Always fun to find out what’s causing the cracks to form around doorways and such. Obviously something is settling… but to figure out WHY.
Found a 49′ reason today for some cracks.
jt8
“Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.”
— Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/16/2005 3:11 am by JohnT8
Replies
Condensation=rot=settling. Lack of proper bearing on post.
Also vapor barrier (foam) on wrong side. Don't do that.
There is more going on there than just an inadequate post plate. Water has been getting into that beam for a long time. I think you have some serious structural issues. There shouldn't be that much weight, that close to a outside wall, in a typical residential structure. That built up beam must be soft as a sponge unless there is a fully loaded concrete truck parked upstairs.
Sister on some 2x4's and you'll be good as new. Be sure to use plenty of long sheetrock screws, and a couple of dabs of liquid nails.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Best of luck fixing that. Our structural engineer specified heavy welded interfaces that wrap around the LVL and the post, presumably for situations like this.
Whenever you finish this project, please post pictures and a narrative, as I'm interested to know how this kind of a problem is attacked in the real world. Presumably, it'll require cutting out the bad beam while supporting the floors above, then scarfing it into the extant, still-good beam.
I guess the first thing to address though is the constant water source and the clueless homeowner who ignored the issue until just before it destroyed his/her house.
Edited 11/16/2005 8:37 am ET by Constantin
I guess the first thing to address though is the constant water source and the clueless homeowner who ignored the issue until just before it destroyed his/her house.
The story from the lawyer was that the house had been vacant for 5 years (the owner's estate has been in the process of liquidating for that long). The story from a lady I talked to at work is that the house was vacant when she lived 4 doors down in 1990-94. Story from another co-worker who lives several houses in the other direction is that the owner's father had lived in the house and when he died she refused to sell it.. or basically do much of anything with it. You can be that way when you have money. The interesting thing is that her father died in 1974... so does that mean its been vacant for 21 years? That would be pretty amazing ona house built in 1971.jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
There's lots happening here to deal with. I assume that the end of the post sits in a pocket in the wall...and water is wicking in there. The wet/dry cycle of the heating duct is adding to the problem (getting damp then drying out is hard on lumber - be one or the other). The post looks like a stop-gap measure. And how about the u/side of the joists?
Jack up the floor above first. Remove the b/up beam, line the pocket with water-retarding conc or even with bitumen . Install a replacement beam - use pressure treated if you wish - to span to the nearest bearing point. Wrap the end of the beam in something waterproof - Blueskin, asphalt shingle or the like. If the u/s of joists are affected, scab some 2x alongside while the floor's jacked up. I don't think you need worry about the insulation, unless there's no bitumen on the o/s of the wall, but in any case I'd splash some coating on the o/s in any case where the pocket is to make sure.
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Jack up the floor above first. Remove the b/up beam, line the pocket with water-retarding conc or even with bitumen .
You're thinking in the same ballpark. Our plan is to put some bottle jacks on 2x12 scraps, use 4x4's sections as the vertical element and then additional 4x4 (maybe 8-12' long) as the temp beams. Jack the sucker up. Remove the bad beam. Insert new beam. Remove temp beams.
We haven't decided whether to jack the whole 49' span at once, or to do it in 2 or 3 or so lifts.
Also, waiting to hear back from the engineer to see if steel would be doable. Lets see the house nibblers eat a steel beam!
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
as msg 10 said, you've got termites. Bad termites to cause that much damage.The arrows in the attched section copied, magnified, and lightened points out the obvious tubes in just that one section(so delicately expressed by our beloved wordsmith as "snot" <G>)You need to get a good termite guy for treatment in AND a good structural guy to find where else they've been that needs repair.As someone said, I think that post was added well after the problem was underway, and that post is no spring chickenPlaces to consider looking: every inch of sill plate and joists (looks like their damaged at the beam, but tough to tell from the pic) rim joists, subfloor, walls, ceilings, possibly even roof structure!Don't forget to pull all of the foam insulation: they love to form their tubes behind that stuff
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Here were some more lovely pics:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=66014.1
I had the engineer and the bugman out on the same day. Bugman says it is an old colony that had been erradicated years ago. Engineer said that the main beam was the only significant structural damage (although he didn't go into the attic, maybe there's something up there).
From his report: "In review of CABO, the allowable span for a triple 2x8 girder is 5'9 for a 32' width home..." So the jack posts were a bandaid measure added later to cut the 13' & 11' spans in half.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
How did the poop get on the wall?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
How did the poop get on the wall?
Actually, that was what I first thought when I shined the light over there. Eventually the light bulb went off in my head and I put 2 and 2 together and realized the poop stains coincided with the spots where the blueboard had come down.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Wow. I've never seen a beam made out of Balsa wood before:
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Hey, save those boards - you could make a really big kite out of them later!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
It almost looks like there are some termite mud tunnels, but it is hard to tell from the pics. Hard to imagine just moisture causing this probelm this far from the end of the beam.
What's the stuff hangin down from the beam...looks like snot?
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Now you know what happens when you keep a basement full of monkeys chained to typewriters...
well, besides publishing FHB magazine, I mean. ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Check out erk's comment in #10, he nailed it. jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Check out local salvage yards. And local iron/steel recyclers.You just might find some steel that will work, for very cheap.
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of coloured ribbon. - Napoleon Boneparte
Yea, its water . Im gonna have to write somebody up. <G> I want somebodys butt over this deal . Of I forgot , I dont do that any more. <G>
Ah, other than water you mention 49 feet if thats not a mis print. Whats the span on those there posts son?
Other than obvious water comming in it doesnt look like theres anything taking it out either by the looks of the other stuff around it .
I looked hard and seen some waves in that board like dry rot which is caused my moisture constant with out ventilation. The friend that mentioned using the lumber for a kit will be right on . It will amaze you what that beam ways when you get it out . Yea, its comming out .
You better start looking for termites as well. Looks like a natural borm home for them if you live in a warm state . If you dont have them you can figgure yourself dadgum lucky over that.
Good heads up John . Some folks would have just taped those cracks amd moved on. Which brings me to the over asked question that stringer said ; Why does this keep happening ? Sumthin to talk about whittlein I guess and to ponder over a strong brew.
Tim
Yea, its water . Im gonna have to write somebody up. <G> I want somebodys butt over this deal . Of I forgot , I dont do that any more. <G>
For all the work that beam is going to cost me, it is probably what got me the house. Most of the contractors who showed up for the auction were spooked by that beam.
I've got a call in to my engineer asking what size STEEL beam I'd need to replace it. I'm ripping up the subfloor anyway, so I can probably get reasonably sized steel beam segments down there.
Ah, other than water you mention 49 feet if thats not a mis print. Whats the span on those there posts son?
Actually, the spans aren't too bad. The house was built with 3 concrete block support posts. Longest span is 13'. The remainder are right around 11'. The biggest problem is that they used 2x8's. Probably made for a bouncy floor, so at some later date they had gone back in and added 4 metals posts to split the spans. That should have helped except they didn't put a good metal plate on the top of the post.. plus the other issues.
erk gets the milkbone for correctly identifying the termites. The water damage is apparent. Haphazard, patchwork vapor barrier in crawl, plus a water pipe had froze while the house was vacant and the place filled up with water. Plus Piko might be right, the ends might be wicking water in.
I will start another thread with the lovely termite issue. Must have been enough of them to actually HEAR them!
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/18/2005 2:07 am by JohnT8
"I've got a call in to my engineer asking what size STEEL beam I'd need to replace it."
The Springfield plant stocks steel beams. And I can size it for you, if you can get me the info TODAY. (I may not be in tomorrow)
If you need something for the building department, that may be a different story. I don't know if they'll accept a report that I print out...
Bumpersticker: Boldly Going Nowhere
Can you describe what's involved in sizing steel? What sorts of factors/indfo do you need?
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Sorry that I cannot give you specifics other than, "the same info as should be needed for wooden beams". I imagine you need the dead load, the distribution thereof, the usual safety factors (live load?), the jack spacing intended below, etc. If I remember my statics class correctly (and that's a big if), once you know the loads that are going to get imposed, you can get to work finding an I-beam that can handle the moment (which determines the flange width/thickness), and the vertical load (which determines the thickness/height of the web joining the flanges) for a given support spacing.We found that one of our upper-storey load bearing walls had nothing but a standard ceiling underneath (2x8 joists on 16" centers, 15' span). Luckily, we already had a structural engineer to call, so he came out, we got to see his eyes open-wide in wonderment (that the house hadn't fallen down), followed by him returning to his office to figure out what could be put in place. Steel was the only thing that could take the loads for the given ceiling thickness. The first I-beam is joined in a T to another I-beam (the first I-beam hits the exterior wall above a bay window), then the vertical load is transmitted to the foundation via 6x6 or thicker posts (I don't recall the exact width, it could have been an 8x8). The floor doesn't budge, so we must have done something right...
Edited 11/18/2005 8:52 am ET by Constantin
>>you can get to work finding an I-beam that can handle the moment ....Thanks. I confess, my eyes start to glaze and my mind goes into rewriting history mode the moment when the engineering "moment" rears its head <G>
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Sizing a steel beam is basically the same as sizing a wood beam. The basic info you need is how far the beam spans between posts, and the PLF load the beam is carrying. The span between posts is easy - The PLF may or may not be.The simplest case would be a beam on something like a 20' wide house. Assuming you have 10' floor joists coming into the beam from both sides, the beam would carry 10' of floor load. (5' from both sides)Assuming a 55 PSF load on the floor, that would mean the PLF load would be 10' times 55 PSF, giving you a 550 PLF load on the beam. Then you either go to a span chart or run the beam in a computer program designed for that purpose. I generally use a program called "BeamCheck". It's pretty simple and can handle all but the most complex beams. http://www.beamchek.com/.Getting the correct info is often the hardest part of the design process. When I ask people how much a beam carries, they tell me "Just some floor load". When I ask them how much, they say: "Oh, it's not all that much". Sometimes it's hard to get the idea across that you need actual numbers. (-:.Sizing beams in older houses can be problematic. Sometimes there's roof load on them, sometimes there isn't. Or you might be dealing with a 1.5 story house. Joists on the 2nd floor might run the opposite direction of those on the first. If you're REALLY interested, BeamCheck has a PDF document on their website called "Introduction to Load Paths and Wood Design". It gives a lot of practical examples on how to figure loads on beams.http://www.beamchek.com/AcrobatFiles/IntroLoadPath.pdf.Is that what you were looking for?
All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. [Edmund Burke]
Thanks - that pdf looks really good.The best reference (or at least the one I best understand) for understanding loads I have is an old book on deck building that I always have to search for.That pdf will come in very handy.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
The Springfield plant stocks steel beams. And I can size it for you, if you can get me the info TODAY. (I may not be in tomorrow)
Didn't get home until late. The engineer's report: "A steel wide flanged beam could be considered in lieu of the timber, the beam size would need to be W8x15 member and could be installed in segments."
But he doesn't say if the w8x15 can span the 11-13' between concrete block posts... or is it being supported the the concrete block posts as well as the jack posts.
An 8" beam sounds pretty serious for a single story house. Roughly 32x49 (beams runs in the 49' direction). About a 4in12 rafter'ed roof without any posts in the attic.
Probably would get it in 3 segments with some way to attach them. Subfloor is coming up, but the joists aren't (except one or two), so the segments would need to be wriggled between the joists.jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
"An 8" beam sounds pretty serious for a single story house."
Off the top of my head, a W8X15 sounds about right given the criteria you mentioned. But I ain't going back to work today, so I can't confirm it.
Springfield stocks those, but they won't sell to you directly - You have to go through a lumberyard. (like R.P.) It might be worth checking prices against them vs. Selvaggio steel.
An LVL beam might be lighter and easier to get in there and put in place. Have ya thought about that?
I'm not your type - I'm not inflatable.
I agree with Boss Hog. Look into an LVL. Steel shapes are not very efficient in this use and the weight will be considerable....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
An LVL beam might be lighter and easier to get in there and put in place. Have ya thought about that?
The price will probably decide it. If steel is way off the charts, then I'll be looking for alternatives. But otherwise, bugman's assurances aside, if there is even a small chance that the house nibblers could come back, I'd rather have steel. Steel beam segments sitting on the concrete pockets and the concrete block posts.
Springfield stocks those, but they won't sell to you directly - You have to go through a lumberyard. (like R.P.) It might be worth checking prices against them vs. Selvaggio steel.
Selvaggio and ASI (i think its called now) will both be getting calls. Hadn't thought to try RP.jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
pic 3 had a better view of the supports.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan