i would like to know from everyones experience wich is the more cost effective. i am building a garage 32 x 40 with 10′ high ceilings. about 60% of the foundation will be in the ground with the exception of the front wall with the garage doors. I cannot lay block effeciently enough to do it myself so i would hire out a mason to lay the 12″ blocks.
If i used cmu i would have about 1800 or so and would need to core fill them. So by the time i buy the blocks hire a contrator to lay them plus lintels, parging the outside wall with mortar, sheet foam insulation on the outside rebar ect am i ahead with the cheaper price of block.
I am putting attic trusses ontop of my foundation and living in this space while i am building my house. My house will take me a few years to build. I will be heating my garage with a wood burner. So i am trying to figure out wich is cheaper really in the construction price if i constructed icfs and poured it myself vs paying a mason to lay the block and i do the backfilling and parging ect. myself?
Are icfs a benefit undergrade really? What is the best / economical icf on the market brand name?
Replies
I used Polysteel ICF for my own home. Cousin and I laid up all the blocks and had a couple guys help with the pour. Easiest part of the entire project by far. At this point I am really wondering why I didn't continue on up.
Exterior finish and transition above/below grade is a PITA with the ICFs. Stainless screws are too soft to drill into the steel webs. Interior finish is awesome! I cut in wires with an old soldering iron and finished in less than half of the 2x6 main structure.
Not sure on costs for the mason and other things but from a DIY perspective it is relatively easy to get a good structure.
Good Luck!
When you run the numbers, I think you will find the ICFs more expensive, but worth while doing that way
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I too used ICF's in my foundation and wished I had used them all the way up to the roof!
They sure go together easy and once in place they are extremely durable and sound.. I don't know where you are but they have up to a 200mph wind rating and a 4 hour fire rating and fantasic siesmic durability.. Oh and quiet too!
Not to mention their thermal efficency..
If I may don't look for the cheapest ICF's. The money you save won't be worth it if you make a mistake. Good ICF's also come with great support and that is like hiring a contractor to double check your work just before the pour..
In addition you'll want to use whatever scaffold system they have because that's how you'll wind up filling the forms as well as brace them.
Check your local redi mix cement plants for sources, prices, and what sort of support they give..
As for your final question ICF's can be wonderful in a basement.. Mine is warm and dry and the complete opposite of normal damp chilly basements.. Plus the ease of putting up sheet roock has to be seen to be believed..
ICF is always going to be more. Especially if you go beyond the foundation level. Design considerations have to be made for plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc... I haven't worked on a single ICF project that the subs weren't constantly complaining about. It's something you build your last houe out of, not your first.
Why would they complain?
I mean it's a whole lot easier to cut into foam than to cut into wood..
Granted some people have no ability to adapt and need formal training to cut into foam.
You are aware that you install things before the pour and not afterwards aren't you?
As for your final statement,, You are absolutely correct.. an ICF home is the last home you build..
But I built my first (and only home) with ICF's and it was really simple.. Well that's not the whole truth..
My sister in law finished my first section.. I think I had a level and a part of a second one done. and wound up in bed for a month
My sister-in-law with absolutely no previous construction experiance came out and finished it for me.. So I could beat the first freeze.. She got a 20 minute drug slurred instruction from me and started after I dozed off.. The next day the cement company came out and prechecked her work and signed off so we could pour.
I say we I mean the kid I hired from the grocery store and my 2 daughters (age 10 and 16) I hobbled around on crutches..
I never said ICF's don't have advantages. What I said was that all the subs we had on the jobs complained constantly about having to hang siding / drywall / trim on it , especially when a screw was overspun, or a piece of trim didn't land on a furring strip for whatever reason. Cutting through the foam is easy enough, but think of all the nasty, noxious fumes you might be releasing into you new house. Also, try fishing wires through it after the fact without removing drywall... not to be cute, but what you end up with after the pour is set in stone. Forming is easy as assembling legos, which is I'm sure why you had the ability to hire it out to kids / inexperienced relatives. My point was that it can complicate the procedures for installation of various systems, thereby increasing the costs associated with each system and making the enevitable changes that take place with any type of construction project that much tougher to work around. You also have to consider the extra dead-loads imposed on full-height wall construction with concrete, and scale your footings and foundations accordingly, again adding to the costs over conventional light framing methods.
Would I use them to build my own house? Maybe. I like the idea of air-tight, super energy-efficient construction because it makes long-term financial sense, but it's not necessarily the healthiest thing in the world for you. Air-tight construction presents a host of other issues, including air quality problems, moisture retention problems, and mold/mildew if leaks occur.
Just my 2cents.
BW
I think you are complicating this matter - the OP is building a garage that will be temporary living space. I am sorry that I made the aside comment about continuing on up with ICF over conventional framing - I'm not 100% sure that is the way to go but it is tempting.I think that the costs associated with ICF over CMU are easily justified by labor savings and comfort of the finished product when compared to CMU + insulation + finished living space.The comparison between stick and ICF is quite a bit more complicated. I noticed this when trying to install base moulding in my basement - no plate to nail to and the Polysteel web is shy of the bottom of the form by about 2". Gonna try some Loctite glue - would be fun to traditionally trim out an entire home this way. Or you can always hit concrete and use Redheads ;)Windows are also fun...not really all that different than block though.
Oh I solved that problem.. I got some "thins" from my lumberyard.. (please ask)
and screwed a 8 inch wide strip along the bottom or anyplace else I wanted to nail into.. using trim head screws to minimise the chance of hitting a sheetrock screw with the nailer..
If you don't have access to thins you could use strips of 1/2 inch plywood for a solid nailing surface.. just start your sheetrock up a little bit.
As for windows didn't you use wooden bucks with yours? I nail into the wooden bucks for all my trim
Finally costs.. they go together so easily that it's an easy DIY project which saved so much over other foundation choices that they lowered my whole project costs
what kind of wire did you use in the concrete again?
Well cutting into the foam could be a nasty smelly stinky oder emitting process or it could produce about the same mess as dry wall cutting does.. it kind of depends on if you are melting (all of the above about nasty stinky....
or simply cutting it.. (my favorite tool is a sheet rock hole saw)
Frankly I can't imagine anyone designing HVAV into exterior walls but I'm sure some do it.. nor can I imagine anyone putting plumbing in exterior walls but I'm sure it happens..
Around here because we get such nasty cold weather it's never done no matter what sort of house it is.. stick framed, SIP's, or ICF's
Move that pipe too close to an outer wall and it will freeze!. 40 below respects nobody!
As for wiring,, I did my own and when there would be wiring what I did was figure out which chamber the wires had to go into and then simply drop the wire down them.. No fishing involved..
Well that's not true because I used a hole saw to cut a outlet for the box and used that to reach in and grab the wire.. I don't know what you mean by fishing but I can't grab a fish off my dock with my bare hands .. I suppose techically it's fishing so I'll give you that. I then feed the wire into the box left it a little long and tied it off to make sure the weight of the cement wouldn't pull it out..
I then sealed the box in with a can of great stuff and moved on..
As for difficulty hitting the screw points when you sheetrock.. they are every six inches not 16 inches so if some dolt strips out a spot and won't move up an inch he could move over 6 inches and still achieve the same thing..
I don't see how they could manage to strip out a spot though.. I mean if you don't have the clutch set right in my experiance the screw simply gets sucked through the sheetrock before it strips out and I never used polysteel which is supposed to be even stronger than the nylon embedded in my forms..
You are aware that there are markers on each form where the embedded strips are aren't you? On mine it's a tiny raised rib, it could also be a small groove, or a line painted etc..
Since the blocks interlock and when they do the embedded strips all line up once you've got the spot marked with say a pencil mark a blob of paint on the floor etc.. all you have to do is keep vertical above those blobs/marks/etc..
I mean every 6 inches? pretty easy to find! Lot easier than every 16 inches..
What kind of wire did you run in the concrete?
I agree with Frenchy.
Are you able to tell us the details of their complaints, other than having to learn something?
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"i would like to know from everyones experience wich is the more cost effective. i am building a garage 32 x 40 with 10' high ceilings"
Andy3882,
Curious if you have plans for the garage.
I'm hoping to build something similar this year and would like to see your layout if possible.
Scott
Edited 2/25/2009 10:09 am ET by wivell