Hello All- been absent for a bit, busy at work AND on my project-
Just wanted to let you know that the only major headache on my project so far has been related to the one thing I thought I’d spend the money and get the better and lower hassle product installed for me by the “pro’s”: icynene insulation.
I had the icynene installed in my addition and garage workshop in February, but during a particularly warm snap, so no problems with cold weather. The addition install went well: messy, but otherwise fine. The only problem there was damage from squirrels who took up residence in the local code-required vent space between the foam and my roof sheathing. Guess I should have waited until my soffits and fascia were up and tight before insulating, but I wanted a warmer place to work! Oh well, live and learn.
The garage/shop has been another issue entirely. No lost sleep over it yet, but it’s getting close to that!
The installers had equipment trouble during the garage install, and came back the next to finish the job. Guess I should have taken pictures so I could remember what they got done that first day, because it seems they must have sprayed too much resin in the mix during those “equipment problems”. The finished job looked fine, but still smelled a bit after ventilating the place for a week, whereas the addition was odour-free in a day or two in similar weather. The smell wasn’t particularly strong, and I was assured by the installer that they never had persistent odour problems- maybe it was just the cold weather making it take a bit longer to out-gas. So I went ahead and put up the VB, figuring that the residual odour would breathe out through my Typar and sheathing. Big mistake- it’s May now and the smell is still there!
I had the salesman/estimator back in a couple weeks back and he could definitely detect the smell- he said that it smelled (two months after installation) like it had been sprayed a day or so beforehand. Note that he’s smelling the foam through an intact vapour barrier with acoustic sealing and red tape at all joints etc.
The installer comes back and cuts out some 1′ square sections of foam from my walls and took them as samples, basically trying to get warranty coverage from Icynene. A few weeks later, they tell me that the foam is fine and they couldn’t detect any problems with it. No voids, no sign of breakdown and no excessive odour in the foam itself. Icynene apparently isn’t going to back them up with warranty- guess it’s the installer’s tough luck. So the installer’s only offer of compensation is an offer to do the small amount of remaining work on the house for free, including fixing the squirrel damage once I’ve got the soffits on.
The odour is definitely noticeable, and I expect to be spending a lot of time in that workshop- that shop was one of the big reasons I took on this addition project. So I want the foam guys to honour their warranty and either refund my money for the garage install or preferably tear it out and make it right.
Right now I’m thinking I made a mistake in selecting this product. Thank God they didn’t screw up in the house addition! My worry isn’t about the smell itself, which I could probably live with personally. What ticks me off is firstly the premium price I paid for a so-called low-VOC product which claims to be even suitable for use in the homes of people with chemical sensitivities. Secondly, it’s the fact that this odour might last for years now, and that might make it tough for me to sell the place should I ever need to. If I even considered this to be a risk, this product would have been off my list!
So what are my options for making this guy carry through on his warranty? And in what order should I carry them out? I’ve been professional and courteous in my dealings with him so far, gradually ratcheting up my disapproval with their seeming unwillingness to make this thing right for me but never losing my cool. I’ve offered to them the option of a full refund instead of what would clearly be more expensive for them- a tear out and re-do, including my VB. I’ve let them come in and take their samples, and I’ve let them delay my interior finishing of my workspace for a couple months in an effort to either have the smell blow away or have them resolve the issue for me. But now I’m wondering what’s next: a call to Icynene HQ? The Better Business Bureau? Small claims court? A lawyer?
Any thoughts? You guys have been a wealth of helpful advice on my project and I hope it continues! Gotta tell you though- Mike Smith’s densepacked cellulose is looking awfully attractive in hindsight!
Replies
My suggestion, call a lawyer and file suite to have all the affected material removed and re-install properly. I think the liability lies on the installer who should have insurance to cover performance issues. The installer's equipment failure should be picked up by an insurance claim. No Insurance! than the installer should will have to foot the cost of making it right. I wouldn't budge an inch on compromise. You got to get what you paid for. Besides, if the material is still not chemically stable that means the insulation "R" value may be out in left field somewhere.
Good Luck!
Virginbuild
Thanks for the reply and advice. The good news is, the foam itself isn't unstable. The chemistry of making this foam is irreversible since it eliminates CO2 in the process. The foam they sampled is perfectly uniform and not falling apart, and there aren't any big bubbles or voids inside the areas they sampled. Of course that says nothing about the areas they didn't sample!
The problem seems to be that they embedded smelly (but non-toxic) resin material within layers of the foam itself, trapping in the smell. It's a two part mixture and they must have sprayed way too much of the non-reactive component. The other component (the polyisocyanate, the toxic stuff) reacts with water so there's no way it can hang around longer than a few days. Unfortunately, the very low air movement within the foam plus the presence of the code-required vapour barrier will mean it will take a very long time for this smelly stuff to diffuse out of my walls. That pretty much ensures I'll have some odour for a very long time unless the foam is completely torn out and replaced.
I guess there's a problem with paying bills on time! I don't even have a hold-back to get this guy's attention- I've paid in full. Although this guy is an approved installer of Icynene, I doubt he has any coverage beyond what Icynene gives him, and they've told him it isn't their problem (i.e. it wasn't a problem with the chemicals they supplied to him, the problem was with his installers and his spray equipment).
I'm concerned about the cost and delay represented by getting a lawyer involved. Tying up my shop for months or years waiting for a court date isn't an option.
Generally, someone offering a warranty has first right of refusal to repair or replace their defective product, to minimize their cost and ensure that the new install meets the original specs (i.e. I can't choose to have it done with 2 lb closed cell foam now instead if I want him to pay for it). But how long do I have to wait after demanding the tear-out and re-do to have afforded them a "reasonable" time to fulfill their warranty? I have the strong feeling that if I go this route, I'll need to hire someone else to do the tear-out and re-do and then invoice the first guy, which puts me out for over DOUBLE the original cost- a cost which had me thinking long and hard about using this material in the first place!
What a bummer!
Like I figured The foam company wouldn't take responsibility and I agree it is the contractors equipment fault. I feel that the person applying the foam should have sensed something was wrong while he/she were applying the foam, right then and there it should have been scraped out on the spot. I still feel that one of the advertising claims of the product you have applied is the no odor or outgassing after the usual time allowed for setup of the product. The contractor must be licensed or should be. I can't imagine the contractor not having liability insurance, but than again it is possible there is none. I would confirm about the insurance coverage. The contractor may not tell you of this at this time because a claim might raise his insurance cost. Without hiring an attorney at this time you might seek some pressure to be applied to the contractor, to remediate your problem, through the Better Business Bureau, Chamber of Commerce, The foam company, and any local trade organization the contractor might belong to. Lets face it you are rightfully not satisfied with the current condition. You paid out probably 6 to 13 grand or more for the job, and you are losing sleep over this. For the few dollars that the contractor is out by correcting the job, at this stage, he should take care of this to have a happy customer and to develop trust in his business. He has a moral and probable legal obligation to correct this. Mr contractor WAKE UP! Take care of Mr. Moltenmetal.
Have you tried contacting Icynene?
Bill: if the contractor tells me he won't be honouring his warranty against defective workmanship, my very next call will be to Icynene headquarters. But I'm pretty sure he's been in contact with them and they've told him it's his problem, so I'm not expecting them to be able to do much for me.
Don't bother contacting the BBB...it is just local business's big brother. if you feel you need to contact someone I would start with the State Attorney general. They will be the only ones with any clout. Then let your contractor know you contacted them.
Don't bother contacting the BBB...it is just local business's big brother.
Right on brother!!!!
I thought I was the only one who see's the BBB is a protection racket for local business
BBB- Another "smoke and mirrors" story, where all is not as it appears. The people who run it have to get the support of business to have a job!!! They are not going to jeopardize their jobs by makng it easy to lodge a complaint and make it stick against a member- that would be job suicide!!!
There used to be an anti-BBB website with some very revealing stories. I may take the time to try and find it as I saw it about 5-6 years ago.
I'm not a big fan of the BBB after being subjected to their cold calling stories.For a company whose sole purpose is to support a foundation of trust and good ethics they seem to bend those principles a little when it benefits them.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Here's a quote from another site:
"Most consumer advocates consider the Better Business Bureau to be a scam. The various BBB branches are private businesses, who make their living via memberships from local businesses. Many consumer advocates believe that the BBB will always "resolve" complaints from member companies (i.e., will throw them away and not report them to you when you ask the BBB if a certain company has complaints against it), and that the BBB uses complaints against other companies to brow-beat those companies into joining the BBB. Given all these reservations, trusting the BBB is foolhardy. If they report complaints against a company that is certainly worthwhile data, but if they report no complaints against a company, well, the company still may be a bunch of scumbags."
MM:
I have another Icynene story from the Maritimes dealer/contractor. You may have read it on some other thread but.......The worse spray on job that I have seen in my 29 years in and around the energy retrofit industry was done by that dealer here in Halifax. Contact the company and tell them about the thread. With the readership that's here, they don't want these issues to go uncorrected/compensated for!!
Edited 5/5/2006 6:02 pm ET by experienced
MM - In a prior life, I handled a lot of construction litigation as a lawyer, before I "retired" to work on houses.
Keep in mind - you are going to need some more evidence depending on how you proceed. Get a paper trail started. Document what was done, in a business letter format sent to the contractor. Ask for a copy of the written results from the manufacturer. Ask for a copy of his liability insurance certificate. if he's licensed, he should have one. It may or may not have completed operations coverage which comes into play when the job is done.
If necessary, get an expert in there to confirm the source of the smell, it's existence and remediation steps. You might wind up with another contractor, or you may need somebody like a professional engineer. You need to know what the "damages" are. Note they could also include loss of use or potentially physical injury.
I would try the local dept of consumer affairs to see if they would be helpful. Some are, and many are not. But, as a government agency (unlike BBB) they could have some clout. State Attorney General is not likely to get too involved in a homeowner's dispute.
Read your contract to see if you are stuck with an arbitration provision, or if you can go to court.
Lawyers can be expensive and you typically don't get the legal fee back, even if you win. It's usually at least a a worthwhile investment to talk to somebody who knows the local court procedure. Oh yeah, good luck. ;-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don: thanks for the advice. I did start the paper trail- the minute the sales guy told me to talk to the general manager. Before they came to do their "samples", I sent them an e-mail laying out the sequence of events prior to that time as best I could recall. I'll be after them for the insurance certificate etc. I dug out his quote and re-read the terms, and there's nothing in there about limiting his liability or agreeing to arbitration or the like. I don't think this kind of thing happens to them often.
I'm still managing to keep my cool. I'm just ratcheting up the pressure on the guy until he realizes that I'm not going to go away without a re-do or my money back.
I doubt I'll go the lawyer route- small claims would cover the amount here. Though this installation has gone wrong through no fault of my own, I doubt I will get more out of him than what I paid him. A tear-out and re-do would represent a very significant cost to him, especially if I had to get another contractor to do it, and I can't carry the risk of being stuck paying for this twice.
It's tough to quantify the damages, since they depend on how long the smell lasts- and I can't wait around to find that out before seeking compensation for this. But assessing injury from the odour presumes that an installation with lingering odour is acceptable, which it isn't: this is a fundamental defect of workmanship that requires replacement.
I'm not claiming physical injury, just loss of use, nuisance and the risk of difficulty selling the place later due to the odour and people's fears of chemicals. Personally I have no fear of them: I've read the MSDS and understand the chemistry involved. It's the continued loss of use of my shop and the delay this represents to the rest of the project that is the most serious injury to me. If he offers me my money back in return for relieving him of future liability on the job, with something to compensate for loss of use of my shop these past 3 months, then I'll take it. Then I can install my rudimentary internal finishes and use the shop- I'll just put the plywood up with screws instead of nails! If the smell continues to irritate me, I can always tear out the foam later and replace it with cellulose etc. My cost, my risk. But what I won't accept is paying anything for an installation that I may have to rip out later and repalce at my own cost.
MM - You seem to have a faitrly good handle on the basics at least. Only thing I noticed in your last paragraph was a comment about wanting to be reimbursed for a risk of difficulty in a future sale. That one's going to be a little too much of a reach in most courts. (BTW - Small Claims in NY is 5K. If your covers it, great, but get your evidence together.)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
that settles it...i will never, ever use that stuff....polyuerthane is where it's at. Have had it sprayed a few times in reno's and smelled only a little bit...after vapour barrier and drywall couldn't smell sh1t. The installer looked like a mass murderer though so the stuff must be foolproof."I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I suspect that polyurethane would be subject to the same sorts of problems. Spray too much polyol compared with the amount of pre-reacted isocyanate and the same damned thing will happen. The only difference is that the polyurethane foam will be closed cell and less permeable to vapour, so the smell will occur at a lower level for a longer time.
Got an e-mail last night from my client with the bad attic spray-on job. A representative from head office will be at her home on Monday and could I be there?
Wouldn't miss it for all the tea in China!!!! Let you know how things go.
That's twice in 2 weeks that I've been asked to attend an event regarding insulation.
Edited 5/14/2006 10:01 am ET by experienced
Edited 5/14/2006 10:01 am ET by experienced
Yes- definitely let us know how it goes!
Thanks for the warnings about the BBB. Yep, sounds like those people are in an inherent conflict of interest!
No joy with the spray contractor yet. He's repaired the areas he "sampled", but otherwise he's basically stopped returning my phone calls in the hope that I'll just go away. He's got another thing coming...