I’m trying to work out some design ideas for my kitchen ceiling. I will be eliminating the illuminated ceiling (6-40w flourescent bulbs). I want to try and comply with the California requirement that the first switch (general lighting) be set up with flourescent lighting, but it is difficult. The local HD’s aren’t really aware of the requirement and do not stock the dedicated flourescent recessed light cans. I’m considereing doing what I think many others are doing – install standard cans, use flourescent medium base bulbs unless they are too annoying (I would switch to 120 v halogens). If I ever ended up in a situation where I had to comply, I would seek out the dedicated flourescent retrofit units.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a 4 or 5 inch dedicated flourescent recessed light and trim? The old illum ceiling was about 4’x6′. I was thinking of installing 4 – 5 inch cans or 6 – 4 inch cans in the area (old flourescent wattage was about 240 watts. I know that that would not be the equivalent of what I had, but I will also be installing LV halogen lights over the counters for task lighting.
A designer at Expo said that she saw the perfect flourescent recessed lighting at a kitchen, but she did not know what brand they were. Is there such a thing?
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I bought some recessed lights from laner.com. Good prices and good service. I don't know if they have what you need.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I am building a major kitchen addition in California - under Title 24 (which is the reg you are referencing that requires florescents). Look carefully at the wording and walk through some new model homes. You will see that there is a loop hole that allows you to use undercounter lighting as the primary kitchen lights as long as the first switch it tied to florescents.
Most homeowners was to dim their kitchen lighting, which can not be achieved with florescents.
And you wondered why every new kitchen had undercounter florescent lighting instead of halogen or ?...
Our local inspectors are fully aware of the code and this seems to the accepted practice even if it seems like cheating. I don't think Title 24 has any references to entry door, side door, back door etc R,UV, which means you can install single pane doors right next to your triple pane windows and r30 walls.
Dean
Dean is spot on. I too am finishing up a new-house-construction project in California with Title 24 spec's. I went the under cabinet flourescent route, and then put all my incandescent cans in the kitchen on two switches with dimmers.
This same spec is required in bathrooms too. In the masterbath I went with three flourescent recessed cans; not only were they quite expensive (and I modified some off-the-rack trim as the cans were available, but the trim didn't seem as easily accesssable--yeah for a Dremel tool), but they take a while to "fire" up. Something you don't want when entering a room. And as noted above, you can't put dimmers on the dang things. Hopefully, when I get finalled, I can easily take out the flourescent parts and rewire for standard incandescent, perhaps with flourescent bulbs. There could easily have been another route to this which I wish I would have taken i.e. putting in flourescent fixtures by the mirrors and swapping those out after the final. Flourescent recessed can fixtures suck.
Something you don't want when entering a room.
So, what you likely need is more cans (or a "lit" ceiling).
Say what? Rather like the other "work around" suggestion, you put in two recessed fluorescent cans, and, say, two aimable "other" cans. The fluorescents go on the first switch, the next is a dimmer for the other cans. The end users will choose which switch they use pretty quickly.
Ok, then, there's the old "lit" ceiling concept. This is where you use either a grid or a translucent panel for the ceiling and have the fixtures behind that. In a bathroom, this is easily done in a soffit or furr-down (or a furred-down soffit, based on your regional uses of the terms <g>). So, the main fixture (and first switched) now can become a single tube fluorescent fixture. This can be accented with some standard bases and lamps to suit. The users will work out which they prefer.
Using a "lit" soffit in the bathroom is actually very elegant. With the right panel or grille, the effect is very understated. Put some PAR-15 "halogen" incandescent lamps in as feature fills on a dimmer, and it can be right nice.
The whole business of the mandated fluorescents just rubs me wrong. Mostly because a dimmer is a much more practical way to reduce energy use in houses. The other "neat" thing about a dimmer is that it lets you have a "brighter than normal" setting for when it is needed, but lets you then choose a lower level for other times.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
There are dimmable CFLs from TCP. They can be retrofitted into existing incandescent cans. Even better, you can change the ballast from below, unlike for example with Halo CFL cans. Get them at http://www.efi.org; if you get the retrofit with the can, they'll send you a Juno can.
Weak point of CFLs in cans: the ballast gets hot, especially in air-tight. Earlier discussion in Breaktime mentioned a Marathon light that has a good story about not getting too hot when it's left on for a long time.
AFAIK dimming does not lessen power consumption.
Weak point of CFLs in cans: the ballast gets hot, especially in air-tight.
Customers just love when the IC cans blink off when the t/c hits it's protection temperature--that just has to be even more fun with CFL.
AFAIK dimming does not lessen power consumption
One of the first things I was taught--for incandescents, lower wattage is lower consumption. Dim a 60W bulb 50% and it only uses the current of a 35-36W bulb.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Since we're kind of on this subject i.e. getting around the Title 24 spec, has anyone swapped out a flourescent can to incandescent? My flourescent can's are between two floors, so unfortunately I can't get to the can from above. I'm guessing I need to get to the ballast (sp?), and bypass that with "regular" wiring? I will no doubt have to invest (these are cheap enough) in replacement cans to "gut" a few components to make this swap?
"AFAIK dimming does not lessen power consumption."
MODERN (last 30 years or so) electronic dimmers do reduce power consumptions. They turn of the power off the first part of each 120 hz half cycle. Then turn is back on at some delay point in the half cycle.
There is some power lost in the electronic switch (TRIAC) that produces some heat in the dimmer. But that is very minnor.
Reohstats did produce much more heat. At 50 light the same amount of power was wasted in the reohstat as in the bulb. But even then true reohstats where rarely used.
Adjustable transformers where what where usually used.
This same spec is required in bathrooms too.
That's the first I heard of that! I'll be doing remodeling/upgrades soon and can't imagine using fluoresant in the bathroom. (It's terrible light for applying makeup.) When you suggest putting a fluoresant over the sinks and then switching them out are you referring to the entire fixture? What lights have you seen that work well for a good swap?
"That's the first I heard of that! I'll be doing remodeling/upgrades soon and can't imagine using fluoresant in the bathroom. (It's terrible light for applying makeup.) "
What bulbs have you tried?
Try something like Chroma 50" used in graphics industry and plasces where color is critical. It is a daylight bulb.
Or an SPX (30-35) for incandensent match.
And these fit in regular fixtures or sockets? Do I need to find these at art stores or lighting stores?
The SPX and Chroma 50's are most commonly available in "linear" T12 bulbs (standard 4 and 8 ft).
They used to be hard to find, but I got some Chroma 50's at Wally World last year. They where packaged as SUN 50's, but the actual bulb was marked Chroma 50's.
The SPX have several different names. Designer is most one name. But you can always look at the part number. Aslo look at the shelf label. They are starting to give more details.
You want a CRI of 80 or better. That indicates how well the bulb is equal to an ideal light source, 100 is perfect. The other is the color temp. 5000K represents sun light and 2800K incandencent.
For the screw in bulbs, CFL, all of them I have run across has had a CRI of 80+. You don't have as much choice of color temps and they are often not indicated on the store shelf or package marking.
But http://www.efi.org shows many styles of CFL and gives the full specs.
Bill - you are the light man! Great info! TX
BuilderGal, it's a California spec. Are you in California? If you are, you better ask around; if you're not pulling a permit or getting inspections, then no biggie, I guess.
It's terrible light for applying makeup.
Actually, flourescent is by no means that flattering, it plainly shows the real deal much more than incandescent lighting. What you see in the mirror under flourescent lighting is going to be much more representative of what you look like outside, than the "warming" affect of incandescent lighting.
When you suggest putting a fluoresant over the sinks and then switching them out are you referring to the entire fixture?
That's exactly what I'm sayin'...a simple flourescent bulb ain't gonna satisfy this code.
What lights have you seen that work well for a good swap?
Geez, that's a pretty open-ended question; pretty much anything you can think of, want, or otherwise pick...the 110V isn't picky, just you or me.
Permits will be pulled for certain. I've only upgraded a bathroom in CA before, never completely rebuilt. I'm sure the electrical sub will have some good ideas. But, if I get pushed towards something I don't want, I feel better informed by you all to at least rebut with creative solutions.
don't know how hot the lv under counter halogens get, but the line voltage get hot enuff to melt stuff in the upper cabs. just had a guy that took out $400 worth of em and went to warm white flourscents....happy...