So you want to underbid guys like me who are licensed, insured, and tax paying and then come and ask us what we would have charged if we weren’t getting our backs stabbed by guys like you?
Did I get that right?
Yeah….. I’ll get right on that for you.
Replies
I am around Mt. Vernon, IL. One hour east of St. Louis, MO. The moonlighters around here work for $15.00 cash, the ones that are not hacks charge $25.00.
My boss throws me work for weekends, I charge $32.00 I turn stuff down, but when I do things it has to be "worth it"
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Did you ever do "side work" before you went on your own? I do it on occasion, but what I do comes from my boss, and I do have insurance for the just in case.
I don't feel I am backstabbing since I know what some of the smaller contractors are charging, and I have lost side work to real contractors, because they are cheaper.
Comments?
Jeremy
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
A simple equation.
Total Materials x 1.5 = Total Labour
Total Materials + Total Labour = Total Job
This way any design changes are covered. The more guys that use this equation the better it is for everybody. No more competeing buy price alone. We won't have to cut our throats to get a job.
Dave
Dae, I know you love your work!But you will not love it for very long using formulae like that. You will be facing bankruptcy that way. The cost of labour has NO relationship whatsoever to the cost of materials.
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I would be very interested in seeing your work, but that file size is ten to twenty times as large as I am willing to try downloading. It is unthinkable for those of use on Dial-up connections. See if you canmanage to resize it and repost.
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I thought you had a photograph instead of a rendering. That's a pretty good sized deck.
How did you do the engineeering for supporting the hot tub?
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Engenerin? We don't need no engenerin! The hot tub weren't put in place til after the "taillight gerentee" was up!
"Brilliance!! Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!! That's all I can say....." Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
Ssshh!Be quiet man. Can't you see I'm fishing here?
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Judgemental?
He engineered it himself. In his day job, he's the chief of the 48-person structural staff downtown at Skidmore Owings and Merrill. ;-)
Now what will we say if he comes back and confirms that?
In today's politically correct environment, we must give all cash-under-the-table folks the benefit of the doubt!
Hnuh?
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How many of you guys think you can sell a job to a homeowner that wants to hire unlicensed guys for cash? I know I can't... I charge at least 50% more than they do, if not twice as much. My customers are the people who want a licensed contractor. In the ideal world everyone would be licensed and the playing field would be level, but it won't ever happen, so licensed guys have to look for clients who want their level or performance and skip the rest. This gets discussed in one form or another in at least three different threads every day.
Not to say I condone unlicensed guys doing jobs under the table... since I absolutely don't... but ranting about it will never change it.
Maybe they just need a place to vent.
vent on
Barry E-Remodeler
I know, I know, I have ranted on the same issue myself a lot of times. There will always be unlicensed hacks doing work (along with the licensed hacks doing it too) and the only thing I can think of is to step on their backs on the climb up.
Once in a while I remember work a buddy of mine and I did when we were just starting. We were both about 20 and very eager to be good carpenters, even though we had about 2 years experience between us and knew squat. My dad had a slumlord friend with a bunch of sh!tty property rented to students. We did work for him, $10 per hour. We didn't even know what a license was and I stole my dad's Craftsman sidewinder and electric drill as our only power tools. I doubt we took any work away from the good guys--no one was going to get more than a nickel from this clown.
They don't bother me much. They create more demand for good work in the future redoing their mistakes. That's where the big money is.And there are plenty of "professional" builders who do the same, like that slab edge in Jax we were looking at...I'm not going to worry about a sidejobber taking work away from me. But I'm not going to help jhim price the work either.My purpose is to help him - and other DIYs reading the thread, to learn and know how to do this right.Otherwise, he is going to build ten more decks with flaws and errors until somebdoy gets hurt.
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C'mon Gene! SOM subs out all of their structural engineering- they prefer to simply be "starchitects". Get with the program, man!!!
Bob"Brilliance!! Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!! That's all I can say....." Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
Re SOM, I knew that. I really did. But if I said that Mr UnderTheTableCashDeckbuilder was the lead tech suit at Kaskowitz & Kelly, who would recognize that? ;-)
Just to back up Diesel here..............does your homeowner realize the risk he is assuming hiring uninsured "contractors"?
Or do you realize the risk you are taking designing and building with no permit?
Suppose you have holes dug for footings. You diligently cover them and leave for a day or two. It rains and several of the holes fill with water. The ho's young child wanders out of sight for a couple of minutes and out of shear curiousity, uncovers one of the holes, falls in and drowns. Or possibly worse, drowns and is revived and becomes a vegetable for the remainder of her life.
Whatcha gonna do then Side Job Sam??
A year or so goes buy and one day that hot tub with six people in it collapses through the "self engineered" deck injuring several people in the process, some quite seriously.
Whatcha gonna do then No Insurance "Contractor" Guy??
Your "helper" falls in one of the footing holes and suffers a spiral fracture to his femor requireing expensive surgeries and putting him out of work for months. Who is going to feed those cute babies that his stay at home wife is caring for? What is going to keep him from suing the HO as you KNOW his lawyers will be advising him to??
Whatch gonna do then??
You may think Brian or others are picking on you, but you better think long and hard about the exposure you open yourself and the homeowner up to working for cash with no insurance or licenses.
There are guys here that have worked long and hard to aqquire the necessary credentials and insurances required to do work like you are doing on the side.
It's entirely understandable why your flippant attitude would be taken as offensive by some here.
I work for a contractor now after many years in business. I get asked all the time to do "side" jobs. I would not even consider it for a moment as I do not have insurance. Never mind the ethical philosophy.
Good luck
Eric
[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Edited 3/10/2007 1:11 pm ET by EricPaulson
I doubt Diesel needs any backing EP...I sure didn't hear him asking for help.The drawing was done by me only to help the homeowner conceptualize what the deck would look like when finished. The plans for the deck were drawn up by a friend of the HO who is an architect.The holes for the footings were dug and poured in the same day, you'll be happy to hear no children fell in a drown.I doubt the on grade deck will collapse and injure anyone, but there is a chance.You'll also be happy to hear the other carpenter on the job did not fall into a footing and fracture his leg. I did however suffer a spiral fracture sliding into second base playing softball almost 20 years ago, and it didn't require any expensive surgery.The homeowner was well aware of the risks involved with having the job done as it was. He's in the business of understanding those risks and still decided to handle it as a side job.Look, there was no flippant attitude by me at all. I simply stated that I was doing a side job and honestly find it difficult to believe other carpenters out there (who are qualified to build decks and read plans) have not done side jobs themselves. I've been in the trades almost 20 years, as a carpenter almost 10 and can't think of anyone who has not, at some point, done some side work.I also stated that in this case the HO would have elected not to do the job if he would have had to pay a licensed/insured contractor to come in. Several of his clients are GC's so he is aware of what the job would have cost.Sorry to have started such a sh*tstorm, that was not at all my intention. Making me aware of your/others feelings about side work is one thing, carrying on with such extreme hyperbole as you have is a bit ridiculous.I'll see if I can delete this thread so as not to offend anyone else and you'll hear no more from me.
carrying on with such extreme hyperbole as you have is a bit ridiculous.
Yeah, none of what I suggested has never ocurred,I'm just being nuerotic again.
I'll see if I can delete this thread so as not to offend anyone else and you'll hear no more from me.
No reason to run off son.................stick around, there is lots to learn. You might even learn a thing or two about being a good businessman, how to make a profit AND be kegit at the same time.
Best wishes.
[email protected]
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I KNOW somebody will end up being confused as all h3ll about what the deleeted posts said.To help out and keep the thread full of context, here it is at the beginning:
From: TFri Mar-9 10:29 pm
To: ALL (1 of 24)
86918.1 I hope I don't get lynched for posting this but...my buddy and I built this deck last fall for a guy who paid us by the hour. I think he got a great deal, simply because we built it for cash 'on the side'...we are not contractors or subs (and didn't charge like we were), just carpenters doing a little side work.I'll state the details because I'm curious to hear what pricing for this might be...I know it will vary wildly from region to region but possibly someone will post from around me (Chicago suburbs)...I'd also be interested in hearing what the deck might run in other areas.Framing - 2x8 PT
Decking - 2x6 PT (gun nailed)
Rails - Cedar 2x2's sandwiched between cedar 1x4's, top and bottom, with a 2x6 beveled edge handrail.
Rails - Handrail on hot tub side of the deck is lighted with rope light under the 2x6 handrail...we installed the rope light but not the electric.
Post - Posts for rails are 6x6 cedar with with 1x cedar boot wraps top and bottom. Doubled post caps are beveled edge 1x6 on beveled edge 1x8's
Posts below grade - Post on hot tub side are 6x6 PT in 12" diameter holes (maybe 10 total)and posts on other side are 4x4 PT in 8" diameter holes (maybe 8).There is about 1200sf of decking and about 170lf of rail. The rails will remain unpainted/uncaulked cedar. There was no covering up bad cuts with caulk on this deck. The only other thing of note is we needed to rent a bobcat to remove an asphalt sidewalk as well as using it to bore the 12" diameter holes to frost line, 42" below grade.I made the picture/designed the deck in advance to show the homeowner about what to expect. Took me a few hours.The 'interior' side of the deck without rails is where the house is.Any thoughts or figures as to how you'd price this deck?
- Attachments follow -Jacks_Deck3.png
2373KB (3MB)
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From: dieselpig Mar-9 10:48 pm
To: TFri (2 of 24)
86918.2 in reply to 86918.1 So you want to underbid guys like me who are licensed, insured, and tax paying and then come and ask us what we would have charged if we weren't getting our backs stabbed by guys like you?Did I get that right?Yeah..... I'll get right on that for you.
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From: bstcrpntr Mar-9 10:49 pm
To: TFri (3 of 24)
86918.3 in reply to 86918.1 I am around Mt. Vernon, IL. One hour east of St. Louis, MO. The moonlighters around here work for $15.00 cash, the ones that are not hacks charge $25.00.My boss throws me work for weekends, I charge $32.00 I turn stuff down, but when I do things it has to be "worth it"The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today. "IdahoDon 1/31/07"
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From: bstcrpntr Mar-9 10:51 pm
To: dieselpig (4 of 24)
86918.4 in reply to 86918.2 Did you ever do "side work" before you went on your own? I do it on occasion, but what I do comes from my boss, and I do have insurance for the just in case.I don't feel I am backstabbing since I know what some of the smaller contractors are charging, and I have lost side work to real contractors, because they are cheaper.Comments?JeremyThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today. "IdahoDon 1/31/07"
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From: TFri Mar-9 11:03 pm
To: bstcrpntr (5 of 24)
86918.5 in reply to 86918.3 That's right where we were at, $30 an hour. It took us right about 2 weeks.
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From: Doctor Dave Mar-9 11:06 pm
To: TFri (6 of 24)
86918.6 in reply to 86918.1 A simple equation.Total Materials x 1.5 = Total LabourTotal Materials + Total Labour = Total JobThis way any design changes are covered. The more guys that use this equation the better it is for everybody. No more competeing buy price alone. We won't have to cut our throats to get a job.Dave
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From: TFri Mar-9 11:10 pm
To: dieselpig (7 of 24)
86918.7 in reply to 86918.2 No backstabbing going on at all. It's a side job, nothing more nothing less. And no, I'm not asking the question so I can charge double for the next one, more than anything I was just curious. The question came up recently when one of his friends saw the deck.I do almost no sidework...I needed some extra money and this fell in our laps. I'm supposed to say no because there is a contractor out there somewhere that needs work? I can assure you the homeowner wouldn't have been able to afford to have a contractor do the work at 2, 3 or maybe even 4 times what he paid us. If you'd have been offered the job at what we were paid you'd have no doubt walked...and understandably so.We both won, he got a nice deck at a real good price and we made some extra money for ourselves.Sorry I touched a nerve.
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at 1:35 I recieved a very well written email from the OP recounting his case in part.I don't think he was too far over the edge, but he feels too set upon to reply further here so I guess the case is finished.For benefit of other readers, if you are considering deck work, please be sure it is engineered and built correctly, using proper fasteners. Every year, we see far too many deck collapses with injuries.
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I didn't exactly mean to run him off. Just smack him up a bit.
To quote you..............My purpose is NOT to hang you nor to indict yuou, but to help you learn for the future.
BTW, I believe there WILL be a future repeat of this for several reasons. One is that you mention having built two decks here and then say that the subject of pricing came up when a contact thru theis deck brought it up. This strongly implies that they are thinking of hioring you and your Q strongly implies that you are thinking of taking on yet another deck side job.
So- in the interest of keeping your future homeowner customers healthy and alive....and please correct me if I am wrong and mis-interpret what you presented
He has not a clue what risk he is open to, nor what risk he has exposed the HO to.
This is the epitome of what is wrong with this industry. Throw a belt and a hammer in the back of your pick up and your "in business".
He just forgot about the risk to life and limb he created. Or insurance to cover the sad results of what MIGHT happen due to his greed.
What if he was doing this for a relative or someone you know and the worst happened?
With all due respect Paul, do you honestly believe that if the deck was seriously under engineered that you are going to convince him to correct it?
To be overly philosophical about it, greed is what is driving the relationship between him and the HO. HO is too greedy to pay what the project is worth in order to insure the safety of his family and houseguests. The "carp" is too greedy to bother with the expense of proper engineering and insurance.
Yep, one heck of a deal these two have going.
Tell me you don't recall the beating I took once upon a time here over something about a buried J box?
Eric[email protected]
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OK Everybody gets to be happy...I don't remember...Sheesh! I'm an old man. I don't even remember everything I have been called down on here. You think I keep score for you too?;)I remember a thread awhile back about J-boxes but no details.
ReallyI just imagine the OP feels about like this
http://www.toofunnyjokes.com/images/funny-pictures-toons/funny-toon-pic079.jpg
after this thread!I don't think he's up to any great evil. It was designed by an archy, the 3D was for visualization for th eHO and was not pure design work. The fasteners were appropriate...and like I said, I'm not going to comment here on the money issues surronding this. Maybe another day another dollar.
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The whole issue really rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps I was harsh.
Not to belabor the thread but..........what kind of liability does the architect incurr if something went wrong in a situation like this?[email protected]
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So, tell me, am I wasting my time on you or are you interested in learning something other than pricing for a deck like this?Most of what you have written shows you to be fairly intelligent, if slightly inexperienced, but deleting ones own posts rarely serves any purpose. Sometimes it ends up making you look worse because of the context of replies surronding delted posts and because the history here of those who choose to delete their own postshas not been a good one overall.
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Purely out of frustration did I delete my posts. Bad idea in retrospect, this just got a bit out of hand...the direction this thread took was not my intention at all. I definitely didn't come here looking for a fight, and would rather not stick around to get into one.I learned much from this thread and actually am in a bit of agreement with many of the the thoughts presented, just not with the way some of them were presented.
I'm trying to be patient and not say too much here. Of course you knew when you started the thread you might get slaped around a bit since you openned with a comment about being fearful of a lynching...
I'll try to avoid a lynch mentality. I know you are going to do what you are going to do regardless of somebdoies opinion of you. So I will stay out of questions like whether you paid income taxes on the money or cheated the rest of us who pay taxes on our incomes.
What concerns me is this - the number of decks that fail in this country and that cause catastrophic injury and death is rising. In a great many places, decks are built as after-thoughts by DIYs and sidejobbers with little or no knowledge of the dangers involved. Hot tubs are involved in some of them.
You make several comments that indicate to me a strong possibility that you may have under-engineered this deck. So your comment to Brian that the HO got a nice deck for the money is open to interpretation and doubt.
Let me list the hints of that so you can answer in that regards, if you wish to. My purpose is NOT to hang you nor to indict yuou, but to help you learn for the future.
BTW, I believe there WILL be a future repeat of this for several reasons. One is that you mention having built two decks here and then say that the subject of pricing came up when a contact thru theis deck brought it up. This strongly implies that they are thinking of hioring you and your Q strongly implies that you are thinking of taking on yet another deck side job.
So- in the interest of keeping your future homeowner customers healthy and alive....and please correct me if I am wrong and mis-interpret what you presented
You said that you had drilled holes for sonotube piers for the foundation of this.
Unless you used a tremendous number of them, there is no way that a small sonotube bearing on soil with no footing under it has enough capacity to support the load of a tank of water on that corner of the deck. Footers spread load over a much wider soil surface to support the loaad. without footers there, the soil has to have a high bearing capacity or the piers will sink into the ground over time from the load.
Live load must also be considered for the amt of snow that will bear on the entire structure. People are heavy too. A lot of deck collapses happen at graduations and pool partys and weddings due to the number of people loading the deck.
Sometimes that stress failure happens at the ledger to house connection, especially when done with typiocal HO or DIY methodology.
So when your deck sags dowwn under the hot tub, it will stress the ledger and pull down and away from the house.
The next indication I had of your inexperience in this and that makes me wonder about your "nice deck" comment is that I have never seen a nice deck built with 2x6PT decking shot down with a gun. 2X6PT is a very poor choice of decking material. A nail gun does not generally do a neat job for a deck. I expect the owner will have a lot of slivers in bare feet to deal with.
But Hey, I could be wrong. That is why I had wanted to see a picture before commenting.
Now - to something even more potentially problematic.
Doi you know what kind of fasteners are required for the new ACQ PT lumber in an application like this? The gun nailed comment alerted me to wondering. ACQ will eat through most fasteners in mere months in wet conditions. The Happy Homeowner won't be so happy about hiring somebody to rebuild soon if you didn't use the right thing.
Finally, the way you interssect the direction of the decking runs is a classic sign of inexperience if you built it the way the rendering shows. Maybe that is just a function of cheap software and its limitations. Again, I don't know. There are ways that look far better. They also connect to how things are framed down under the decking itself and hint at how it was done.
There was one other issue bouncing around my poor brain, but for th emoment - I forget what it was.
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