s an idea of my desired application.
Thanks, Brian
Replies
cant comment on the systems you are talking about
my son bought a Sears HVLP sprayer conversion to use with standard compressors.
The coverage was small and he really had to spend a lot of time fine tuning and adjusting. However , he was using it to spay auto paint on small parts in a restoration.
SO I borrowed it and tried it to shoot some waterborne clear trim, switched back to my airless
However I too am interested in a system exactlly like you are saying fro the exact reason
dont do enough to justify$1200 turbine and no body around here rents them anymore becasue they get trashed
maybe you should ask this queston in knots forum. those guys do furniture and finish, maybe they can recomend something
Edited 1/11/2005 12:44 pm ET by Isamemon
I have an HVLP conversion gun from Wagner. Mine has a separate pressure pot for the paint, with both air and paint hoses going to the gun.
Yes, it will shoot latex paint, but only if it's been thinned. You should not expect to spray any "one coat" latex without some sort of thinner (water, Floetrol, alcohol).
It took a bit of learning, but it does a fairly nice job. I suppose that if I used it often enough, I could get good enough to get that perfect look you mention.
The quality of the finish will depend on the relationship between the viscosity of the finish, the flow rate of the finish through the gun, and the flow rate of air through the gun. Changin any of these three will affect the other two, and will affect the finish.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I have a LVLP conversion gun thats able to run off a 4 gal 1 1/2HP compressor its a accuspray. I love it. http://www.compliantspraysystems.com they are the best dealer I know that sells accuspray conversion and turbine.
However also check out http://www.homesteadfinishing.com That is Jeff Jewitts site He also sells accuspray turbines and conversion guns as well and other brands of both conversion and turbine driven units. Jeff is a well known refinisher/restoer and author and a very nice guy who is free with his knowledge. Check out both sites both have lots of info.
There was also a thread over in Knots a few weeks ago about building your own turbine, if you have more time than money and are into tinkerin'.
HVLP means high volumn, low pressure. With a conversion gun, you can step the pressure down, but you can only get so muych volumn out of that little hose.
That means you will be working slow so the compressor can keep up. Fine for occasional small jobs but try working it all day, and you will be wanting the turbine unit.
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I beg to differ.
With a 5 hp compressor driving the air, a gun like the Accuspray 19c, outfitted with a 2.5g pressure pot, can put a lot of paint through the tip.
My friend Jack bought one through Jeff Jewett at Homestead Finishing, and used it to paint all the running trim and doors in a couple three bedroom condos. Jack lent it to a friend, who clearcoated all the trim, bar, new tables and chairs, in a bar-and-grill remodel.
That first job it was used on, was done with a heavy body Sherwin Williams ProClassic acrylic semigloss waterborne enamel, thinned 10 percent with water.
Piff, I suspect you haven't had the pleasure of using a high quality conversion gun yet. A good conversion gun hooked to an adequately sized compressor will put out material in a 10" swath faster than you'd care to move your arm for very long ....and will do that at the intended 6 or 8 psi. Way faster than any turbine unit I've ever used. Mind you I said a good conversion gun. IMO and experience, the Accuspray conversion guns are top-notch and this is definitely the way to go for all day spraying in the shop........if you have the compressor to support it. Be prepared to spend $350 or so on the gun. Couple to a pressure pot and you're ready for some high production runs. This gun is highly and easily adjustable and the results can't be beat.I find a turbine unit is still handy and necessary cause it transports so easily, even though the material output is less than a good conversion system. I like mine for that reason. Output is quite adequate for the type of work I find myself doing in residences. Turbines wear out faster than good air compressors, too. They definitely have a life expectancy. This is what first prompted us to get a conversion gun. Couldn't afford to keep replacing turbines. Went thru one about every two years or sooner when that was the only HVLP equipment in the shop. This would mean that the average DIYer or occasional user could probably expect to get twenty years + from it though. Getting the hang of using a turbine supplied gun is tougher than using a good conversion gun, too. Takes some understanding of the involved principles ......and lots of experience doesn't hurt a thing. Edit: Well, I'd say it's easier to get the hang of a conversion gun.....but then I had some turbine experience before I ever picked one up. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/11/2005 10:24 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
OK, I admit I have not used one guys, but lets talk apples to apples. He is speaking of a $100 unit - not a "good" conversion gun at say $400 plus a pressure pot, plus a "Good" compressor with a large tank. Doing a lot of painting thru an under hundred dollar unit, with your typical jobsite $300 compressor will over work the compressor and the operator.Personally, for large areas, I would rather have the airless. For cabinets and trim, I have the turbine, but I haven't even used it for threee years now that I have a good painting crew to turn to.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are correct, sir. My mistake.Went in my eyes at one point and obviously didn't stick in my noggin.Thumbs down on $100 conversion gun, it is.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I talked Jack into the Accuspray 19c gun and pressure pot because of the need to finish furniture projects and the kind of high end built in stuff I like to do. Its first use, though, was on the whole-complex apartment job, doing trim and doors.
I will admit that for doing regular production work on house interiors (the trim and doors part), that a nice airless like the Titan 440i is the painter's choice.
But we did just fine with the 19c (over $750 with the pot, whip, and tools). A friend lets us borrow his little-used 5hp compressor with its big tank.
The HVLP, for us, is more forgiving than an airless, and readily coats complex surfaces. Less overspray, too.
yea piffin,
i use the accuspray 19c versaex system. 4 gal 1 1/2 hp emglo, compressor will run all the time but you wont have to wait for it to catch up. It takes a 30PSI from the compressor and you can adj it down at the gun (it has a valve system installed on the handle) to adj the atomaztion. When I spray the enduro w/b finish with i use 1 coat of sanding sealer and 2 top coats. I sand after the sanding seal of course and after the build coat. the finish comes out so nice i dont have to rub it out.
I havent sprayed latex with it but my friend Larry Norton uses his (he has a turbine driven accuspray) for painting his cuontry furniture and it comes out beautiful.
but i think with a turbine you do have to thin out the heavier material like w/b poly or latex, with the conversion gun though i havent sprayed latex i havent had to thin the w/b poly. ILO of latex i use a w/b poly that is tinted along with undercoat that is tinted as well. So far it has come out pretty good.
You can get the poly tinted to just about any color plus it comes in a wide variety of colors already. Im going to be building my son a entertainment unit for his room and i considering spraying it a cranberry color, Im also going to be spraying the vaniety in my bath olive green. Both with w/b poly. In the case of the vaniety Im going to add a catalizer which will make it more resistant to moisture.
It is a bit more pricey than paint about 35 bucks a gallon and 29 bucks for a 1/2 qt of catalizer (one T spoon per large cup) but I like the way it turns out.
Brian,
I Have two turbines ( a fuji 3 stage and a greyco that has stand and 2.5gal p. pot., I never use the p. pot ) and also a greyco airless and two titan lvhp ( conventional ) automotive type guns. I love all the units i have but they each have a time and place where they shine.
90% of the time i use the airless, It puts paint on with no fuss and there are a myrid of tips to choose from depending on what you are trying to do. the airless is great for walls, trim, exteriors etc. almost any large surface with not too many details in it.
the hvlp rigs are great for painting precise areas and you need to do almost no masking for the cone is very concentrated, you can controll the ammount of paint from a pinpoint on up, even with the hevy duty trubines i have latex still needs to be thinned considerably to acheave a truely smooth finish... it is very slow but does a good job. I would hate to do a whole house full of trim with it, the airless dose a better job. the kind of trim the hvlp is good for is stuff that is highly detailed ( scrolled, dental, egg and dart ) where you need to lay paint into little areas.. the airless would just miss those places. Just rember that hvlp is only so-so for latex, oil is better and laquor is probably best. also the furnature that you see in the stores that is painted is not done in latex or oil, it is more likely a cat laquer, which you can get from a full service pait store or failing that an automotive paint supplier.
the air brush and automotive guns are for my hobby stuff and really i cant think of a reason you would want to use them in construction ( except maybe furnature ).
hope that helps
james
So, if a guy was looking to mainly shoot MDF trim, doors, and furniture with paint... looking for that glassy surface absent of brushmarks, drips, etc., what kind of gun should he be looking for? Airless, HVLP, HVLP conversion?? I have a pretty good, but smaller (4HP) compressor, for whatever that's worth.
Thanks, Brian
Sounds like we're doing a better job of confusing you than helping you decide. LOLYour choice will be largely dependant upon just what scope of materials and projects you intend to shoot and the size of your wallet. If your looking for an "affordable" easiy to store and and to transport solution, I guess I'd lean toward a good 4-stage HVLP turbine and gun. A 4-stage puts out approx. 8 psi. A 3-stage, approx. 6 psi. Sometimes you don't need the greater pressure and flow and sometimes you do. Depends upon the material in question and it's recommended spraying viscosity. The air flow is adjustable on these turbine outfits and so you can readily reduce the flow of an 8 psi if you don't need it for the material you're using on any given project..or if that greater air flow is a detriment. Using the least amount of air pressure and flow needed to properly atomize the material is what HVLP is all about. Less drift and better tranference of that material to the surface. That better tranference puts money back in your pocket compared to conventional high pressure air systems and helps to pay for the unit over time. The higher the cost of the materials, the faster the payback.And HVLP is better able to place material on inside corners and offers greater control on highly detailed pieces than the other equipment. From your description of the intended projects, I'd say either the turbine outfit or the conversion gun if you don't mind humping that compressor along and supplying it with it's greater electrical needs.Do not make the mistake of latching onto a cheapo system or gun here. For instance, Campbell Hausfield for one..... sells some HVLP equipment that is frankly a waste of money. I'm currently using a 3-stage unit now sold by Wagner for most jobsite work. It even shoots latex just fine when thinned to proper viscosity (within that recommended by the paint company). And that unit supplies me with plenty of paint out the gun head. A 4-stage would allow me to shoot these latex materials with a tad less thinning, but that's no big deal one way or the other on the projects I use it for.I haven't used a LVLP unit yet. Would like to try it sometime though. I'd say you might want to talk to Jeff JeWitt over at Homestead Finishing, as previously recommended, because he'll have the skinny on the latest equipment out there. Just tell him your what you intend to do and the size of your wallet and he'll recommend something based on that.Also........http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00051.asphttp://www.spraytechsys.com/literature/wag_lit/wag_pdf/HVLP_training.pdfhttp://www.ganet.org/dnr/p2ad/pblcations/paintbas.htmlhttp://www.furniturefinishwizard.com/viscosityandwetmils.htmhttp://www.compliantspraysystems.com Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/13/2005 11:06 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Brian
If a guy was not trying to just get by and it funds permit he woud get both...
airless to spray the mdf trim and doors...
hvlp to spray the furnatrue finish ( with anything but latex, ron mentioned cat poly.... sounds nice).
If money was available and if this hvlp rig was to be a regular at jobs i woud go trubine ( 4 stage as mentioned earlier )
If i had to get just one...... that would be tough.......... I guess it would depend on which job would be done more often and which one would yeald the highest $'s quicker so i could buy the other.
sure you could do it all with a trubine hvlp but why woudl you want to waste all that time... someone mentioned material savings but labor losses for doning large stuff with it will eat up that savings, would you paint a house with a hvlp??? no you would go airless
soooooooooooo
hope that is clear as mud
james
"I have a pretty good, but smaller (4HP) compressor, for whatever that's worth."Most likely that is NOT A 4 HP compressor.Look at the motor nameplate and see what it says.Anyway, what you need to do is to look at the CFM requirements of the gun and what your compressor can supply.
I've never bought a turbine system b/c I opted instead for a couple of conversions. Love them. They do suck some air, but that I had, in spades. One is a little touchup gun, and you can shoot face frames next to a wall with a 2" strip of masking, thats about the extent of overspray to worry about. The bigger one I use on everything else. I'm sure there's a good argument somewhere for a turbine, but the conversion accomplishes the same thing. And I havent read an argument here that I buy yet.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Check out Apollo guns & turbines....
No one has mentioned that turbines put out warm, dry air....compressors put out cold, wet air (unless you have expensive driers & warmers....); guess which one makes for a better paint film...
That said, for spraying a house full of MDF trim I'd be inclined to go with a paint pump....prep & attention to thining & conditioners in the paint should get you a quality result...
Go to http://www.homesteadfinishing.com and check out the Asturo line of conversion guns.
I've had a 9010 SP with a 2qt remote and a 1 qt cup for about 2 years, and it sprays everything.
I spray Sherwin-Williams ProClassic Acrylic thinned 10-20% and the results are exellent. I use the 1 qt for WB and nitro lacquer.
This set-up ran about $500, and it will run on virtually any compressor.
Talk to Jeff Jewitt at Homstead. Their product support is great.
hey brian; havent read all the post's here but i'm going to throw my 2¢ in. i've been spraying for around 6 years, not that long but i jumped in with both feet and here what i learned. conversion guns and turbines are good to have both if you do alot of painting. but conversion guns do a more efficient= better job the amount of holes that are in the tip of the gun which is where the air comes out which disperse's the medium/paint. the middle of tip is where the paint comes out around the perimeter of the tip is the air more wholes around the perimeter=better( i think it called atomization). turbines good in a pinch and in colder weather becuse of control of paint and the heat generated by the turbine. thin your paint by seconds there are viscosity cups called either ford or zahn cups important to inexperianced . there are pro's who do it by eye or with a pencil or stirrer. thinner for paints are penetrol for oil's ,floetrol for latex there are other's i like these. with the oil i also use mineral spirits these mix well and cause the paint to dry quicker also the paint tip changes w/ oil smaller tip, larger with latex.also can use naptha and a host of other thing's ending in zene. but hese cause a change in the paint and have a tendecy to cause the paint to separate when it lye's unused and it a P.I.T.A. to mix again.
i started with an apollo turbine and was a learning curve but wasnt to steep.bought it at a woodworking show. for 900.00 and has aplace in the finish room for it like i said when it get's cold , i got the bleeder gun w/it which means the air always runs through the portals and paint kicks in when you press the trigger. the conversion gun is silent until trigger is depressed. and.... the bleeder takes longer to clean than the conversion gun. which is a very important step my first conversion hvlp i bought the orange box made by husky 80.00 broke my cherry on that and bought a devilbiss the diffrence is between night and day. but the husky was good to experiment with . like i said i'm a neophyte with spraying in some ways but it bumped up the finished product remarkably. there are things called flash coats, and the .....ABSOLUTE BEST ADVICE HERE IS HOMESTEAD FINISHING.COM... thats not a yell just very emphatic. there like here are some very generous folk and is a nice community. there his books finishing by taunton (jeff jewitt author)
spray finishing by charron (taunton) go figure!! i'm real glad i jumped into this phase of the construction(sraying) it a very interesting ,and the results are worth it's weight..
also more important than anything and this common sense but feel compelled to share it ... and real good resperatoe i use 3m products w/ charcoal filters and an exhaust fan with a simple filter so the overspray get's filtered before it gets pushed out i hope there's two cents you can extract here , and my apologies if there's any redundancy........ GO JETS bear .
"expectations are premeditated resentments"
Edited 1/15/2005 8:48 am ET by the bear
Years before the internet Jeff used to be on the Compuserve forums. Then several internet woodworking forums before he got his web site going.Always very, bery helpful.
There is a new type of gun called RP this is a modified HVLP. I believe Eastwood company in Pa carries them I have the Devilbiss Plus. With any type of new spray gun you should use a large hose and matched large couplings with them. You will also have to have a compressor with the appropriate cfm rating.
Brian, first check with the cfm output of the compressors and the output of the gun. Three stage turbines produce a huge volume of air that the compressors probably will not be able to match. Spraying thick latex/acrylic paints is not the easiest of thing to spray as you will have to thin them down quite a bit and apply multiple coats. I have found that the waterbourne paint spray out a little better and have a more appealing look.