Moved in this month to a rental house in Mission Viejo CA. We’ve been using the shower in the hall bath, because the flow in the master bath was low and we couldn’t figure out how to adjust the temperature (response time from changing the position of the handle was too long to get any useful feedback). The landlady obligingly sent out a handyman, and now the flow is adequate.
So, I’ve taken two shower in this nice, tiled shower. The first time, there was a fair amount of water on the floor, but I figured at least some of that was because I opened the door to get a washcloth. But, given the damaged baseboard I had noticed on move-in, in the hallway behind the plumbed wall of the shower (they said it was “old” damage and not to worry about it), I was suspicious. So, the second shower I put the bath mat right up next to the shower and kept the door tightly closed the whole time.
Sure enough, there’s a semicircular wet spot centered at the edge of the mat, and about 2″ above it, about level with the floor of the shower, there’s water weeping out of the curb through a hole in the grout. 🙁
The carpeting in the hall against the damaged baseboard is discolored, but I don’t remember whether or not it was discolored when we moved in (they had just cleaned the carpets), and it’s not grossly wet to the touch, but I couldn’t say for sure that it’s not a little bit damp.
Short of tearing the whole thing out, is there any way for my landlady to find the source of the leak? I think this place is built on a slab.
And do I have to stop using that shower? It’s actually much nicer than the tub shower in the other bathroom, now that the flow situation is fixed.
I’d like to be able to blame the handyman, but the baseboard bespeaks a much older problem…
Rebeccah
Edited 4/5/2008 12:42 am by Rebeccah
Replies
My first guess is the shower pan it self is leaking, if that is the case it needs to be rebuilt or replaced with a fiberglass or acrylic one.
Wallyo
I also think it looks like a leaking shower pan, not an easy fix, but a necessary one.
Hello?
Is this thing on?
That's what I was afraid of. And the damaged baseboard isn't behind the plumbing after all, but behind the wall next to the shower, where there's the water on the floor, and maybe behind the curb.Sigh.Thanks,Rebeccah
Look's to me like the shower door track at the bottom. The tile lip prevents the water from draining back into the shower. There should be weep holes in the track but there isn't anyplace for the water to go. It collects and drains down the front. You could caulk the daylights out of that area but it will result in a pond behind the track. The water needs a way to get back into the shower. A shower curtain, kept inside the step up area would be an easy fix.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I looked very carefully, and if you look at the second attached photo, you can see that the water is weeping out through a hole in the grout, not down from the door track. The tile and grout above the hole were dry.Rebeccah
Edited 4/5/2008 11:45 am by Rebeccah
Seems odd that a shower pan would be leaking at that height. Is there enough water build up in the shower? You would need water up to your ankles which means the drain isn't keeping up. The door track is probably set in caulking. The water can find it's way through grout lines and work it's way out. It's not necessarily directly over the leak. You could hang a plastic sheet up for a shower curtain. This will tell you if it's the lipped area or the pan. It's best to check the simple things first.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The floor of the shower is about 2" higher than the floor of the bathroom. The weep hole is right about at the height of the shower floor.But you have a point about water leaking from top of the curb into the curb. I'll see if I can rig up a curtain of some kind.Rebeccah
Edited 4/5/2008 12:14 pm by Rebeccah
Look at the track on the INSIDE where it meets the tile.I have seen that area caulked. It is suppose to be open for any water to come back into the shower. When I removed the caulk in that area water just kept comes out of that area.If that is what is going on in your case then the water could end up soaking down throug the threadhold and out the tile joint(s)..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My thought too, Bill. For some reason, people want to run caulk all the way around the shower door enclosure on BOTH sides (inside and out). I've argued for years that the inside shouldn't be caulked so that water can freely run back into the pan and down the drain. I've won about half of those arguments. - lol
Another possibility is the arrangement and fit of the doors. They need to be adjusted so the gap is as small as possible and I like to close them so the inside door is farthest from the shower head. This seems to reduce the amount of water that can somehow splash out onto the bathroom floor.
Rebeccah, your picture shows a raised lip behind the shower door track. The shower door track is lower than this lip, or raised portion of the tile. This is an incorrect way of installing that type of door track. Water will be trapped between the door and the lip, just like a trough. Where is that water going to go and how does it get there? The second picture shows where it goes, out that grout joint. The next question is how did it find it's way there. Every grout joint and corner is suspect along that stepped down area. The bottom door tracks are not supposed to be fastened with screws. They lay in a bed of caulking to prevent water from getting under the track. The ends are held in place by the wall tracks, they fit together. If there are any screws in the bottom track , that would be a perfect place for the water to get in behind the tile. The problem is the door and the lip. If the door was mounted properly on the higher lip, I don't think you would have a problem. With that lip and the door a step down, there will always be a problem. They only solution is to keep the water from getting into that trough area, or let it out. The tile in the shower floor would have to be removed to know what type of pan is underneath. Typically, pans leak in corners and around the drain. There are exceptions, when walls have missing grout or poor installation practices and materials are used. A visual inspection of grout, caulk and corners should tell you something. It's not like you can take out a tile or two. Tiles are going to get broken. You or the owner may not find a match. Fixing the job properly, if the problem is the pan, could require tearing out the entire shower area. This may show worse conditions under the tile. A major job compared to hanging a shower curtain. This is what I think I see from two pictures. It's not easy to diagnose a problem over the internet without being there. I look for the most obvious indicators and that lip makes me zero in on that situation. There could be other issues but that installation raises first concerns.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I have to go out, but I just took another quick look.The track is NOT inset, and it is NOT screwed on. However, there *is* a bead of clear silicone caulk that I didn't see before on the inside.I can see grout in different areas of the shower with different colors, as though in the areas where you stand (and the top of the curb) the sealant has broken down.I'll look again in more detail and post more pictures later.Thanks.Rebeccah
I'm the guy who suggested using silicone on the top and inside as a temporary fix, and I just wanted to be clear that that is a very stopgap kind of measure. You obviously need to let the landlord know and save your excellent photos.
I saw that one questionable grout line, and it could be the entry for the water. That said, if the pan itself is the problem (as some suggested), when the substrate starts to go, the mildew will creep out from behind grout, so the dark grout might not be the cause, but rather an effect of water damage.
You can try to diagnose the problem by sequentially addressing the potential problems from the top down, and watching that weep hole. Pull that caulk on the inside of the track, (as was mentioned), try sealing the grout on the top and inside of the curb (not the weep hole), and work your way down.
The leak was dramatic enough that you should be able to tell if you've made it better, but there could be multiple issues here, so cya with documentation and photos of your informing the owner, i guess.
k
ps- where in oak is your sale? my m.i.l lives by the lake and we've been vaguely watching listings around there. if your sale falls through, who knows?...
Thanks.I did a little more looking. There's another weep hole in the grout on the outside of the curb, but right near the top, just below the flat tiles along the top surface of the curb. That strongly suggests that at least part of the problem is the pooling water on the top of the curb. However, I also notice adhesion failure of the grout on the inside of the shower where the curb meets the plumbing wall, and a bit higher up, there's grout failure in a couple of places in the plumbing wall itself.My next step (besides notifying the landlady) is, today I got a roll of 3M plastic with masking tape pre-applied to one edge, and made myself a little skirt for the shower door, covering the curb. We'll see if that makes my wet spot disappear.
Damaged baseboard and stained carpet, second weep hole near top of curb, failed grout inside shower. Oh, and by the way, the adhesion of the door track to the top of the curb has failed, too. The silicone caulk isn't doing much of anything.
Edited 4/7/2008 1:46 am by Rebeccah
Success!The plastic skirt did the trick. The outside of the curb is dry.Whatever the state of the pan and any other leaks that may be present, the root cause of this one in my opinion is that the top of the curb is not sloped back into the shower, allowing water to pool on top.Now at least I have a work-around for the problem while the landlady decides whether or not (i.e., when) to deal with the larger problem.Thanks, All.Rebeccah
"ps- where in oak is your sale? my m.i.l lives by the lake and we've been vaguely watching listings around there. if your sale falls through, who knows?..."6007 San Pablo Ave.I lived in an apartment on Mandana before I bought the house. What side of the lake does your MIL live on?Rebeccah
Mom in law lives on wesley, i guess that's the south east side? Around the bend from lakeshore a 1/2 mi. or so. Not as close to everything as mandana, but she loves it.
glad the skirt is working for now. I don't know if you caught the "dear landlord" thread a few days ago, but it was a pretty funny back and forth about owners' upkeep strategies on rentals. I'd say save your photos and docs, but don't hold your breath for a rapid response, i guess...
k
Yeah, I caught the "Dear Landlord" thread. I totally understand their point of view. Since I have found a work-around, and especially since there was pre-existing damage that they already knew about, I don't expect an expensive repair to be done any time soon. But now it's documented, and I can use the shower without feeling guilty about aggravating a known problem.When I was a kid, I remember when our shower had to be completely rebuilt and retiled. My mom had leaned against the wall of the shower, and it caved in. We redid the tile in the whole bathroom while we were at it. Went from pale pink to cobalt blue. I loved the new color.Rebeccah
Did you get a decent price for your place in Oakland?
It's in contract now, for roughly the asking price, net - it's a Section 8 renter who's got a multitude of assistance programs including a 4% fixed rate 30-year mortgage, two down payment assistance programs, and an Oakland Housing Authority mortgage assistance program that will pay a good chunk of her monthly mortgage payment for her.So, the offered price is actually some $20,000 above asking, but includes a 3% credit for closing costs and me paying both halves of the transfer tax, which is apparently ordinarily split between buyer and seller around here. It's in the middle of inspections, minor repairs, and reinspections now, and the inspection contingency should be removed I think some time next week.The big question is whether the appraisal will come in high enough. My realtor says the appraisor would have let him know if he thought there was a problem, but apparently it's not anything like a slam-dunk, especially because a nearby comparable house went into contract right before mine went on the market, for substantially less. It was dumped by the bank after being overpriced on the market for over a year. However, after it went into contract, inspection revealed it needed some $65,000 in structural pest repairs, so that provides some good evidence that my house is actually worth more. Meanwhile, my realtor is still showing the house, in case this falls through. I don't think we've gotten any backup offers yet, though.Rebeccah
Sounds like you are going to make out OK. Your buyer is getting an impressive amount of help!
Yes, she is! I sure wouldn't have minded that loan interest rate or the mortgage assistance, when I was a first-time buyer 4 years ago. But in that seller's market, I wouldn't have been able to find a house where the seller was willing to deal with the multiple inspections, pickiness, contractual addenda, extra time 'til closing, and overall headache since there were other buyers lined up without all of that overhead.Rebeccah
Document the leak and damage with photographs and date you first noticed this. Mention it to the landlord and keep a record of that too. You should not be forfeiting all, or a portion, of your deposit to fix this exiting damage when you finally do decide to leave.
Documenting this now will save the hassle later. Now as to fix: As prior posts have pointed out, the shower pan is in bad shape and in need of repair or rather replacement. That means complete tile removal and repair of damaged wood framing around the shower, new pan and a re- tiling of the effected area. Not cheap and will likely eat up a good portion of $1500, maybe more. Again, document it now so you won't be dinged for it later.
Every week day and for a little while longer on Sunday afternoons too, there's a free lawyer talk show on the local radio station here that covers everything legal. He's a lawyer with a practice in northern California and lots of people have called in with questions regarding rental law in the state. He's very helpful and it would be worth your while to listen. Go to the web site at: http://www.kgoam810.com/
click on the "listen live" button sunday afternoon or weekdays between noon and 12:45 PM
Thank you, that's good advice.Rebeccah
I can't really see, but it looks like the grout line on the top of the curb (1/2 a tile to the right of the exit hole) is in poor condition? Is it possible that's where the water's getting in?
k
(edited addition: Hammer mentioned a lip- i'm not sure i see it?)
also- Mike Maines made a good point about the curb maybe not being well waterproofed-if you re-grout or silicon that failing gap on top, it would be only a temporary fix if that's the case, but it might help.)
Edited 4/5/2008 11:57 pm ET by KFC
Edited 4/6/2008 12:05 am ET by KFC
Maybe I'm seeing things but it sure looks like there is a curb that is even with the top of the bottom door track, just behind it. I think I see... the door track, then behind it, an elevation about 1 1/2" in and 1 1/2" up. As though the track sits down on a ledge.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I think that's just the inside of the track, but i can kinda see what you're saying. if you're right about a step up, that would be um, less than ideal.
I'm still looking at that grout line on the top, though. I bet there was no flashing up the curb, like Mike Maines was saying. The sealed grout and tile was waterproof enough to work for a while, but opened up a bit over time, and once a little water got into that joint it started working on the substrate (plywood?). And now it's getting bad in a hurry. I'd probably run some silicone over every grout line on the top and inside of that curb as a temporary thing to keep the disaster frozen until the owner wants to rebuild the curb.
k
Edited 4/6/2008 12:47 am ET by KFC
Edited 4/6/2008 1:11 am ET by KFC
I recently had to repair a similar problem, except the homeowners let it go for six years before deciding to do anything about it. Guess they thought it would stop leaking on its own. And theirs was a second floor bath, so it caused damage on the first floor as well.
The main problem was that the pvc shower pan didn't run up over the curb and back down the other side. It only ran to the center of the curb, and was nailed there. Tile and grout are not waterproof, so eventually the tiny bit of water that leaked through got into the framing and caused all kinds of fun stuff.
I bet you have a similar problem with an improperly waterproofed curb. Our fix cost $3000, split between the HO's and my boss (still warranteeing work after six years, he's a good guy!), yours would be less because no damage to lower floors.
My first shot would be to remove the door track and reset it. We do it on just about every leaking shower we fix and it works about 75% of the time.
I'm with Hammer on this one..............
[email protected]
my brother may have a house for sale soon in Mission Viejo ...
problem solved!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa