What would you employ to cut down on your energy costs ? Wind turbine , photo voltaic , or active solar water heating.
Supposing you already had a well insulated home to begin with .
Walter
What would you employ to cut down on your energy costs ? Wind turbine , photo voltaic , or active solar water heating.
Supposing you already had a well insulated home to begin with .
Walter
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Replies
Since I've got a big back yard with good southern exposure, I'd go photo voltaic and
put some batteries in a shed or something to keep them out of the basement. I'd try
and keep it as out of sight as possible.
-d
Put in a WSHP this summer, under $1K diy. COP of 5.6 sure beats the commercial air-air of 3.5. Very much depends on your climate and geography.
Being in Seattle area with lots of trees on my place, photovoltaics would be a waste of $$, although I have built a few PV systems for NASA.
You can always insulate more, install an air change exhanger, etc.
Cannot even visualize where I am located what I could spend $15K on that would ever repay itself vs. just spending $1k, although my diy system probably would run $10K if you paid retail rates.
Tried to get a permit for a dam on the stream thru my cabin property that would ahve probably cost me $15K in time and material to build and install a micro hydro facility, state game dept. found 2 steelhead fingerlings 50 ft upstream of where I could put the dam and nixed that idea,although had already cont thru corps of engineers design review. A 2 kW 24/7 'forever' would have been sweet, $400/year income selling power would have equated to about a whoppping 2.5% return, pretty good in these here 'bama days.
Would certainly have a DIY windmill if I lived in eastern WA, Dakota, N. IL, Nantucket, or similar area.
"You can always insulate more,"
JH,
Properly done, not more is key. Theoretical R values aside, I'm amazed at how much new construction has no snow on the roofs, thought built to (supposably min R-38) yet my house is R 21, and still has at least 6" left from November.
WSJ
I think photovoltaic is the biggest savings for the money. You can get the gov. to kick in and lower the cost to you.
Thanks I was hoping to hear were some logic to go with one over the other.
A friend just spent 19K for a wind system and I thought it's payback was too long .
I would first check the the federal, state, and local tax incentives for your area.I know Cali will foot a big part of the bill for PV solar, whereas in VA, we're pretty much on our own.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Supposing you already had a well insulated home to begin with .
That's a supposition I cannot make.
But, with $10-15K on hand dedicated to improving home energy efficiency, I'd have new wiring and panel installed, then insulate. With whatever was left over, I'd look at replacing 54 y/o galvanized with pex (as I'd still need a few more grand to install better windows and re-side).
Ok, let's extend the premise, I did all that last year, and this year another $10-15K is available, what then?
In that case, probably solar WH, with the panels extended off a bump-out on the house to increase shading (two-fer). That'd be only in the $4-5k range. Which then presents a dillemma. I've too many trees to really benefit from PV; same trees would be problematic for wind, too. So, I'd probably go towards some form of rainwater collection. Otherwise, it would go to residing which would address infiltration by resealing the house and windows and such.
Any kind of rainwater collection system is going to be a good idea in Texas now.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
Any kind of rainwater collection system is going to be a good idea in Texas now
Too true.
But, mostly, rainwater collection/sequestering is the best "grey water" system around. No dealing with soap suds or the like.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Of course for that to pay off we have to get some rain.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
course for that to pay off we have to get some rain
Too trrue, like buying a windmill or PV without buing batteries . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I want the solar hot water, I've had it before, a 1970s system that actually worked great.
For power generation, why can't I have a hybrid of pv and wind. Around here, one or the other is always available. (Northern Colorado).
I've always wondered why it is always one or the other, but I've never researched it enough find out, because it will be awhile before I can afford it anyway.
it will be awhile before I can afford it
Can you weld? Can you glue up boards and shape them? Do you have a source of scrap steel? A truck wrecking yard nearby?
If so, you can be online with a kW or so of wind power for a few hundred $$ - and maybe a few hundred hours of labor and reading how to off the internet.
Weld up a tower of scrap steel, build a wood prop according to any of the many open source prop profiles (NASA, old NACA), mount to an old kW or bigger alternator. If you cannot build a few kW inverter from internet plans, your biggest expense would be a few hundred $$ for an inverter. Maybe about $2 per day payback, more if you are right near Medicine Bow (read once that is the best wind area)
That sounds interesting. Where to go fo mo info?
1st set of hits, maybe you cannot do it if you cant find the info yourself?<G>
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&fkt=3047&fsdt=9266&q=building+a+wind+turbine&aq=1&oq=building+a+win
yeah, yeah, yeah...
Reason I asked, cause if you had first hand experience with a certain resource, I would feel more comfortable trusting their information.
Structure part is easy, electrical portion of the work is outta my abilities. (currently)
what kind of solar hot water system did you have?"there's enough for everyone"
It is a house I lived in as a teenager in the 80s. I didn't pay much attention to it, except that I knew it worked, while so many others from that era were worthless. Home was built in the 70s. There were large heavy panels on the roof, my parents had to hire a contractor to remove them, replace the supporting framing, and replace them. There were two large tanks in the basement, that were covered in foil faced insulation. I don't know what flowed through the panels.
My parents sold the house in 2000, and I know it was still working then.
For a chilly climate like Maine, maybe a biofuel heating system - wood, pellets, or what have you. Go crazy and cook/dry clothes/heat water with it too and your energy input costs will be minimal.
With 15k you'll have some $ left over for non-incandescent lights.
j
Well, as evidenced by my icicles I don't have a well-insulated home :)
However, as much as I would love to have a wind turbine, we can't have them in the town because of the noise they make - they aren't allowed in many towns across the country. We have a fabulous southern facing roof on our garage for solar, unfortunately the building under it is not well constructed, so I'd need more than 10-15K because I'd have to rebuild the garage, plus I'd need to replumb the whole house to get the water there to be heated, and the main circuit board is on the other side of the house, so just a while guess I'm easily looking at $60-70 grand to get solar for water heating or power.
Thanks everyone for the input. Just trying to see if wind made much sense as compared to direct water heating or PV.
This is outside the original question but
do I have geothermal?
That would be where I would start
of course that assumes a need for heat
then hyper insulate
then photovolticNo Tag
Serious answer:
Wind depends. Solar depends. Affordable GSHP depends. Hydroelectric depends.
When considering wind, a wind study needs to be performed. An engineer will come out and erect a huge pole at your site and put his wind gauges at different heights. That pole will stay there as long as he can talk you into it. The longer it stays, the more certain he can be of the answer to your question whether it makes sense or not.
Perhaps a good answer could be made simply by looking at the site. If'n you're up on a hill, no trees around and a well known windy site, or in a pass between two wind constrictions that are shaped "just the right way," you may be lucky. If there are trees around, your tower to mount the beast will need to go up far past their heights.
Therefore, the tower costs become an issue. Some boys well schooled in welding and engineering could perhaps fab their own structure outta some cassions or such. Others wil be calling on UNR Towers or others to get a good one. And paying for it. Should it be guyed? Or free standing? Site and money dependant.
Tower erection and de- & re-erection costs need to be considered.
Now the turbine. Not much to quibble about on design nowadays, other than downwind or upwind. Some say the downwind models suffer from "tower shadow" and thus are noisy. Lattice towers vs solid could minimize that. But downwind models don't need complicted steering devices, only brakes. Upwind's will have a tail or steering mechanism for high winds/direction. Be aware of the low speed that the machines will start. The tower needs to engineered to meet the high end limits.
Size of turbine determines output. That depends upon your personal use and state credits. Remember, as the length of the blade doubles, power output should cube. Therefore, coupled with the fixed costs, you want as big of a machine as you can get.
Therefore in order to answer your question, we put together the wind speeds, duration of such speeds, tower costs depending upon the most effective height, turbine performance and costs, utility buyback rates, and installation/maintenance costs to figger out that the thing is far more expensive than it needs to be.
Interface should be similar to PV or other source.
<Hydroelectric depends.>
What - they can generate electricity from wee-wee now?
Forrest - not understanding
<edit to not say "ur!ne">
Edited 2/2/2009 5:30 pm ET by McDesign
Buy a woodlot.
"Buy a woodlot.".
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Uh... Yes that is what I would do .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Buy an IRA. Stock mkt is affordable right now.
Maybe the best idea yet!
my woodlot cost more than $15k though.....
my woodlot cost more than $15k though.....
Bought 10 acres surrounded by Nat Forest.
Wood as far as I can see....
Joe H
Was talking to a Ga Power / ASHRAE rep moments ago at a "lunch-n-learn" about ground-source heat pumps (direct-injection / bored). The systems in our house are approaching 15-yrs-old, and it'd be really cool . . .
The $15K might just be the upcharge.
GA Power's new figures (finalized last week) will show a 7-12 year residential payback on the additional cost vs a minimum code-required system.
Forrest
I would start by having a professional energy audit of the house to see where I'm losing most of the heat & air. Whatever needed fixing (windows & doors,) I would do that. Then I would insulate, & ventilate properly, this means all crawl spaces, attic etc. My house was built in '62 and much of the insulation is still from that era (not too good).
Any $$ left over, I would get a pellet or wood stove, probably wood, and install it myself.
This would probably lead me to invest in photo voltaic panels.
(15K @ 3% CD rate)(.72)=$324 per year after tax....
$3k for a new furnace assy/$324= 9.26 years.
In nine years, I would upgrade the furnace to the same 92% efficient rating I have now.
Then start the ball rolling again...
and again...
and again
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
For a few hundred bucks I would buy some 10/3 extension cords and run them over to the neighbors. I'm sure it would be years before anyone caught on.
Walter,
Thought of your thread when I saw this in the paper this morning.
And for the record, I'd be inclined to pursue PV, but I'd admit that I'd have to do some research before settling on that option. Not sure wind would be a viable option here. Unless I could harness the hot air on Capitol Hill :)
Dark days for green energy
"Wind and solar power have been growing at a blistering pace in recent years, and that growth seemed likely to accelerate under the green-minded Obama administration. But because of the credit crisis and the broader economic downturn, the opposite is happening: installation of wind and solar power is plummeting."
View Image
Steve,
Thats what I was afraid of - with the current crunch there will be innovation and costs coming down.
I live in an area with lots of wind and unobstructed Southern sky so I think any could work for me. I haven't looked into costs and tax incentives yet either.
Walter
Here's what I have done:
I didn't have a well insulated house, so I added about a foot of cellulose in the attic and various tightening measures around the windows and doors. Total outlay for DIY - about $500. Savings amounted to about $15-$20/month giving a payback of about 3 years.
I have about 20 can lights in my shop. I switched them to CFLs from halogens (I use two halogens at a time to use them up - I'm on my last two). I'm guessing about $5/month savings and the CFL are about the same price as the halogens and last much longer.
My ancient heating/cooling system failed this past summer. I bought a hybrid air to air puron heat pump with natural gas backup. I spent about $4K over the base air to air HP with elec backup. My total elec/gas outlay has been running a minimum of $100/month less (and we've been hotter and colder than last year). So, my estimated payback on this is about 4 years. The heat pump was running at 12F the other day.
Now to your question about what i would do: I've been looking at solar hot water and photovoltaics, but can't make the numbers work yet. When my water heater gets on it's last legs, I'll get more serious about SHW.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"The heat pump was running at 12F the other day."Grant,When you say your HP was running, are you saying that the gas backup was not being used as well?Do you know what the HSPF rating is on the heat pump?That sounds really impressive that it was able to pump enough heat at 12°.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Do you know what the HSPF rating is on the heat pump?
I don't know what that means.
When you say your HP was running, are you saying that the gas backup was not being used as well?
Yes - it switches from one fuel to the other. I've set the thermostat to let the system decide what's best. On a cold sunny day, the HP will handle the heat load down to about 5 degrees, they claim. On a cloudy day and at night, the system switches to gas at around 20F.
Edit: As soon as I hit post the HP came on. It's 10F and the sun has been shining maybe 30 mins.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Edited 2/4/2009 11:08 am ET by seeyou
HSPF is the "Heating Seasonal Performance Factor", basically the winter version of the SEER.That's interesting that you can get enough BTU's on such a cold day to run just on the HP with no backup.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It's a 17 SEER, but i don't know about the other. The guys installing it kept telling me how impressed I'd be with it in the winter. It's up to 16 now and snowing again and it's still heating the house.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
It's 18F and dark and we're still on the HP.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Did your HVAC guy intimate that the performance of the HP was dependent on the sunshine?The reason I ask, and I could certainly be wrong, is because I don't think that solar gain would have any effect. I *think* the efficiency of the HP is just a factor of the temperature differential and the construction of the unit.There may be some very minor performance advantages to solar gain or low wind speed, but I don't think that they are anywhere close to the change that humans feel when the sun goes down.I'm hoping that someone can set me straight (I mean that in a purely educational way, not that there's anything wrong with the other way)*edited for spelling
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 2/4/2009 6:39 pm ET by JonBlakemore
Did your HVAC guy intimate that the performance of the HP was dependent on the sunshine?
Yes and with a look of wonder. And my thoughts were the same as yours, but as we've gotten into our coldest weather, I'm seeing the results as promised.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I'm thinking I need a good enery auditer like Jer suggested to figure out if any system makes financial sense.
Not looking to spend a bunch for a 30 year payback and only live here for another 20.
Walter