…And he had it coming. some people you just cant motivate. I tried everything, could not get more than 3 days a week out of him. I’ve got plenty of backlog and I’m turning away calls every day. I need a guy who’s gonna show up and give me 40
So I was thinking, maybe the next guy will get a sliding pay scale. show up 3 days in any given week and earn 60 percent of your hourly rate. show up 4 days and earn 80 percent. all 5 days will get you your full rate, happily.
Hypothetically, if I’m giving a guy 20 bucks an hour he needs to be there all 5 days to get that. miss a day and he’s only working for 16 dollars an hour. miss 2 days and he dropped his rate to 60 percent or 12 dollars an hour. then we’ll start all over fresh on monday
the reasoning being I need a full week out of an employee to keep my business profitable enough to pay the larger salary.
If anyone has a better Idea I’m listening
Replies
I can understand your frustration and the need to keep guys working full time.
Personally I'd tell you to pound sand with that sort of policy though, what if I'm a sick a day? that makes me 20% less valuable the rest of the time?
If it's a chronic problem the guy just needs to be canned, and you'll have to hire and fire until you find a good reliable employee.
If you have an employee is who is constantly missing work that's a fundamental problem which a sliding pay scale will not correct. You shouldn't have to come up with incentives for someone to do the bare minimum 40 hours a week.
Thats an interesting response. Are you a worker bee or an employer? I ran that by 2 other employers and they loved it.
I guess you have to sell it as though their pay would be the lower amount but a higher rate could be attainable
a sick day actually does make you less valuable but I'm not heartless. people need feed their familys. what I've been getting lately is just plain BS for excuses
I'm an employee but not exactly a worker bee... I run the day-day for the remodeling company I work for.
I have had a few guys that were/are a little liberal with short days and missing a day here and there, and I'm fully aware of the drop in productivity that results from it.
But my problems are not severe enough to be a real bother.
My policy is probably a little to lax, but I try to understand that life happens and the job is not always going to be able to come first, as long as I have enough notice I don't sweat a guy taking time off for personal business every now and then, and in turn most of my guy's don't sweat it if I ask them to work weekends or longer hours on rare occasions if something critical needs to happen.
I don't buy it that being sick makes someone a less valuable employee, people aren't robots and they will miss work that's a fact of life nobody's going to change, I agree it hurts productivity and in turn profit, but it does not make that person less of a value, it just needs to be factored in with all the rest of things that can go wrong on a job.
Did you tell these two employees their wage would go up if you instituted this policy or does the policy apply to their current wage?
I'm not trying to be an #### here, but if you came to me and told me from now on my wage would be cut for the rest of the week if I missed one day or two days I'd probably quit on the spot.
And I still feel that expecting someone to be at work 40 hours a week isn't asking anything out of the ordinary therefore there should not need to be a sliding scale or any other incentive/punishment system.
It's a simple matter of trust and dependability, if the employees you have are neither they need to be fired. You obviously understand that since you fired your brother, which probably wasn't the easiest decision you've had to make.
So I'd try to find and retain reasonable, honest, and reliable people, loose the ones that do not fit into that category. No policy needed other then that IMO.
I'm really surprised how many people are behind this idea. It tells me you guys either are willing to, or have to, settle for a bunch of asholes for employees.
We've had quite a bit of turnover in the last year where I work, One of our leads quit to go out on his own, one moved to a different state, two had non-work related injuries putting guys out for a month or so, a few others have left for various other reasons, Most of these guys that left were good employees, others I was glad to see go.
But we've been able to find good quality people to replace all of them, sure it took a little time and interviewing a lot of people, but, in the end we ended up with a relatively solid team as of now. We need to improve in a few areas but overall I'm happy.
Maybe we've just been lucky, but I think a few of the things that allow us to hire good help and not hiring until we feel we've interviewed enough people and found the right one, so not hiring out of desperation, and two, we pay fairly well and have a better benefit package then any other remodeling company our size.
Actually it was one of my employees that phoned me about this thread and how it would be a good idea to use with the jackazz that was with us about six months ago.
Good employees show up everyday all week and work hard. None of them mind to weed out the losers.
Problem is you'd have to make it a company policy for everyone, so if one of your "good" employees get's sick or has to take a day off to take the kid somewhere, or has divorce court, or must stay home to take care of a sick kid, or their truck crapped out...
Would you think it fair to dock them a percentage of their wages for the rest of the week.
Those are all reasons I've heard in the last few months for an absence or being late, I believe everyone to be legit and could not in good conscience lesson their wages because life happens.
So weeding out the losers is easy, Fire them, no need to punish the good for the mistakes of the bad.
And Jim's correct, Money doesn't motivate people very well, I'm not saying it doesn't help every now and then and it may certainly be a short term incentive, but it doesn't last.
No i would only use it on new hires as a means to prove themselves over the first couple months. After that i wouldn't worry about them. 99% of the problem workers have substance abuse issues.
If you just go ahead and fire them you could be in labour relations nightmare like my neighbor with the sporting goods store. He ended up paying $2500 because of not enough of a reason to fire someone who misses work! His employee had missed eight days over the first two months!
A friend of mine who is a painting contractor said its a great Idea fo one of his guys and he's going to give it a try. the rest of his guys show up regularly and there's no need for it
I see no harm singling out the one guy who cant get his azz out of bed in the morning or even call in his lame excuse. that guy is going to get canned any way if he doesnt shape up
in the case of my brother, he did good good work and the customers liked him, when he showed up
I'm with CAGIV in thinking this is a really bad idea. I suspect it's also illegal, but don't really know.
I am a great believer in luck, the harder I work, the luckier I get.
no, not illegal in any sense. its just a verbal employment contract. if the offending party doesnt like it he can move on
here in Ct an employer can fire a guy with no reason given or no notice at all. we're the right to work state. I wonder how that is related to our highest income per capita in the US
"no, not illegal in any sense. its just a verbal employment contract. if the offending party doesnt like it he can move on"Maybe illegal. Specially if the end results is less than minimum wage."here in Ct an employer can fire a guy with no reason given or no notice at all. we're the right to work state. I wonder how that is related to our highest income per capita in the US"Just because you can fire w/o cause does not mean that what you want to do is legal.In many states you can't "fine" the employee for losses from damages that they do ro losses in the cash register. But you can fire them.But I agree with many of the others. Look for a bonus instead.When some one has lost the first day they have not only lost that pay, but also the lower of the pay for the remainder of the week. so even less reason to come in.
mav....i've been an employer since '75
lot's of guys and gals have come & gone..
i'm a better boss than i was in '75.... and i'd make a good employee
but i bet you'd have a hard time getting me for 40.. too many other things in life get in the way
your proposed hypothetical policy would see me working by myself within a week
most of the time i don't even fire anyone anymore.. not unless it comes to a confrontration or dishonesty ..
instead, i try to analyze what the employee brings to the job that adds value to the job... IE: trying to fit square pegs in square holes and round pegs in round holes.. the other way doesn't seem to work very well
in reading your posts , it seems like your brother was a value adding employee..... EXCEPT he couldn't comply with your 40 hour threshold
maybe it's because we're remodelers and we need lot's of different skills .. but mostly we need people who care
don't take this personally but... perhaps you could work on becoming a more effective manager of people ( i know i could too )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
my brother has been with me since March. Ironically last week was the first time he broke 40 hours and thats only because I had a hot job and offered up double time for weekend hours so we would'nt break stride with other projects. then he was MIA on monday, again.
enough is enough.
He's not the first. I've always been a go-getter and I can't understand anyone who is content working paycheck to paycheck. even then they need a "bump" midweek to cover cigarettes or some other habit.
I think trying to motivate people with money is a losing battle. People want to belong. To fit in. To feel valued. To feel like their work (and life) matter.
I'd say the employee who comes to work 3 or 4 days a week on a regular basis isn't getting their needs met. They are working just as much as they HAVE to to get by, but they are white knuckling it. They aren't fulfilled by the work.
I don't think WHAT you do matters much. That employee will never give it their all. And unless a person does that, they will never reach anywhere near their potential. There will always be tension between them and their coworkers and employer.
Let 'em go and keep looking. You may not know where the right employee is right now, but you know your brother isn't the right one. The sooner you let him go, the closer you'll be to finding the right one. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
I think you've touched upon an important point, or at least brought one up in my mind in a round about sort of way.
You mention wanting to belong, which from the managment books I've read is important. What poped into my head reading your post was the necessity to hire people who are passionate about this type of work for what ever reason they may have.
I think some enjoy the technical aspects of the job, carpentry, plumbing, electrical, what ever. Some enjoy bringing all the parts and pieces of a project together, the process itself of construction and seeing the transformation. What ever it is the passion and desire to do the work must be there to get someone's all. Employees who are working simply as means to a pay check will never work out as well because they simply do not have that fire inside driving them.
It tends to be pretty obvious in an interview who wants to come to work and enjoys this type of work and who simply needs any job to bring in some money.
Amen:
The world is a confusing, complicated, and sometimes frustrating place to spend your life!
But one thing that I have found to be true:
If you set your standard low, you will achieve it.
a sliding scale like that implies you're willing to deal with employee who'll not show up a day or more, during the week.
WHY lower your standards? Keep looking for that needle in a haystack person - you know the one: honest, solid work ethic, showers routinely...gots a sense of humor.
They exist- I know they do!
LOL!
good luck to ya.
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Yeah, theres gotta be one in every state
Arkansas has at least 2 then: me, and Mooney...
(there's MORE there - BTers even!)
C'MON now. gotta be more positive than that!DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
I love that idea. Guys who cannot show up regularily usually have other problems, ie alcohol, drugs, depression. This however would be a great motivator, and lets face it, people like this are not the type to tell their employer to pound sand. Likely they will see this as your acceptance of their flakiness and continue to not show up iregularily, hence be less valuable to you and get paid accordingly.
Love that idea! So tired of paying clowns money and then they decide to take a day off the next monday. Always seems to be when the trusses arrive and you really are counting on him to be there too.
It is a real struggle to find good employees.
It is a real struggle to find good employees.
As someone who has been both an employee and an employer (at different times) I always find that statement somewhate funny. Good employees are hard to find in our industry because we do not typically place adequate value upon the ones that we do find. Talanted hardworking people will typically move away from an industry that offers low pay, tough working conditions, and little to no security.
Once we find good employees, how can we hold onto them?
ahhaaha...drama in the family this week lol...
I agree with CAG that this idea would leave me feeling a little cold.
I'm not sure I 100% agree with Jim Blodgett that money will not motivate- but I probably just lack his insight in the manner.
Money can be a very important motivator but I would not use someone's wage as a shackle, I would turn it in to a carrot instead.
Your profitability is hurt because your employees are not interested in the momentum of the job and staying on schedule as much as you are. I would set an employees wage at what ever is fair and then offer some type of performance bonus. Maybe it's paid at the end of the week, maybe it's paid at the end of a job, but you need to find a way to draw a strong correlation between effort invested to benefits reaped.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hi Maverick,
You probably did a disservice to yourself by abandoning objectivity because of familial connections: screening interviews, reference checks, verifying past employment - they're all part of the "due diligence" required to make a good hire; if you throw your principles and responsibilities out of the window because a prospective employee is related to you, you shouldn't be surprised if the results are less than stellar.
I've found that incentives work far better than disincentives. Paying a bonus for a full work week would probably go over better than a penalty, but it wouldn't help you filter out flakey employees.
An effective leader seldom creates untenable conditions for his subordinates to compensate for his own shortcomings.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"An effective leader seldom creates untenable conditions for his subordinates to compensate for his own shortcomings."
ummm...what page of your management textbook did u get that from? lol
i don't agree with anyone here that thinks an employer should give a bonus for working a regular work week..when you get hired, there's an understanding that you will be expected to work x amount of hours, usually the hours are set, excluding of course sickness and other personal problems...
if u want your workers to feel their work is appreciated, then let them know every once and a while...far too many employers don't understand how far a compliment can go...and even better, give them a raise every 6 mos/a year...
"An effective leader seldom creates untenable conditions for his subordinates to compensate for his own shortcomings."
"ummm...what page of your management textbook did u get that from? lol"
Hi Matasky,
No textbook: 30 years of experience as a CFO for multi-national Fortune 500 firms. What part of that statement do you disagree with?
Ineffective leaders do all kinds of sh!t.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"An effective leader seldom creates untenable conditions for his subordinates to compensate for his own shortcomings.""ummm...what page of your management textbook did u get that from? lol"Hi Matasky,No textbook: 30 years of experience as a CFO for multi-national Fortune 500 firms. What part of that statement do you disagree with?Wich firms did/do you work for?
maybe he's just a guy tryin to run a successful business, but since finding good workers is such a struggle, he trying a new approach to deal with the slackers without firing every one of them...
either way, he was just asking what we all thought of the idea...and u basically told him that the real problem is his ability to be a good leader...
i think that's a pretty low blow, and most would agree here..
wouldn't expect any less from someone with your impressive credentials tho..
"i think that's a pretty low blow, and most would agree here"
You're right, of course.
I shouldn't even log on when I'm in a foul mood, much less post a reply. My apologies to all.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
This is just fodder for thought - It may not be applicable to you, but I've got three crews. One likes to start about 8, one 8:30, and the other about 9-9:30. I fought that for a long time, but finally just let it flow. When I quit fighting it, productivity went up as absenteeism went down. If the 9:30 guys had to be there by 8, they'd sometimes just take off the whole day. Instead, now they can get started when they want to and work 'til when they want to. They show up every day.
What ever you do, don't flip the red switch on the dashboard, Gunner.
http://grantlogan.net/
Maverick, another option that you have instead of a sliding scale that would be easier to keep track of would be a "bonus" for working a ll five days. Have their pay at say $18 per hour and if they work all fave days they get a $100 bonus at the end of the week. The company that I work for has been using this practice at a plant in Jaurez for years.
maverick -
I don't think your sliding scale plan will work as you forsee. When I read your post it made me think of a book my wife keeps talking about called Freakonomics, and an example in there of how a daycare center tried to make parents pick up their kids on time by instituting a fine. As soon as the fine policy was estabilished the number of late pickups increased, because it became okay to do so. Parents traded money for convenience.
It is very possible that your policy could do the same thing - eventually you may be left only with employees who want $16/hr and work 4 days a week which is what you are trying to avoid.
You can read an excerpt of the book, with the daycare part here:
http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060731328/Freakonomics/excerpt.aspx
I'd probably also tell you to go pound sand since I show up to work everyday. If I only felt like coming in 3 days a week for less money, I'd sign up though - 3 day a week jobs are not as easy to find.
BTW, do you pay overtime for working on Saturday?
I think there's probably another solution to your problem which may be employee specific. Sorry you had to let your brother go, that must have been real tough on both of you.
Best of luck.
It's very common in manufacturing environments to have weekly AND monthly attendance bonuses.
If the bonus(es) are large enough, it can often get a butt out of bed on a crappy morning.
Seems a lot more simplified than figuring out an hourly rate depending upon time worked.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
You can still end up with bad attitude and showing up on days when you least need him and not showing up when you just gotta have him.
Some states have laws regaarding things like this too. I seem top remember it was in NY that if a guy regularly worked 32 hours, he had to be paid for forty - something about their definition of full time
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The other way of doing the same thing (if you are willing to put up with them at all) is an hourly bonus (eg $5/hr) if they are there 40hrs. Carrots are generally more sucessful than sticks.
Jim
you may be on to something
I think the trades go about hiring backwards.
We seem to hire someone, and stick with them. I'm all for loyalty to employees, but the employees have to earn the loyalty. Just because we decided to hire them, doesn't mean we are stuck with them, for better or worse.
It seems we are always in a hurry to hire someone. We should be constantly looking for good employees. McDonalds is always hiring. You know why? Because there is always a better employee out there, and they don't want to turn them away.
I don't see any reason to put up with unproductive, or bad attitude, employees. Deal with them long enough to find a suitable replacement.
Don't call me daughter.
I've been following this thread with interest. There's been a lot of good observations.
But there's at least one thing that hasn't come up yet: Good God man, he's your brother!
But more seriously, of course you had to do what needed to be done. I'm just sort of curious about any effects it might have had on your relationship. I have 3 brothers. The best brothers that anyone could ask for. I'm sure my relationship with any of them could survive being fired, but I can't imagine any one of them putting me in that position nor would I do it to them.
-Don
Your profile doesn't give your location but I would bet that your state labor relations people would have a problem with your plan - lol.
I read all the posts and i don't think anyone has solved your problem...
you didn't say if it was an older or a younger brother... yes it matters...
younger...
and he's like a kid and you are the parent he's always testing limits and looks like he's won for the most part... chances are if he was working for someone else he'd show up everyday... put him in charge where he has to be there or his crew can't work....
Older...
I'm in this situation my older brother has worked for me ... over 15 years and some before that... I'm not sure how he sees things as far as him work'n for me... and I pretty much fixed it.... by all but give'n him the business and collecting rent on the building... I tried working with him for awhile and we made buckets of money... as i phased myself out of the day to day there was less & less so i assume money doesn't motivate him... the deal is he's my brother and money is only money...he makes/does enough to do what he wants, pays his bills ect... i don't even ask... it's a blood thing... you do what you do
a buddy of mine has a chain of fastfood places he runs into exactly what you have... you show up ontime and in uniform for a week you get $50 added to your paycheck each week... make it a month and you get an extra $100 (thats $300 extra just for doing what you should)
he made it not about money he showed them what they could have (i know he's deal'n with alot of younger people) but he showed them just by show'n up they could have a new car ...ie he had a dealership bring new cars to the meeting that they could buy for $300 a month... the dealership actually sold a few of these kids cars that year...
when i needed to hire people that i had to have faith in them show'n up everyday... i looked hard at and for ex military guys... never had a bad experience...
good luck
p
OK, a little more information about my brother although I dont think it really matters
he's 10 years younger than me and totally irresponsible. I mean he's got a kid he hasnt seen in 6 years or paid any child support. when I hired him he moved his camper into my driveway where he lived until he made enough to rent a place w/his girlfriend.
his last employer was another of my brothers who finally had enough of him and let him go
part of the reason I fired him was for lying to me about where he "needed" to be. he needed to be at work IMO. I kept him going with busy work so I would have help when I really needed it. monday he was MIA again and I wrenched my back moving a heavy object
as someone said here "life happens". sometimes you need to take time off to address certain issues. in his case those issues are partying and riding his wave runner.
I've been reading this website long enough to know there are a lot of clowns in here that are just totally full of themselves and love the chance to jump on me to showcase my shortcomings. he needs work, how 'bout it guys, want his phone number?
I'm of the opinion that almost every family has one of these brothers. You did yourself and him no favor by doing him a favor, but you know that and you've done the right thing. He is a classic taker, and at some point, you realize that you are running a business, not a charity. If he's like a certain brother I know, he'll resent you for years because you actually expected him to work. Why won't you just pay him to exist? Mine even resents me for reminding him about the money he owes me, even though he signed a loan agreement.
Forget about it, get on with life. Hire people carefully, make sure they know what you expect, and treat them well. The good ones will stay; the bad ones you don't need. Even if they're brothers. I firmly believe that families should help each other, but there is a limit. You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family.
LOL
so really you were just venting.... man i think we all understand... not that waverunner ride'n isn't important...
I know i've talked about the most talented guy i ever had working for me was a total crackhead... the guy was an artist a true artist and worked his butt off... but all the good can only go so far when they aren't there when you need em.... worse when they aren't there and your tools are missing too....
good luck in your search for good help.... like it's been said i think it's something you have to be on the lookout for everyday
p
I'd think you did the right thing Maverick. After a certain point, you're not helping him anymore anyway.... you're enabling him. Let him go out there in the big cold world and deal with a boss who doesn't have any emotional stake in the relationship. He'll learn. Or he'll run out of gas money for the wave runner.
FWIW, I'm struggling with a similar situation myself right now. My first employee is a knucklehead. A pretty good carpenter and a hard worker, but he just acts like a 15 year old kid. Blows his money on remote control cars and beer. With a wife and two little ones at home. I've saved him from eviction twice and getting his Explorer repo-ed once. Last Friday night his Explorer done got repo-ed. And he needs a lousy $850 to get it back. I'm letting him hang in the breeze this time. Sooner or later the kids gotta grow up.
It's a business.... not a charity.View Image
Lots of businesses use a modified version of your scheme for new hires, it's called a probation period. Hire the guy at $14 for 6 months. If he's a good employee, shows up regularly, etc., he gets a raise, if not he gets canned. I think the sliding scale you propose would be difficult to manage. What if he shows up for 4 days but works 12 hours each? Or shows up for 5 days but takes 2 hour lunches every day?