here’s the deal, y’all…
i’m a finish carpenter in and around the boston area. i’ve been working for this company for about 3 months. i’m on a crew with 2 other guys. we do middle of the road to lower high end type work. they started me at $18/hr. which, at the time, was fine. i’ve been comparing my work to the work of the other 2 guys i work with. there’s the lead who does solid, quality work. he makes $25. and then the other guy, who i usually compare myself to, makes $24/hr. now in my estimation, the quality of my work is far superior to his. granted, he’s fast but he’s the type of guy who caulks stuff rather than taking the time to make a perfect fit (that’s me). i can do everything he can do, with the exception of stairs… which i’m getting into. anywho, i want to ask for a raise b/c i get pissed that i do better quality work and he’s getting $6 more an hour. how much do u think is appropriate to ask for????? and what do most finish carpenters make??
i guess i should also mention my previous experience. i’ve worked doing carpentry during college vacations and summers, both for a super high end GC and for myself. i’m 22.
Replies
I'm not going to get into the rate, but I might suggest you take a slightly different tack.
Since you have only worked 3 mos. and only have part time experience I think you could satisfy your need for some recognition by asking the boss how he thinks you've progressed in these 3 months. Follow that up with a question on what it would take as a goal to work your way up with this company. You mention the other crewmember's ability to produce fast, an asset to most contractors. That will oftentimes temper keen sharp work. Perhaps his attendance record and reliability are something special. I don't think you should ever base a raise on comparisons to others. You should back up your request with your own positives. Take this with a grain of salt from me, I'm just an old dumb carpenter.
Best of luck in the trades.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
if it is advice you want i got it , i say ask and if you dont get the money , walk . i did and true i dont make the steady pay but im happy if there is any thing to that . i asked didnt get so i stopped showing up at the office and made my presence at the locel hardware store asking people as they exit if they need help on a project i end up making more then i was asking for from my employer
jj... gimme a break... you're hanging out at the hardware store soliciting work
and making more than you used to at your old job at your old rate ?
hmmm.. why don't this compute ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think it was GOOD advice he was looking for, jj. At his age, he needs to be in a place where he can be learning and adding to his skills. The guys who do that end up making twice the bucks five years later. how many return customers and referals did you say you are getting?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
First of all, lose the "pissed" attitude. That will get you nowhere. Not to put you down, but when I was 22 (shortly after the earth cooled), my opinion of my skills than was ever so slightly higher than the actual truth. Now - almost 40 yrs later - I'm surprised that someone didn't shoot me. - lol
When you hired on, was there any mention of a raise if you worked out? If so, three months is enough time for the boss to know how it's going, so bring it up...... in a friendly way. Even if that wasn't part of the deal, bring it up anyway (in a friendly way) and see where it goes.
You mentioned spending time making perfect fits and that may be working against you. Middle of the road jobs are usually much more cost (i.e. time) sensitive and they may want you to sacrifice some of that quality for speed.
It would be completely appropriate to point out that you feel that your work is on par with the others but it's the bosses opinion that counts - lol
I think you halt to guit whining. I been at my company 22 years, another guy been they 12 years and make $6 more hour than me. A third guy only been there 6 years and make 50 cent more hour than me. But the company a real nice place. If you dont like the money, grass is greener somewhere else. If you want more money then you know what to do, drop to your knees.
Johnny, are you suggesting the kid smooch heinie?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
You mentioned spending time making perfect fits and that may be working against you. Middle of the road jobs are usually much more cost (i.e. time) sensitive and they may want you to sacrifice some of that quality for speed.
Correct, dead on.
In addition, at 22 you cant be a finish carpenter, ask again in 10 years. Someone else put it softer, but there is a lot more to learn than what you do everyday to have added value to a company. Its the once in a while decision making that makes a big difference, that only experience can bring. oh and do you have a full set of your own tools including truck or van? Thats a big show of position for a finish carpenter to a GC.
example: when I was 19 I thought I knew everything. When I was 21 I looked back and could see what I didnt see, and thought I still knew a bunch. When I was 27 I was sure there was a lot more to learn, now I dont know much. Think about what you were at 19 and decide. Then go take a look at Gary Katz Finish Carpentry book and see if you can pull it all off.
You may do good work, but 18 an hour from someone else is good money. You forget they are paying a bunch of other costs to have you on their team, and probably paid 3k just to set you up with the company 3 months ago. If you were on your own and paying for work Ins, comp, self emp tax, and doing all the office work, bidding, planning, and selling, your 25 an hour becomes like 4.
If you want to look around thats always advised, but you dont even have a record yet to be rehired by someone else.
You will most likely get a raise in 9 months, If you dont make enough try getting a License and do side work on the weekends. I think it would be ok to talk to the boss, but you better check your position first.
-zen
Edit: I want a raise too, but you cant squeeze cream out of a rutabaga, or a client, and when you are the sole proprietor you cant get a promotion. - what a client will pay IS the limit.
Edited 1/8/2005 8:42 pm ET by zendo
Wow, should I just say ditto. I went thumbin' through other thresds before I came back to reply, and you coulda wrote mine!!
ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Bozer-
Slloooowwwww down dude! 22 ain't jack in the trades, no matter how many "summers with the ol' man" or whatever. I'm only 30 and just reached my milestone 10yr anniversary as a "carpenter". Framing, siding, trim, I can do it all faster & better 'n anyone! At least I thought so with a solid 2 years in!
There are so many things that make a carp a good carp. Much more than production. Any bonehead can cut a stud, hang & trim a door, sheath a roof, etc, but employers need hands on experience. Good job site attitudes. Job site management. Safety. Reliability. These are only some of the qualities that will get someone their raise. I'm sure you have these. You seem like a smart guy. The money will come!
Been there. I'm sure most people here have at least felt like this sometime. If you like the company, stick around. Show the higher-ups whats what. It won't be tomorrow, but the money will come.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I think you halt to guit whining. I been at my company 22 years, another guy been they 12 years and make $6 more hour than me. A third guy only been there 6 years and make 50 cent more hour than me. But the company a real nice place.
Maybe those other two guys paid attention in English class.
you are 100% right, but english is my second langage so it is differcult to understand.
Then please accept my appology. Just curious, what is your 1st language?
thebozer ,
Maybe the other guys making the 24-25 dollars have been there for some time . As was said maybe the boss starts you out low makes sure you will work then a bit at a time gives you raises for incentive . If we all started at the top of the scale then we would have little to look forward to. Maybe you could look around and see if there are any other jobs available and even go as far as interview for them and find out what they start at. That may give you more perspective of reality. If you get a solid offer then you will be in a stronger bargaining position. Something to think about the quailty of work verses quantity. One guy may hang 25 doors a day, he may totally screw up about 4 or 5 of those and have to redo them. Then you have someone like me or maybe you who can hang 4 doors perfectly in one day , hmmmm.
dusty
Unless your duties have been increased substantially since you were hired, 3 months is too soon to be looking for a raise. 6-12 months is a more reasonable interval.
At 3 months the boss doesn't know if you're going to maintain your current quality of work, get better, or get worse. Lots of folks go like gangbusters for 3 months and then tire of the job and start goofing off.
You're doing fine. What you don't have on your side is time and experience. It may seem so to you now that you do, but see me in 20 to 30 years after you have perhaps mastered finish carpentry, and if you're still making $18 an hour then maybe you can complain a bit...maybe. I think the main thing to do is to concentrate on the craft. Study it. Become more than just good at it. Learn other trades along the way, maybe stop finishing for a year and work with a framing crew. Learn how to lay wood floors quickly. Learn how to make a perfectly straight wall, in plaster. Do woodworking for a while, cabinets etc. Learn layout. Go back to finishing maybe higher end, non production. You'll see a big change. Be patient, you're doing fine. I think Zendo's post is worth re-reading. Good luck.
how come you know how much the other guy make, that is usually confidental information, have you been snooping. Beside $18 here is top wages. lest than 1% see over 20 here.
"how come you know how much the other guy make, that is usually confidental information, have you been snooping. Beside $18 here is top wages. lest than 1% see over 20 here."
Well how come you knew how much your coworkers made? Isn't that confidential information? You think cost of living might be a tad higher in Boston area than where you and I live? DanT
I'm just outside of Boston myself, $18/hr is right about where he should be.... maybe even a little high. 3 months full time?..... quityerbitchin and get back to work... is my advice to him.
Whats up with this... this guy doesnt even show up for breaktime to respond to his posts, and he wants a raise.
bout time for a Hijackin'
I gut ur raise...
Fap, Fap, Fap
because after 22 years, I have been snooping, I have keys to every lock, I have password to all computer. But I am happy not making top dollar. when lay off time comes, Im safe. I can live very well atmy rate. I do not have to produce like top dollar dude does. I can alway make 40 even on rain days. Top dollar got to go home, can pay him to set around. I make it up on overtime. Cheaper for me to get overtime than top dollar dude. So I get all I want.Plus cost of living way down.
You know? I wondered when you said a while back that you put up with GC yelling at you all the time on the job what was up, now I see.
You're a "get by dude". Whatever to just get by. No need to do a little extra, just get by. Like a new truck but used will do as long as I get by. Like a new saw but the one I have will do. Yeah I get it. Ok, glad you are happy. DanT
Sounds like you think there's something wrong with Brownbagg's position? Guys like that are what keep businesses in business. No everyone wants to run their own business or needs to be top dog in the spotlight 24/7. Thank God. I've got a guy like BB, and he's the main artery in my company. Other guys come and go..... the lazy ones, the gun slingers who think they're Norm Abrams with 6 months in the trade, the thiefs, the drunks, the drifters..... they all come and go.... slow and steady wins the race.
Good point Diesel.
Not all employees have the same abitions and desires as we might. In fact it's a huge mistake to assume that they do, or will, or can be coaxed and trained into thinking like us. I made that exact mistake for about 15 or 20 years in my business before I finally gave up and started accepting people for what they are, not what I wanted them to be.
I also read a very good book that explained my mis-management in a very clear and informative way. I'm now much more relaxed dealing with people that I manage and work with and life is a lot easier.
We all can't and don't want to be the Alpha male.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I heard him say that he makes a very fine living. Not just "getting by". I heard him also say that he gets a lot of overtime because they don't want to pay the top dollar guy to work overtime. He doesn't have to kill himself to make that top dollar, but seems to get exactly what he needs to make himself happy.
Dan, I also have a hard time understanding people who don't seem to have goals or aspirations for bigger things. But, we can't all be type-A personalities, and those easygoing folks are fun to hang out with. They must have less stress and can focus on things other than work.
You may be missing his point..... (BB)
The difference is that his idea of "bigger things" and your idea of "bigger things" are very different. It seems that guys like you and me see "bigger things" as more profit, more efficient techniques, more "stuff".... etc.
Other folks see "bigger things" as the goal of freedom from financial insecurity, less stress, more time and energy for the family, etc. Giving less to your job often times leaves more to give to other (and equally important) parts of life.
I should probably be letting BB speak for himself here, but I've already opened my big mouth. I think it may be hitting home some as I've been doing a little soul searching myself lately. I wonder if I'm working 50% harder to get 5% ahead.... and at what total cost to those around me...... stuff along those lines.
dp.... i see frenchy posted his rough terrain fork lift advice..... kinda snuck it in..
here it is ...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=52365.15Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just read it through an hour or so ago..... seems like good advice. Thanks for the heads-up though. Looks like I need to expand my thinking to include IR's machines.... had pretty much settled on a 1 yr old CAT TH360 with all the bells and whistles..... $21,000 less than a new one. Closing on that property on Friday though.... gotta get through that before I really hammer out this deal. Thanks again and Go Patriots! I'm routin' for Denver today and was happy to see the Jets pull it off last night.
More good points Diesel!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You may be missing his point..... (BB)
Actually I was trying to say the same thing you did. But you said it better ;-)
My bad.... sorry for the unwarranted lecture!
Your post reminds me of an old saying.'Do you live to work, or do you work to live'
first off, thanks to all for your candid and honest remarks. it wasnt' my intention to come off as someone with their nose in the air or as a knowitall. far from it, i'm a humble kid who's got a thirst for knowledge and informatoin. i'm learning all the time. second, i understand some of the comments about production v. quality and how you need to balance those two to be successful. its certainly a valid point. however, how am i suppose to be able to do stain-grade cherry trim when i've been caulking my primed pine colonial miters. the way i look at paint grade is as practice for higher end ####. but that's me. third, i kinda take offense at some of you old-timers who write me off b/c of my age. i certainly have alot to learn. no question. but this isn't rocket science. i apologize to those who are middle-aged and miserable but don't take it out on a young tradesperson.finally, i was encouraged to ask for a raise by my lead. he commends my work and says that "at the end of the day, we're all in this for ourselves and that if you don't ask for what you deserve, they ain't gonna give it to you."thanks again.
Sounds like you had your mind made up long before you got here then.....
third, i kinda take offense at some of you old-timers who write me off b/c of my age. i certainly have alot to learn. no question. but this isn't rocket science. i apologize to those who are middle-aged and miserable but don't take it out on a young tradesperson
You do have a lot to learn. Best of luck getting your raise.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 1/9/2005 1:27 pm ET by calvin
> third, i kinda take offense at some of you old-timers who write me
> off b/c of my age. i certainly have alot to learn. no question. but
> this isn't rocket science. i apologize to those who are middle-aged
> and miserable but don't take it out on a young tradesperson.What do you think rocket science is? W von B had to crash a whole bunch of rockets before he could make one fly. You're not really worth your salt until you've made a few mistakes and had to work your way out of them. Life's about handling the curves thrown at you. Just because you can hit homers with slow straight balls doesn't make you major league material.(And, BTW, anyone who thinks he's enough of a detail man to do stain grade trim should be enough of a detail man to use the shift key and proper punctuation.)
You sound a lot like me when I came out of school. I also did some mill and finish work to get me through school and then went into a totally different career. (Although I am looking to come back). The real way to make extra money when you are just starting is to make the company realize that they need you. Or at least that you are an asset that they would like to keep around. Capacity is king. If you can crank out more work in less time, then you are making the company money. The more money that you make them, the more that they will want to keep you around, the more they should pay you.
I have worked my way up into a project manager's position and although I don't have the life and death call on who makes what, I can steer the uppers in either direction. The people I give the thumbs up to are the ones to take a load off of me. The ones that will stick their neck out and try something that they have never done before. In my industry we almost always re-evaluate after 3 months because we have 6 months to give them the boot for any reason. About now you should talk to your uppers and discuss your performance. DO NOT mention what other people you work with make! That will lead two one of two things. You will getting fired, or your co-workers getting yelled at for blabbing. Either way, you will be unhappy. You can mention that you would like some tips and or direction because you are interested in making more and becoming a more valuable asset to the company, but make sure those two are always mentioned together. You making more takes money out of their pocket, you improving to demand a higher billing rate makes them more...
Finally, as was mentioned above, loose the anger. If you stay angry you will end up like my buddy Mike. He does carpentry and has managed to loose just about every job that he has ever had. Now he is forced to work for himself before he had a name or all of the required tools...
" i apologize to those who are middle-aged and miserable but don't take it out on a young tradesperson."
Who's the one that's miserable?
some of you old-timers who write me off b/c of my age
That's grain-of-salt time.
More than a few of "us" old folk had to "come up" to get anywhere. This can involve a lot of shut-up-and-do-it work in a person's life.
Learning when not to argue (particularly when you are right--but still wrong) is not something easily done. It can come particularly hard to the young, and/or the inexperienced. That can form a pattern. Live long enough, and some patterns emerge. Like any other pattern, they never match exactly--that's an even harder lesson to learn.
Turn the tables around, though, if only for the mental exercises. What would you think of a 17 or 18 year old laborer who thought that he was 'most as good as you were. Been on the crew only a few weeks and wanted 70-80% of your wages. "He's just a kid" is very easy to think, and to say.
Perspective is hell, it really is. Say you started at 17, you are now 22--that's five years experience. That's a quarter of your life--no small investment. I'm close to 25 years in this Biz, up down and sideways. That's five times as long as you have--more than your entire life. That's the grain of salt to consider.
Trust me, I'm not always right because I'm old. I'm not right for BTDT, wore out more t-shirts than I can recall. But I am here, and others aren't; and that's not entirely by accident.
It also depends on what you really mean to say. If you are saying you are as good as the guy making 24 to your 18--I'm, as an employer, going to be from Missouri: Show Me.
That $6 bump is a bit more than $14,000 out of my pocket at the end of the year (after taxes whatnot). That's almost an entire helper on the job. That's tough sledding if this is only day 90 or so you've been "on."
If you're saying you're worth another $2-3 per hour, that's a different argument (and also not only why companies should have written employment policies, but also use them--another thread altogether).
You say your lead thinks you are worth it--sounds like maybe you are. Might not be a bad idea to buy the lead lunch and ask if/how he went through the boss to get any raises he has. A sad truth out there in construction, is that there are employers who won't give raises; that your only pay raise is made with your feet.
Sometimes you have to go where the money is. The trick of that, is not doing it too often. I've tried to paddle that sinking canoe a time or two.
So watch the geezer v. whippersnapper comments (either way)--there'll be older and younger than you your whole life. The hard part is the continuing to learn part, and there's few enough of those who do.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Mike, if you'd like to have a better understanding about other's motivations, you might try reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684852861/qid=1105294736/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-6009719-6328759
It called "First, Break All the Rules: What the World's Greatest Managers Do Differently" by Marcus Buckingham, Curt Coffman
In it, you'll find out that there are many different types of people and it's a huge de-motivating factor to attempt to steer them down a different path than what they aspire for.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Thanks Blue, that book has been on my to-buy list for a while now. I used to get screaming mad at my first helper, eventually we parted ways. Later I learned about Myers-Briggs stuff and realized his whole approach to life was just very different than mine. Eye-opening, to this bookish nerd, how different people can be.
It's called a type B personality. It's what smart businessmen look for. A guy that will do a good job and not muck up the system. It's win win. And as far as the wages go. Do the math the way he explains it. It's the same reason I never went union here. You make top dollar but your layed off alot. Then you've got to travel to work. You have to pay your own expenses. Room, board etc. then your working for about half of what I'm making when all that is factored in.Who Dares Wins.
Brownbagg here in Boston thats actually a mid level wage. Top carps make 25-30 (in greater Boston) outside the 495 belt it drops a bit. Housing around here is insane, you cant touch a single family detached for less than half a mill. And over a mill for a nice place is common. Heck you would be hard pressed to find a studio condo for under 250k unless it was at the airport.
Just read this in the Boston Sunday Globe January 2. "An annual study of national housing affordabillity ...ranked the bay state second only to California in terms of the hourly wage a worker here(Massachusets) needs to earn to pay rent and utilities without spending more than 30% of their income. This translates to $20.93 hr to pay for a fair market two bedroom appartment". Yikes!!! No wonder he wants a raise.
who the heck can afford a 2 bedroom appt.?
Might find one in Roxbury.
You think thats bad, try Buying a two bedroom condo.
Make sure you get along well with all customers and present a professional and friendly image. That's part of job skills, too.
3 months ....
12 weeks ...
you can't possibly know yet what the other guys can do ....
U haven't been around them long enough.
That said ... you gotta do the time before you get the bucks ...
I'd suggest being the best employee they ever saw and in 3 more months ask for a meeting .... ask for a buck or two then ... and set a goal for the both of U in 6 more months ... after your first full year.
Maybe the other guys "caulks" when speed is of the essence ....
I have a buddy that "never caulks" .... I do better work faster then he does ...
as he'll mess around with some stupid unseen detail forever ... then get behind ... then have to rush the feature pieces ....
I have him sub for me from time to time ... but I have to set time limits ...
I'm not paying $1,000 for someone to not have to caulk the inside corners of paint grade closet trim, ya know?
he'll fight the urge to caulk inside that closet .... then make up excuses when he drives a visable screw while hanging cabs ..... he thinks he's worth top dollar ...
but I don't.
Time is money .... gotta be a balance.
U haven't been around those guys to know if they balance or not.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I'd like to emphasize what Jeff Buck said - an employee's value is in doing work that is appropriate to the job at hand. I would get rid of somebody who was wasting time making airtight joints in invisible corners. But a good trim carpenter has to be able to make those airtight joints sometimes and has to be able to judge when to put the time into it so as to give the company the best value for its money.
If you're making money for the boss, he'll have it to share with you. If you're costing money, no matter how good your work is you won't be around long anyway.
Ron
Maybe the other guys "caulks" when speed is of the essence
I had to read that twice, it subtlely changed meaning right at the end the first time. "Caulking off" is an old naval expression meaning to go nap or not work by being "out of sight and out of mind" (or engaged in useless work, like caulking the bilges).
It was making perfect sense until I read "paint grade trim," which then caused a mental double-clutch (tough on a Monday, too <g>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
do the job because you really like the job, not because you'll make money someday.
do the job because you want to work for yourself someday, and you're learning a lot right now.
do the job because people are depending on you to be a steady man who knocks down steady checks.
there are a ton of reasons to do a good job, even when you don't feel like you're being paid fairly. the majority of working folks feel like their getting shafted, and rightly so.
welcome to the real world, son.
Edited 1/9/2005 1:02 am ET by WEGEMER
excellent words
granted in every field we will always find a born pro
but otherwise
whats that song Ray Charles sings
"Hit the road jack, and dont come back no more no moe no moe no moe
hit the road jack and dontcha come back no moe"
Now I am no pro at anything, and always learning. my lead guy has been with me 4 yeears. If I had a collage age kid telling me he was a finihs carpenter after working a few summers and wanted as much money as everyone else
can still hear that song
"whats that you say, hit the road jack and dontcha come back no moe"
Sorry, thebozer....normally, I'm all for demanding higher wages..but your haven't offered enough information to warrant a raise.
Your resume includes working partime in the trade for a couple of years. You don't mention anything about formal training, books, carpentry classes, full tool boxes, exceptional and well rounded skills.
You don't even know what the "going rate" is for trim carpenters.
Your comparing yourself to a guy that can do stairs...and you don't really know how to do them.
If I were you, I'd keep my mouth shut, learn as much as I can from the guys that are faster than you, then prove to your boss why your efforts are making him so much money that you deserve a raise.
You haven't demonstrated that you know how to balance quantity and quality.
There's nothing wrong with being ambitous and wanting more...but I'd be careful about letting on that your unhappy....your the last man on the totem pole, don't even have a half a year full time in and already whining.
Something doesn't sound right...
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
it's been going on three years since I last spoke to you, you sobwhaaassssuppp!!?am so glad to see that you and Gabe have kissed and made up, too.last I heard, you were retiring to Florida, to speculate real estate or something.?Nathan
Nathan....don't mention Florida to me...it's killing me that I'm not there...and probably won't be going anytime soon.
I basically am following my grandchildren (two boys). Their mom and pop finally made the move to Florida and before they unpacked the moving van had to flee two hurricanes over the course of a month or so. My panic stricken daughter dedided that they will NOT be living in hurricane country. They're actually in Phoenix right now for the week exploring the area and probably will end up there or in Las Vegas..or something similar.
I was so pumped to move to FL, especially after the hurricanes hit. The real estate market there is ideal for investment opportunities and I had visions of lots of beach time dancing in my head...
I'm stuck here in Michigan until I sell off a couple of pieces of property that I have...interested in some lakefront property....maybe a condo.....
As far as Gabe and I making up....Gabe is Gabe and I admit, I'll never be as good as he is...but hey..I'm trying. I am glad that he has finally gotten over his anger at me and now actually likes me.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue,Interesting conundrum with the topic here. I was doin' some thinking about employer/ee relationships due to a personal situation. Sort of came to a conclusion that the journey level carpenter could be compared to an able-bodied seaman, in the sense that the tasks the competent deckhand should be able to accomplish without supervision, would have their corallary in a journeyman's skill bag. The seaman doesn't need supervision and works as a very important part of a team, focusing his vision on how his work is affecting the smooth setting and retrieval of the gear. He or she makes minor adjustments in order to gain a few seconds of time. Their hands move quickly and surely, while giving the work a very focused and serious touch. The hands works at a pace that is perfect for the moments work and are able to hit overdrive when #### hits the fan. Knows where every tool she needs is, and can access it in moments. Carps should be able to work the same way, right? If a fellow is learning quickly and efficiently how to do trim, you'd think he'd be able to realise that if he couldn't frame the set of stairs that his boss just asked him to trim out, he'd be out of a damn job!Damn, it's late and I wanted to chat a bit. Looks like I went and done it, no ketchup this time...NDamn good to talk to you again, bro
Talk to your boss , ask him if you have been doing a good job . Ask him if he could get you more money . If you don,t get it , swallow your pride and get back to work . You will have his respect if you stick it out . If you have'nt noticed its January , I know you have'nt been doing this to long but , work slows down this time of year . You leave now you might be cutting your own throught . Ask again in the spring when things get busy . The boss will remember you stuck it out .
Mike - Foxboro , Mass.
1) first off----congratulations. It sounds like you have exactly the kind of job I wanted 20 years ago and couldn't find.
also $18/hour steady sounds like EXCELLENT money for a young guy to be paid while he learns his trade.---In fact if I didn't have tuition to pay for my 2 kids............LOL
2) Hard thing to accept-----but employees are RARELY paid for what they CAN do.
In general employees are paid for what they ACTUALLY do. As already noted by others----that $24/hour guy most likely ACTUALLY makes his employer more money on a consistent basis than you do----that is what he is paid to do.
3) Part of being a professional is turning out a certain level of work consistently---day after day after day. I am sure their are DIY'ers here who pull themselves together and can produce excellent results with unlimmited time to invest on their own houses. Professionals have to do it in 1/10th the time in a different location every few days. Is it possible that the "quality" of your work equals the $24/hour guy----but your consistent pace is lacking?
4)What does OTHERS pay have to do with yours? The 2 are not at all related.
Would you be happier with your $18 if the other guy was making $15 ?????
What you WANT and what you NEED are 2 different things
Once again congratulations and best wishes
Stephen
Reality check... You've gotten some good advice so far. Nonetheless, if I were you, I'd be happy to be working steadily for the rate you're getting. I've been in the trades long enough to work for peanuts when that's all there was to make and good money when it was available. Right now is a peanut time for me which I'm diligently working to change.
But it won't happen quickly nor without an inordinate amount of effort on my part to change. No offense intended but you're just too young to have a real idea of what this racket is all about yet. My own attitude is, 'the more I know, the more I know I don't know'. It keeps me always learning and seeking out better, quicker techniques to do this work that I love.
I'm 46 and started this last job as a lumber humper just to get the stupid job because I'm in a part of the country where they redefine the word miserly. I'm the right hand man now and still not making nearly what you're making... You don't think this doesn't have a wearing effect on my own thinking? The boss knows I'll be leaving him in the next few months because he knows he doesn't pay squat and I have what it takes to run my own show.
Does that make my situation in the here and now worth complaining about? Not really... It's merely a stepping stone to where I'll be later. My advice would be to quit thinking about the other guys and spend that energy on improving yourself and learning as much as you can where you are. Quite frankly, I'd be happy to be making what you are at your age. Look back on this in ten years and try not to cringe too much.
In all honesty I would consider giving anyone a raise for 6 months. Due to the fact I think it takes that long to see if the newness of the job will where off and you will suddenly start being late, leaving early, taking long lunches etc.
And as Jeff Buck said you couldn't possibly know everything the others know as you haven't been on enough different types of jobs yet. Being a carpenter is a little more than what you will see in 10 or 12 houses.
But hey, don't like it and can't get the raise you deserve you can always hang with jj at Home Depot or Lowes and ask for work. No work? Pan handle a little to help pay the bills. Things a little slow, maybe a bottle of wine (keep the bag on for cover) and hang with a few of the mexican dudes. DanT
I tend to agree that this particular guy needs to be ready to wait it out, but it couldn't hurt to bring up the subject for review with his boss, best to go up thru the lead carp first to have his recommendation behind the idea.I have one guy who hired on at 15 two years ago and I doubt he will ever make more than that. Got another guy who was willing to start at ten. I asked him if he thought he could afford to have a wife and kid on that kind of money and started him at 12. He is up to fourteen already in three months and i'm glad to pay it. I almost never had any job in my life that I didn't get a raise withing a few weeks. Most would rather start low and move the wages up after seeing what they can do, so it might be appropriate for him to bring it up, tactfully and without the anger thing. That is an automatic loser.There are always lots of good reasons for differing pay rates that individuals don't need to know. Making that info public can be bad for morale. Asking your fellow worker and comparing your wages or performnance to his will not help you attitude.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ok , last nights responce maybe not the best
but now that I have a few cups of coffee and church is over,
I apologize for my snap answer
I dont know what the going rate is or what the standard of living is in your area
I dont know what your true costs are, family, kids, food etc
Dont know what your non real costs are, new 30k truck, new 500k home, dinner out every night and not at mickey dees
when you finised school what was your degree in, are you expecting to make that kind of money because you have a degree in ................
my son is coming out of 4 years, and has already been offered work making more a year then I ever have. Could he make that pounding nails, no way.
one of th ekids at church is just finihing med school, yet pounds nails for me during breaks and summers, and Im not paying him 350k a year
so what does full time at walmart in your area make, at mickey dees, at the lumberyard as a stocker, and your obviously not union, niether are we
granted a good finish man is invaluable, and I pay the sub I use now well.
But there is a whole lot more to running baseboard
or paint grade with caulking
If you are making 18 an hour now, wiht no real proven time, your doing good. If you are given the chance to work with a couple of lifers in the trade to learn their skills, thats great
In my area , 18 an hour plus taxes, workers comp, social securty, would be running me $27.5 an hour. do you have any bennies or vacation on top of that ???
As a boss I woul dnot be happy with someone demanding more money, if you come in demanding , my probabl answer is " hit the road jack". but more PC then that. Shucks Im no pro, Ive had to come to this forum to ask for the best way to tell some one "see ya later". I dont like to do it. Ive had some work for me that lasted a day ( not by thier choice) and it was no problem to say see ya, sometime I waited for a lull in work to have an excuse.
But I woul ddefinately look at all the advice given in others answers.
Be punctual, polite, clean, eager to learn without being a brown nose, ask for a meeting to ask if you are meeting or exceeding expectations.
this is the type of person I give raises to , before they ask.
good luck
no benefits. degree in construction management. could've taken a job as a jr. project engineer for a commercial builder but my passion is homebuilding. i want my own business, etc.,etc.
Hmmmm...now you want your boss to give you a raise, while he trains you to be his competition?
Do you think that your long term goals fit in well with your current employer? Have you and him discussed your long term goals in your pre-employment interview?
Just a few questions...
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
not competition. i'll be in the high-end market. and i'm still a long way away from opening my own business.
How many tools do you own versus the other guys? There are too many people in the trades that think after a couple of years,"this ain't my first load of pumpkins", but in actuality, they are still learning how to load the truck. I takes time to be a good tradesman, and the pay will come as experience and skills increase.
For the person who can hang 4 doors a day perfectly, it probably cost his boss $75 per door to make $35. Not good economics.
I was not on that attack so much as identifying the personality although type B is not my favorite. And I did say I was glad he is happy and meant that.
I agree with Gunner. Having hired and managed groups ranging in size from 7 to 20 I am familiar and agree that you build an operation on a steady personality. DanT
anyone bidding $35/door is not going for the kind of jobs where perfect door hanging is expected
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
First (and this is VERY important), were you happy with your pay before you found out how much the others were making?
Second, why do people on/in the same job/company talk about their pay? ( a great reason on why not to)
Third, its only been 3 months. Jeez.
You recieved lots of great information from the others on here. One of the best was lose the pizzy attitude. That right there will be a big start.
Good luck young Jedi
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"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
There has been a trickle of good observations here regarding your situation. Know that many young, talented carps such as yourself have chimed in here on this site with exactly the same frustrations as yours. Please allow me to share a few more thoughts regarding the topic...
First, as a foreman or lead carpenter, making whatever that top salary may be in my geographic area, one of the most difficult things for the carpenters under me to grasp is the point that I don't have to be better than they are in every single aspect of what we're doing. Really, it's true. There may be better stair builders, more talented trim guys, more productive wall framers and on and on. The important thing is that as lead, I am charged with being able to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together, and apply the talent as if they were tools, or parts of an engine. I need to be able to listen to my engine run during the day, and hear a misfire or ping and immediately know what's up. This is only accomplished by a "piston", as it were, for some years. Your lead carpenter may be only a little more productive than you when it comes to coping crown, but I can almost guarantee you that his mind not only occupied with his work, but yours as well as the painters, perhaps the electrician, hvac, the glazers and landscapers. He is considering a much bigger picture than you, and has a very good understanding of how everything is either in or out of symbiosis....know what I mean?
So, perhaps no more lecturing from me. I've been there too, and still find myself struggling with the fairness of pay issues. What I've decided to do very recently is propose to my boss how he may be able to more effectively utilize my bottomless and vast talents...:)
If he doesn't want to do this, it's his business, not mine. I can either stay or leave, but I don't have the right to be sour. If I'm not happy with the pay, I can get another job, perhaps, or if I value the environment, I can work my #### off to find a way to be more productive and valuable to him. It's not his responsibility to coax production out of me, or to dig into my personality to find out how he can make me happy. That's my chore. If I'm not satisfied, I need to be proactive to give him possibilities...and then let him make the call. In the meantime, I need to remember that there are others on the crew who are experiencing the same things, have the same struggles, and try to lead by example. For the first seven years or so, this meant that I kept my mouth shut, tried to associate myself with top-flight operations, set my goals to be better than the best around me without making it a personal thing.
I worked as a framer for six years before I tackled my first set of stairs. When the chance came, it was on a large condo project, and I had four sets of stairs that came out of a two story parking garage, went up five stories and ended on the roof. There were twenty framers on the job, and I was responsible for making sure that they had stairs available and waiting for them to access wall plates when they were ready to joist a floor. I came into the project when they were on the second floor of frame, and had to chase them from the garage all the way to the roof. I was working by the piece. What does all this mean?... I guess it's that you don't have to be actually doing something to learn how to do it. Keep you eyes open, learn, and the skills your gaining now will allow you to be a complete carpenter in a couple of years.
I remember having a couple of years experience, showing up on a job and selling myself as someone who could do anything except stairs. Looking back on it now, there was so, so much more that I didn't even know that I didn't know. This job is deep, and will call upon you to dig deep into yourself to master it, no matter what you may think of your potential...so don't judge yourself based on comparison to others in your now very limited frame of reference.
Last, good luck, keep your digits on your hands, and enjoy the little things as you go. A sweetly driven nail can sometimes get you through a dreary day...
Nathan
Excellent post Nathan.
Your comments about the lead are right on target.
I'll add this to whomever wants a raise...beware of what you ask for. I just cleaned house this year and when I was looking for heads to chop, I looked first at the most expensive help. In every case, I judged them not on how much they earned, but on how much they earned vs what they produced. When I focused my attention to those earning less, I judged them more on their potential, not on what they are doing.
The moral: if you're earning the big bucks, you better be producing the big bucks...with no help from me. Don't expect to earn a journeyman's wages, then ask me to explain things or show you shortcuts...if you take the money, you better already know all those things.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Can I have a raise?
-zen
Can I have a raise?
Ummmm...no!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
good points ...
higher reward = higher risk ....
coupla years ago ... I was working as an employee .... figured I'd been there long enough .... we'd talked about raises when I applied .... they had me doing lead work at the top of the carp scale ...
so one week I decide I'm going in with my demands ... told my wife Fri morn ... if they say no ... I'm prepared to walk ... can't do lead work for carp pay no more ...
Fri around 10am one owner calls to say they need me in the office that afternoon ...
Good, I say ... I was gonna call and see who'd be around anyways ...
Went in ... sat down ... "We're sorry, but we're reconfiguring the business and laying off all the carps and half of the leads" ....
First words out of my mouth ... "So I guess I'm not getting that raise I was going to demand? ..."
Shoulda seen the look on his face!
Back to your point ... what do ya think woulda been the outcome if I made my demands anytime that month leading up till that Fri?
Gotta be ready to walk .... if it's a demand as opposed to a request.
and I don't see any reason to "request" ... either you want it or you don't.
requesting a "time line" ... that's something else .... more like negotiating ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Those are great points regarding pay scale and responsibilites Blue. This is turning into a pretty good thread.
if you're earning the big bucks, you better be producing the big bucks...with no help from me. Don't expect to earn a journeyman's wages, then ask me to explain things or show you shortcuts...if you take the money, you better already know all those things.
Right on the money, words to live by.
regards
I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. There are some real gems and affirmations here that has helped even this sometimes curmudgon. Take all the advice in good stride and then get back to work.
Be patient ! I doubt if the man being paid $6hr. more than you is younger than 35. He is being paid for his experience, problem solving ability,anticipation,quality & production. Quality is but one component of the puzzle. Your time will come. If I may be frank, quit whining, close your mouth & open your eyes- your education is in front of you everyday!
so what do ya think?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I think we should have a national flat rate income tax.
I think I should be able to double my rates.
I think Florida would be better weather this time of year rather than where we are.
I think my new key board is great.
I think I should be allowed to be a Steelers fan too.
I think the Raiders should hire a different head coach.
I think it is odd that both my mother-in-laws didn't like me.
I think it is good to be in business.
I think gunner is a scary nick name.
I think piffin is a name I don't understand.
I think I have had enough typing and will end this.
Oh, just noticed you weren't writing me................er um........sorry. DanT
That's Ok Dan ...
U were next on the list !
ok ... who's after Dan ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Well thank god. I was worried that I messed up the rotation. DanT
I'm not sure where you live, but as a midwesterner spending his first winter in Florida, be careful what you think about. I'd give anything right now to wear my padded Carhartt pants and a quilted flannel. It was 75 today, as it has been for the last two weeks...gorgeous weather. But I'd love to smell that cool, crisp winter air. That's what I think.
I spent a week over Christmas in Florida. Mid 70's and sunny. It is raining here and 39. I would move in the morning. DanT
I agree with your sentiment ...
born and raised in Pittsburgh PA .... love all 4 seasons ...
sometimes ya gotta have the snot froze to your face to really appreciate the summer days of 96 deg and 99% humidity!
I spent 2 years in Houston TX ... went down there right before my birthday ....
we went out for a BDay dinner ... Dec 21st .... and I was wearing shorts ...
and still dripping sweat. Sorely disappointed ... give me a cold December anytime ...
heard tomorrow's weather for here in Pgh ... a high of 66!
Not liking that either ... I need a frozen tundra to kill everything I'm allergic to.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
It was 75 today, as it has been for the last two weeks...gorgeous weather. But I'd love to smell that cool, crisp winter air. That's what I think.
Well... the "cool, crisp winter air" here today (in this midwest town) is gonna be 50.
Not that I like super cold weather... BUT it makes you appreciate spring. The way this winter is going, it is like one long fall.
But that's ok, the natural gas folks are increasing their rates to make up for decreased demand.
jt8
Edited 1/12/2005 10:20 am ET by JohnT8
I think, Jeff, you were right on when you told Bozer to talk about time lines instead of instant raises.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!