Ok,
I have a recent post concerning a contractor I hired to build a 2.5 ft granite rubble type wall mortared on the back side. I live in Atlanta and have red clay soil. He maintains he needs no gravel footing or footing of any sort for the wall while I believe there should be a foot of compacted gravel beneath the wall which should be 1/3 wider than the wall.
I even dug the trench around where the wall will go and he says now, he can’t guarantee it if there is gravel underneath it because it will shift.
Am I crazy? This guy comes highly recommended and I’ve seen his work, but I just can’t believe that he will only guarantee it if laid directly on the ground?? He says he has done it this way for 25 years. I’ve already paid 1/3rd down for him to start work and he delivered about 12 tons of rock to the site. Is this serious enough that I should consider another contractor?
Thanks in advance.
Jon
Replies
Jonbyrd--
Believe the responses might run 50/50 on this one. Realize intuition says expansive soils and building a wall = drainage. But I would go with the guy. Outbuilding foundations here in New England oftentimes didn't pierce the frost line, yet the old timers built them straight on the existing soils--which were often clay. Another common method was just 2" of sand, but truly wonder what air spaces were left after the stone got set. Do know the old time masons I knew, and talking here the real pros from Italy, didn't want nothing but virgin dirt on which to build their retaining or decorative walls...
Regards,
Rework
I'm up in New England, so we have more freeze/thaw to deal with than you...plus, we don't have that dreaded red clay...
Still, If I'm having a mortared wall built, I want it on a solid, poured footing.
If it's a dry wall, then it can be put directly on virgin subsoil, or on a trench filled with compacted base material. The ground may heave a bit here and there as the clay expands/contracts from absorbed moisture or from freezing (frost heaves), but the dry wall can flex with that movement. A mortared wall may crack.
Much depends on the topography of the lot as well. You may be able to get away with methods on high, well-draining ground that would murder you on low, water-collecting ground.
There's my theory. Does it apply in ATL? I'm not an ATL guy, so I really can't comment. I don't see why he wouldn't want to build on a well-compacted bed of base material...but it's his work. If he comes well recommended, if he's been busy for 25 years, if you've seen his work and it's quality and has held up over time...why not trust him?
Your options seem to be to let him do it his way and accept his guarantee, or to have him build it your way with no guarantee.
Me? I defer to the ones that have been around for a long time...as long as he's not an old-time ostrich-type, where he simply refuses to accept new technology. This doesn't sound like that type of situation.
Still, you've trenched for a footing, and the trench needs to be filled. You may as well put in a good well-draining base down (instead of refilling with the clay), plate compact it, then let him set the stone.
Edited 11/7/2002 1:03:55 PM ET by Mongo
Thanks for the responses. He said he would just start the wall down in the trench, so that should be below the frost line. I'm going to let him run with it, I just wanted another opinion. It won't be completely dry stack as it will be mortared from the back side. However we probably won't be in the house more than another 5 years, so it should still look fine when we sell it. Thanks again.
Jon
Call the county inspectors office and ask them.
LOL
I can't believe that YOU, of all people, said that!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
hey no matter how stupid I think they are, they are the law. you got to do what the man says.
If they say "footing" its a no brainer, put down a footing.
I did a pretty big wall of river rock a cpl a houses ago. Was about five feet high and forty feet long and acted as a retaining wall. No foundation at all. I'm on Long Island in NY. Lived with it about ten years or better with not a drop of shifting. I pass the house to this day.....about five years later and it still looks awesome. The only stupid thing I did was mortor the stones together which was totally unescessary. I went overboard. Yet I didnt pour a footing....hmmmm.
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Let's go back to the original post...
1. He said the wall is going to be 2.5' high. From my experience, the municipality does care until it's 3' high or more.
2. The type of wall is to be mortared from the backside. I notice more of the work being done today across the country is of this style. It looks drystacked from the front. So what if there's some shifting. The crack won't be seen until it gets so bad that the stones fall out - and that's a function of the type of stone being used coupled with the mason's skill.
3. The normal foundation that we think of is commonly engineered for additional weight loads in addition to having to support it's own brittleness. Such a low wall won't have that load. Any foundation movement must be designed into the build. Either by providing for a flexible foundation, adequate drainage, and/or expansion joints.
4. The site of the build. The amount of natural drainage or lack of moisture can affect the need for a type of foundation.
5. A properly built wall becomes its own foundation. If the man's been doing it for 25 years, he knows how to place a stone.
I believe you have made two good decisions so far. One is deciding to build it. Two is hiring an experienced professional with good references.
You've got two more important things to do. One is to let him do the job. Two is to pay him.
The wall will look just fine. Neither you or anyone else will care how the man does what they can't see. As long as it works. And he can easily build that function into the wall by doing it the way he does it.
I'd go with the guy too. A row of stone is a footing.
If you really want the wall secure, get a truckload of rebar, then drill some 24" pilings 10' deep or to your soil engineers specifications. Run the centers around 8' and join them with some nice 16" X 24" tie beams. Install drainage to your Engineers specs and you'll have a nice solid wall.
Choose your style of overkill
Thanks all for the input. As I said in the last response, he has the job and is proceding with it. I feel more comfortable now.
And yes, I plan to install the 24 foot deep pylons with rebar, thanks for the great suggestion.
Jon
If you really want the wall secure, get a truckload of rebar, then drill some 24" pilings 10' deep or to your soil engineers specifications. Run the centers around 8' and join them with some nice 16" X 24" tie beams. Install drainage to your Engineers specs and you'll have a nice solid wall.
Gordsco--
Why did you have to give me any ideas? Although above I posted just build it on virgin dirt, your specs meet my genetic desire to overbuild. I've been pondering rebuilding about a atwo foot high wall that is starting to show its age. Your idea sounds great, one question #3 or #4 on the rebar?
Regards,
Rework
Now me, I'd use #10 bar every 12 inches unless you're going over 3 ft high. Then these bars need to be dowled and epoxied into each stone.
As was said, choose your own brand of overbuilding.
Used to live in the New Lebanon, NY Shaker Village...the Shakers built stone walls that are wide enough and flat enough to drive a Morris Minor down, now. No footings, no mortor, just good dry stack stonelaying.
And around here, red clay is the good stuff, well draining soil... I think your mason knows what he doing... It's okay, I can fix it!
Bucky
From my own personal experience I agree with you whole heartily.
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Question...
Is this "red clay" different from the clay I'm used to seeing in CT...the expansive stuff that is not the best to build on? Is it actually a clay, or is it just called "red clay"?
Thanks,
Mongo
I'm going to have to check it out...the stuff here is definetly slippery and red, but it's the best soil for septic fields...I had never given it's expansiveness any thought til now, other than the gowing popularuty of The Red Clay Ramblers<G> It's okay, I can fix it!