I shouldn’t be complaining since I’ve got a paycheck coming in but …….. ARRRRGHH!!! Last fall, just as the econonmy was tanking I was looking to find a steady paycheque and got hired to install windows. Not bad, I’ve worked on construction on and off for 10 years. First few jobs were renovation windows. Pop out the old glass and caulk the new window to the old frame. Wham, bam thank you Ma’am. No problem. Now I have a problem. Take this one as a fer instance. Nice house, ocean view, southern exposure. Read, weather problems. All the winter storms and all the summer sun. We rip out all the old windows and patio doors. One patio unit is replaced with a smaller window. We build up the bottom of the opening, 2×4’s, cover with 1/2 ply, tack a piece of tar paper over the opening. NO overlap ANY where! Window nailed in place. No caulking. No drip edge. Red tape over flange. Cedar trim 3 1/2 wide nailed one nail every 16 inches, dead center. Cedar trim has half a tube of caulking holding it in place. Inside, insulate in the openings cover with dry wall. NO vapour barrier. I found out if I mention the word ‘Code’ again I’ll lose my job!
I used to take pride in doing my work and would spend hours on BT to make sure I was doing things right. Now I have to learn to do it wrong. I’m dying here.
Replies
That sux.
I had a supervisor job for a commercial seismic retrofitter where my boss kept trying to get us to cut corners that might kill people some day. Some of it I did, some I flat out refused to do (he actually brought in one of the other crews to work on one f'd up detail that I refused to do with my crew).
At least you're not going to kill anyone.
And right now, a job's a job. Still, I feel for ya. That sux. Things'll look up. Keep your ear to the ground for a quality company, but if you can stand it, keep your mouth shut for now. It's not like if you refuse to do it wrong it'll get done right- you'll just lose your job, and someone else will do it (wrong).
Hang on to the fact that you know there's a better way, someday that'll be appreciated.
k
I'd say the company you're working for will be out of business once all this substandard work comes back on them with all the lawsuits. I don't know how readily jobs are available where your at right now, but if they are get a new one.
Yeah, instead of flashing maybe slip in a business card with the contractor's license number on it.
Ahh, but with all the water leaking in, the card will be rotting along with the framing. But, if you could waterproof the card...
I wondered why some window companys underbid me then i found out why, Very shoddy work.
At any rate stay there and Pimp yourself out till something else comes up..
Turn it into guerrilla warfare and sneak good work in when you can..
Dont stay to long you might get used to it though;]
You cannot continue, you'll have ulcers. Go back to the job after hours and tell the homeowner what's taking place. Tell anyone who will listen, and try to get this scum out of the industry. Where is this clown getting the jobs?
Funny but the most successful contractors can be the worst craftsmen. We had one in my town, most of us locals worked for him when we were young. Known to many as "Homes Unwanted". Everybody knew he was a terrible hack, using high school kids that had no experience and made things up as they went. He still built more houses than anyone else. Cheap, slip shod work put a lot of folks in their first house. Think of it as future work. Too bad anybody can buy a hammer and call themselves a carpenter but that's the way it is.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
My friend lives in a 200-300k house in a new subdivision. Every window in the sub leaks (bad flashing). I'm talking about dripping water when it rains.
The builder is out of business and now 20-30 homeowners sit with towels everytime it rains.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
It wouldnt be your fault if an inspector "happened to show up" at one of your sites just as your applying the red tape and half a tube of caulk.
I have a good relationhip with the BI in the area I work. Nothing stopping you from going in and maybe having a talk with him. Explain what is going on and maybe in passing mention where you'll be tomorrow.
I say this because the company you're working for sounds really bad. I've seen flashing leaks that required severe rebuilding. I think if this guy got a slap on the wrist he might see that for a few dollars more he could actually do a good job for his customers.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
your tolerance will vary but I worked for sleezballs before. When circumsatnces forced me to accept a job, any job.. I did untill I could find a replacement..
Worst case was a three year period.. I hated the job. I hated the people I worked with, and I used to wake up in the morning shaking. The pay and benefits were good.. so I stood it, but god I hated it!
I jumped at a new chance even though it wasn't as good..
There is a place for these honyocks. Bottom of the food chain. The bright side is someone will have to come along and re-do it. Some of the blame is on the HO because they are price shopping. I have had to come in and re-do a whole house because of shoddy work. HO was half of the problem.
I rarely post here but this REALLY touched a nerve.
I know EXACTLY how you feel.
I was on a job up until last week here in England. There is a Victorian open air museum and they are building a complete new street with about six separate buildings incorporating Victorian houses, shops, workshops etc.
Sounds like a good job, right?
WRONG!! Complete bodge.
I wonder sometimes how bad it's going to get.
How bad?
Skirting (baseboard) and architrave (casing) under a foot of snow for three weeks, soaking wet, frozen solid, carried straight into the building, with no windows installed and fixed. Something to see, great big ice sculptures all over the trim. Baseboard glued to the still wet plastered walls. Better yet, there was a sheet of ice over the back of the base so they put the glue on top of the ICE then just slammed it on the wall.
Floors glued down to soaking wet joists covered in mortar with white P.V.A. in temperatures of -15 degrees C
WTF is going on?
This is being built by a MAJOR national contractor. Big sign outside saying "Major contractor of the year" Every morning I walked past it and wondered "What the hell must the rest be like?"
I was ASHAMED to be associated with the whole shambles
I feel for you mate, I really do
Dave
Edited 2/20/2009 2:41 pm ET by Ace
Contractor wouldn't be an American Ex. Pat. would he? Sounds like all our "Major" builders her. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Unscrupulous builders are ubiquitous and have been around for the ages. A good portion of Hammurabi's Code was dedicated to enforcement of building codes brought about by shoddy workmanship. And that was Babylon some 5,000 years ago?
There is nothing particularly American about bad builders. John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
The part that makes me smile is that if you are the one that cares about what you do, takes a pride in what you do, then you are the one that is singled out as the oddball or weirdo, and they let you know, in no uncertain terms that you are not one of "the lads"
Something AIN'T right
Dave
There's a very old German prayer on the subject:"Gott uns betreut
von Maurer und Zimmerleut"It means, God protect us from masons and carpenters.BruceT
Just last week we found out that we were almost the number one business in the area. I have no idea on what merit, but it sure doesn't have anything to do with the workmanship.
I can't really say anything about the homeowners. They have no idea. They call up the company that has the best looking trucks in town, someone shows up right away and they assume that if the company is that big and that together they must do a right good job. At first I thought they were going to be pretty good to work for. New trucks in the parking lot with lots of tools on board. The homeowners need to be educated about the work. We are wrecking their houses and they just see that it looks great, assuming that everything they can't see is done properly. It's a shame cuz they trust us.
I can't really say anything about the homeowners. They have no idea. They call up the company that has the best looking trucks in town, someone shows up right away and they assume that if the company is that big and that together they must do a right good job... We are wrecking their houses and they just see that it looks great, assuming that everything they can't see is done properly. It's a shame cuz they trust us.
This thread speaks volumes on the issue of "craftsmanship" (or lack thereof), and its role in today's society. Also brings up a subject I broached awhile back - is crafsmanship a moral issue?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
The terms I'd use are workmanship and pride in workmanship. And yes, I feel it's a moral issue. In this instance, it's easier to ignorant of the implications of what you are doing.
With regard to what he says to the customers, I think he either needs to quit or keep his mouth shut. Maybe he could work to educate the workforce by bringing in xerox copies of magazine articles etc on proper window and door flashing, etc. and just leaving them laying around the break room or something...
Back to the pride in workmanship issue, maybe it's just because I work in the construction industry, but it seems like we are always the one who take the heat for the workmanship thing. It extends to many (all?) professions though. For example, in our neighborhood we have a set of covenants that were written by a lawyer, but the way they are written they are TOTALLY unenforceable. Ever seen an article about lack of pride in workmanship of attorneys?
Or how about doctors? I once had a tick on the back of my knee for several days. They thought I may have been exposed to lyme (sp?) disease. Dr prescribed a drug that makes one very sensitive to the sun - To a guy wearing work cloths, sun glasses, work boots and probably half sun-burned already. I fried before I figured out what was going on. There were other drugs that did the same thing that didn't have the sun sensitive side effect. Mistake? or was the Dr just in too big a hurry to see the next patient or go to lunch. You hear about doctors making mistakes, but what about just plain getting sloppy? Personally, I thought it was sloppy.
What about the lady at the tax office yesterday who kept answering phone calls and servicing these people while I waited in person to pick up my taxes? I was there first - luckily I wasn't in a hurry. Would this constitute doing a poor job on her part - or just a lack of common seance?
What about releasing computer programs with known bugs. "We gotta get it out to get the revenue"....
I could go on and on.
Good post. I agree, he has to be careful not to cross a line badmouthing the company he works for. Wonder what would happen if he tried to educate the boss, rather than the workforce, on the importance of doing it right. Probably get shot down, but again, its a conscience matter. He'll know he tried.
Many many years ago, I was a punk newbie apprentice on a union framing job. We were putting pre-fab roof panels up, which were 2' x 8' plywood panels with black felt and shake shingles already attached. The guys I worked with were getting high at breaktime, and treating the job like it was a joke. I watched them put the panels up, and even 'tho I was a newbie, I could tell they weren't doing it right.
I asked the foreman for an installation guide, but he had given it to the lead carpenter. I asked the lead carpenter for it, but he had lost it (and never bothered reading it). So I took the address off a product info sheet I found, and wrote asking for installation guidelines. They mailed me a copy (this was before internet). Hoo-boy, I could see then how many mistakes were being made.
I approached the foreman, and told him that I wanted to talk about the roof panel installs, and what was wrong about the way they were being installed. He cut me off before I even got started - these guys are journeymen carpenters, and he's not a babysitter, he has to assume they know what they're doing and can't be bothered with some newbie who thinks they know better, etc. blahblahblah, get lost kid, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
So several months later, after the first rain of the season, several of the first houses are completed, we're still framing toward the end of the tract, he approaches me. Uh, yeah, remember when we talked about the roofs being wrong? Well, a bunch of them are leaking, and I wondered if you could fix them."
I told him that the only way I knew of was to tear the roofs off and do them over correctly. He looked at me like I was crazy. They hired a professional roofer to try some bandaid surgery, which I knew wasn't going to solve the problems.
A few years later I drove by the tract. The entire tract had been re-roofed with tile shingles.
Another example: one of my employers used to take shortcuts that were in my opinion unethical, often leaving me caught between my conscience and my paycheck. So one day he told me to install a cabinet and bury an electrical outlet. I pointed out why that would be wrong, but he overided my opinion - he was the boss, he let me know. So I did it. And I agonized about it. So finally I suggested to the client that they call and ask where the electrical outlet went, and demand it be accessible. Few days later the boss sent me back to cut the outlet into the back of the cabinet.
I finally had to quit that job, because I was constantly being pressured to do things that felt unethical to me, even 'tho it was his company and his decision. I guess its kinda like they said at Nuremburg: "Just following orders" isn't a legitimate argument when your actions are causing harm to innocent people.
As far as the other examples given - seems to indicate the problem is a societal one, i.e. a society where personal work pride and responsibility are not allowed or encouraged, so substandard work becomes an accepted norm. One of the reasons I'm self-employed, I guess. I don't make much money, but I can live with myself."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
About the education part....one day I tried that discussing why blueskin should be used instead of red tape, I ended up in the boss's office and was told that we don't have to follow code(which is not true), and that if I wasn't comfortable with the way they did the work that maybe this wasn't the right job for me. Well it's not the right job but it's the only job I've got right now.
Onto the morality issue. I firmly believe that craftsmaship IS a moral issue. Many years ago I'd find myself walking a lot of the time. Seeing garbage in the ditch would bug me and I'd argue about whether I should pick up every piece I saw. The way it ended for myself was that if I saw something I was now aware of it and had an obligation to do something. I can't always pick up every piece, but somedays I wouldn't have time, so once in a while I'd make a point of bringing along some bags and cleaning 'my' stretch of the road. Same applies to work. I HAVE to do my best but I temper it with the needs of the situation. On this job that means doing whatever I'm told to do no matter how wrong it is. Bottom line is my family that are counting on my paycheque.
Bottom line is my family that are counting on my paycheque.
Got that, been there. The job I quit was after 4 years of sneaking around doing the right thing when the boss wasn't looking. Like someone said, get another job lined up before you quit this one! Conscientious guys like you are hard to find, someone out there is looking for an employee like you!"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
> As far as the other examples given - seems to indicate the problem is
> a societal one, i.e. a society where personal work pride and
> responsibility are not allowed or encouraged, so substandard work
> becomes an accepted norm. Huck, I couldn't agree with you more. By the looks of it in these forums a LOT of the people reading and replying in them think and feel the same way. I'm sure it has occurred to us all many times before, but, I repeatedly run into situations in life where I crave for a reliable idea on how to get EVERYONE to value those ideals. It blows my mind that human beings have been 'civilized' for thousands of years and yet the same, self-defeating, self-destructive ideas and behaviors still plague our entire world. How is it that the notion of 'competition' always seems to get hailed as a miraculous force of nature, while cooperation is eschewed as a path to mediocrity? How come no one uses the mush between their ears to think it through and see that competitions result in what? 'Losers'. When does anyone aspire to be a loser? Why can't everyone make the connection that the chance to be a 'winner' isn't worth the reality that sooner or later many people end up as loser's in some way. How'd we get sold on the idea that competitiveness leads to the best outcomes?How many of you have a Home Depot and a Lowe's within 1000 yards of each other? What an unconscionable waste! "That's competition", people will say. "It's good because the two stores will compete and we'll all benefit from ending up with a store that gives us the best products at the lowest prices. It'll pressure both to out do each other." But, how many MORE people overall would be even BETTER off if the resources and effort of building and operating one of the two stores was put toward creating and supplying people with some other aspect of their needs or desires instead? I'm not saying we should be socialistic and try and legislate cooperation into being. I'm saying that I wish people WANTED to cooperate with each other would find it foolish that someone would suggest it was necessary to try and force the idea on them. I think the world could become more amazing than most might imagine if that was so.If I was given the chance to convince everyone on the planet of just one idea it would be, that while competition is always a possible option, cooperation is the path to abundance, prosperity and happiness for everyone, not just winners. What stops that point of view from ever overtaking us? :)
Competition isn't all bad, but like everything, it has gotten out of control. So much emphasis is put on winning that it breeds a "winning isn't everything, its the ONLY thing" mentality. Win at all costs.
So you get stuff like steroid scandals in sports, olympic skater's leg gets broken, a competing cheerleader gets bumped off by another teen's mom, politicians smear their opponents with lies, exaggerate their own accomplishments and make false promises to get into office, kids cheat on tests, people lie on their resumes, ambitious singer (Beyonce) advances her career by hooking up with former drug dealer (Jay Z), who used his drug money to advance his own career, and no one says a word about the ethics of it, etc. etc.
As a society, we value wealth and image over virtue, character, or actual accomplishment. In our modern corporate-controlled media, value is confused with cheapness, success is measured in dollars, and words like "commitment" and "integrity" have become meaningless advertising fodder.
Craftsmanship, or excellence in any endeavor, without money or glory as its object, is viewed an outdated notion, a foolish waste of time pursuing a goal no one cares about. A "factory-made" or "pre-fab" mentality has all but replaced appreciation for personal craftsmanship. "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
brings to mind my thot's when I read thru Remodeling Mag's "top" remodelers ...
Sears is usually listed.
Have seen the name of some bigger companies I'm familiar with.
like you said ... appearantly to be "Top 50" or what ever company you really don't have to do good work.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Does the company legally reorganize occaisionally, so that technically they are not the same for legal purposes, and no longer exist to take legal action against.
I've seen a few of those down through the years.
The company hasn't changed names in over 10 years. I think that by the time there is a problem the house has changed hands and nobody knows any better. I did note that the company does not have their name anywhere on the product except a sticker.
After reading all your responses, I started feeling better about myself and realized that I really do have quite a bit to offer an employer since I really do care about my work. I've pulled out my resume, reworked it and started handing it out. Thanks for all the encouragement guys!
>> The company hasn't changed names in over 10 years. I think that by the time there is a problem the house has changed hands and nobody knows any better. <<
And I think you also said it was one of the biggest window/door replacement companies around.
My guess is they have built their business on delivering the product for the best prices. IE - HOs like them because they are cheap. So, if that is the case, don't feel like these HOs are like lambs being lead to the slaughter.... You get what you pay for. And I'd bet $100 there is a conscientious small contractor or 2 in your area who does a great job with proper workmanship but who constantly gets underbid by the company you work for. Who knows? That small guy might hang out here at BT...
So don't feel like it is all the fault of "the company". To a certain degree, consumers pick their fate, and they definately drive the market.
On their behalf, in order to get that big they probably honor their warranties which obviously helps with public perception. As old school as it may seem, my goal is no warranty calls necessary.... They are probably also reasonably prompt and dependable. Your challenge for now (besides finding a new job) is to figure out how to increase quality without increasing operating costs.
Edited 2/26/2009 7:46 am ET by Matt
As noted, the homeowners can be all or part of the problem.As for bid shopping, that I don't blame them for, for the most part, because they lack knowledge and sincerely believe they are getting the best deal. The problem I have is when I tell them what they want wont work, either now or in the future. For example, I had one lady so insisted on eight inch insulation in her four inch walls. No amount of explaining could change her mind.I've learned an important rule: If every contractor who worked for the homeowner was a problem, I will be too, so I would do well to pass on the job.When I was in law, I worked a couple IRS cases involving a grand jury indictment. The IR agents broke every rule in the book, which is to be expected. In response, we noticed the agents of the laws they were violating and had them served. We, clearly and in no uncertain terms, pointed out to them the law allowed us to hold them individually and personally liable for any damages they caused by acts outside the scope of their authority. We also informed them their only recourse for judgments against them out of having followed their superior's instructions would be to sue them. To do so, however, required they be able to prove the orders were given, so they should consider demanding they be in writing. We went on to note that, if their superiors balked at giving the orders in writing, the agents should be concerned, since it was likely to allow them to deny having made the orders, to avoid liability.All the agents, old timers to the profession, quit the case and new ones were assigned (starting the process over again, but the client won, in the end).The point is, it may be to your benefit to document, at least by a daily journal, the facts that could come back to haunt you.
Well some interesting comments.
First keep a list of all work done and addresses.
for two reasons potential liability and as a list to call in 3-4 years to fix the problem as your own company.
My first month on the job as a Registered Nurse, I was asked to get a consent form signed for a back surgery. The client wanted to talk to the doctor first so did not sign. The right of informed consent is very clear about this. So I told my head nurse he wanted to talk to the doctor first. Well she just took a strip off my back. The surgeon walked in during the tear down, and said for me to get him to sign or tell him we will just cancel his surgery. I responded that I would not use intimidation and jeprerdize my probation period for your convenience. Now I got him ripping my face off and my head nurse. When they paused I simply said." by this time you could and talked to him, got the form signed and been on you way ". I walked out of the room and got on to my duties. later she was giving me a reality check and was overheard by other staff. Well she did not last long and she was gone.The surgeon never forgot and road my back for a while, Later I worked in the OR. this surgeon pushed all my button's till he flat out threatened to cut my tongue out! as I tried to keep a fight down between the assistant surgeon, anesthetist and other nurse.My co workers were horrified and commented about my personal safety as this doc had "Big Connections" A couple days later he just walked up and apologies, the anesthetist told the CEO of the hospital what happened and he was going to get his butt kicked out if he didn't. later I found out I could have sued him and the hospital.
Anyway I was never asked to anything unethical by anyone. But I burnt out and now am a happy renovator making far less but can sleep.Make sure you have a plan before bailing!
Take some kind of training to up grade your skills!
Make a Vodoo doll of the boss and use it to redirect emotions
Make a youtube video of "How Not TO"
Document, document,document.I have heard many homeowners who, brag about how little they paid for some one to do some thing and I remember them under the "to busy to give a quote right now" category.I hope things perk up.