By ignorance I mean Unknowing. This is not to slam laborers. It seems lately I have to work around more and more ignorance. If I ask for a cut at 13 and 5/8 inch I then have to explain that it is 13 and ten little marks or 2 marks past half etc. forget getting a compound cut for a valley rafter. I realize that we all learn these things at different times and by sundry methods… it is just trying to my waning patience. Does anybody have successful methods to share? I really do extend great effort at teaching, but it is discouraging to train them only to lose them the next month, year, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I know it’s all part of the deal…it’s just that I’m trying to work smarter as I age.
Help! Miami
Replies
By all means, work smarter.
Don't hire laborers to do a carpenters job.<G>
I feel for you. Reading a ruler or tape measure used to be taught in School. Now they are too busy teaching kids how to take the standardized tests. Like who cant read a question and pick A. B. C. or D. ?
Kip
Some catch on quick. ( and forget everything the next day)
Some catch on slow. ( a dim light goes on after the 1500th explanation)
Some never catch on at all. (................................................huh?)
Trying to distinguish the BS'ers, ("Oh yeah, I've done that before") from the diamonds in the rough is one of the great challenges of the trade. It can make you or break you and I am convinced that the whole process boils down to luck.
One way is to hire four guys to do one job and fire three of them the next day.
Or you can skip all this frustration, and do what the corporations do. Headhunt. Find a worker that someone else has gone thru all the trouble of training and offer them more money.
More money!!!
From a contractor??
what planet are you on??
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
I agree with the last post, in that you have to pay for what you want, sometimes a little more, or get lucky. Let me share some of my experiences in the hiring foray.
The retard -- Drive nails, carry boards -- and with your constant supervision, everytime, all the time. Had two of them in one time of desperation, turned over quickly.
Said to me one morning by a yeasty smelling new recruit: "Don't mind my smell, I'm sober now, its from last night..." He lasted one day.
Told to me during an interview by a highly recommended framer who was quite skilled, but impaired in other ways: "If I want to smoke a joint at lunch time, that's my right, I earned it!" "Why worry about me falling off the roof, you don't have to pay if I'm high...." and my favorite: "I am known as 12 - pack Fr---ie, I'll do the little extras, like climb up and cut in a vent for a 12 pack."
And the stable old standby: "Oh yeah, I've been framing for years..." "I framed with my dad." "I worked with my brother/dad/cousin/uncle/godfather...."
Said on the jobsite, in hearing distance of customers:"...and then she was all mad at me because she said I was sexually inappropriate with her 7 year old daughter..."
" I can't be working for you in two weeks, I have to go to prison to start my sentence...."
Other experts: After two days, "My arm hurts, I can't come in."
After two months: "Now that I know how to frame, why should I work for you for your little money?"
"Oh yeah, I 've been doing this for years..." two hours later..."I don't like all that dust in my eyes!" "This hammer is no good." "Hold on, I can't see the line, I don't have my glasses."
"Yeah, he says he's sorry he hasn't shown up for two weeks, but he says if you post his bail, he'll show up everyday..."
Then there's the Prima Donna Golden Arm Carpenters (many trained in this attitude by the unions):
"I sub drywall yeah, my price is $2 a sq. ft., you supply the wallboard, the screws, I want this type of corner bead, mud, tape, I don't like to be rushed...oh and did I mention I want it boomed up also before I get there?"
"I want xxxx$ to finish that floor, yeah, well you know the equipment alone costs me $300 a day to rent."
In November: "Yes, I'm a carpenter, do you have work? I'll do whatever I have to..uh, no, I do inside work only..."
"Don't keep buggin me about liability insurance! I'll get it if I want!"
"That's the way I was trained, we always do that when we do a whole roof...", he says defending the chimney bearing huge gashes in the mortar where there once was lead flashing...
"Yeah, we heard you were looking for sheetrockers, yeah, we frame too, and do finish, and landscaping, and masonry and snow blowing and window cleaning...and eletrical and plumbing..."
-- kt
Quentin Walsh: "When my chowder freezes in my thermos then I know its time to pack it up and go home." teacher/mentor
Don't sugar coat it! Tell us how you really feel!
You know I really love these forums! It helps me to know that I'm not the only one who goes through these things. On a bad day I can always come home and read posts until I'm laughing so hard my eyes water!
My wife thinks I've lost it as occasionally I'll be lying in bed and just start jiggling and eventually laughing at a post that was particularly funny.
Miami
I hope my post made you laugh, then you made my day. -- kt"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." -- Nick Diamos
kt,
That is one of the best posts I've read in a looooong time.
Perspective is a good thing.<g>
Had a kid once that was the hardest working laborer anyone could ask for. If you asked him to carry sheets of plywood down a hill he would grab as many as he could get his hands around and drag them if he had too. He was hardcore just because he didnt no better I was always telling him to take it easy. The problem was he wasnt any smartere than the plywood he was carrying. I gave him a circular saw and some hardiplank and asked him to cut me a few 12" pieces. I forgot about him and walked away, about an hour later i went to check on him and he was still there cutting. He had quite the stack of 12" peices and boy was he proud of his progress. Must have been 150 pieces laying there. Couldn do anything but laugh.
Quit complaining, he cut a few, didn't he,just like you told him.
did you learn anything from this kid?
Actually, Hube, i learned alot from him about employee interpretatations of instructions. He also set the bar for a hardworking employee.
justin... i got a rule for that situation.. i call it my "A - B" rule
when i'm explaining something to someone i go thru all of the details.. they give me positive feedback.. i KNOW we're on the same wavelength
i KNOW when i come back it'll be just what i had in mind...
when i come back , it's completely different..
when i had the concept in my head.. it was concept "A".. but they were looking at concept "B" in their head..
an awful lot of people have different data bases in their head than i do.. the only way around this is to have pictures or drawings that eliminate the differences
or... keep working with the same guys until you have eliminated all of the variablesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I`m with Rich...why in the world are you expecting laborers to complete carpentry tasks?
The only thing the laborers ought to be doing is carrying the lumber from the stack to the bench so the carpenter can make the cut you need.
In all seriousness...there are folks who are cut out for certain things and others that are not. My youngest brother has been in the trades for years....started out shortly after I did. He can tape and paint with the best of them.....but to this day I won`t ask him to cut me a peice of lumber.
There`s more to this trade than reading a tape measure and swinging a hammer.....the sooner we all realize this, and start acting as such, perhaps we`ll begin to recieve the respect we deserve.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
drug test
drug test
Ya lost me there brotha.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
"there are folks who are cut out for certain things and others that are not"true words of wisdom.Saw a guy in a local resaurant recently. This guy was BIG, took up the whole table, if you know what I mean. Really a big guy.Anyway, he had on a T shirt that said, "I may not be smart, but I can lift heavy things."Almost busted out laughing in appreciation of that guy's own self humor. Also, still wondering if he was dumb as a rock, or a rocket scientist. Either way, he had wit. Norm
i was on a jobsite, and everything look wrong, rebar tie wrong, footing is wrong spot. people could not remember measurement. super drug tested all 23 employee. one was negative. next day he hired 22 mexican and production improved.
>next day he hired 22 mexicans
Did he drug test the mexicans?Big Macs - 99 cents
not only did he drug test the mexician, the contractor bought my old mobile home and got 11 living in it. He pay there room and board. He claims he will never hire another white guy. Pays them pretty good too.
Pays them pretty good too...
Must be while they bunk 11 to a mobile. Why hire a white guy when you can get Juan and his amigos to do it for 1/2 & no need to withhold taxs. And people wonder why the youth of America want nonthing to do with construction.
Yea G, no reason to hire another white man!!!
They pay the immigrents the same rate as any other crew here and they do hold out the same. with so many border patrol running I 10 they do it by the book. It just they are so much better workers than others. for the same pay they get double the production out of same amount of workers. Be honest the mexician know one phone call and they back across the border.
Just wonder how they could get hired if they don't have a SS# & not a U.S. citizen? When we hire we have them fill out an I-9, no SS# no job. Per the Feds. But then many can get fake papers or use somebodys SS#.
>>>how they could get hired if they don't have a SS# & not a U.S. citizen?
One doesn't need to be a US citizen to work legally in this country. Examples are permanent residency or legal work permit (given under a variety of circumstances). Just needs to be approved, by the book...
Were you one of the 22 or the one sober guy???
Odds are against you !!!
:p
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Arguing with a Taunton/Lowes editor is like trying to argue with a jackass, sooner or later you realize he's just braying back at you because it is all he knows
I was the concrete inspector on the job, everytime I pass a drug test, boss hands me a fifty dollar bill. Makes him look good to know we can go into any power plant, chemical plant, paper mill.
> I really do extend great effort at teaching, but it is discouraging to train them only to lose them the next month, year, etc. Don't get me wrong, I know it's all part of the deal...it's just that I'm trying to work smarter as I age.
You get what you pay for and you complain about it. You have no one to blame but yourself.
A guy I know went to McDonalds and he could not understand why he could not communicate with his order taker. He thought they needed to get some help that understood English. At $5.00 an hour Walmart just can't find cashiers and McDonalds can't get order takers. It costs money to live in America.
You get what you pay for and you complain about it. You have no one to blame but yourself.
Ok Farmer Dave, I'm not sure how to take that. I start labors at $10/ hour the very first day. If they know anything at all or show willingnewss to learn they go to $ 12 / hour the next day. I profit share and work side by side with them. How is this my fault? Why should I blame myself? please clarify.
Miami
If they can quit you in a month for more money, you are not towing the line. If you are hiring the cheapest giving them training and watching recruit after recruit hit the trail, you need to have your head examined. But if you are giving them all a start, I admire you.Big Macs - 99 cents
I have a policy of giving everyone who wants to work a chance to try, I judge no one at face value. This is a kind of a personal thing, since as a female in the mid-eighties I needed to leave my deadbeat, no-good husband and feed my children. I figured a man's work would pay and I always thought construction was pretty neat. No way, no one would give me a chance, in fact I was laughed at more times than I can tell you. I gave up and had to support my three children for most of their years earning piddly wages at dead-end useless jobs (I am not the secretary type). When I finally did get a chance to work construction, fifteen years later, the company couldn't believe the worker they had. I was glad to finally be doing something I loved and I love to MOVE!Now that I have my own company, I expect the same of the people who work for us. I worked for nothing for years, tolerated being treated like crap at stupid jobs. I try hard to be a good employer. We have one guy now that is good, he doesn't know everything, but he's willing to work and willing to learn. As for Spanish people. Up here in the east there are a lot of people from Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic and some seep up from Mexico.
Spanish people are by and large very conservative, family oriented and hard working. I have a Columbian that I sub framing to now who is polite, ethical and a family man. He doesn't drink or smoke, goes to church on Sundays and believes in being a good man. I have a lot of respect for that. Now white guys, I see alot that would rather lay around, watch the ole lady work at the local convenience while they tinker with the truck, suck on a beer and wait for the "what I'm worth". Example:We were building a house last summer up in a rather remote pocket of the state (vacation house for mass. people). A local man comes up, appointed by the owners as the watcher of the property. While nailing and talking to him I say, "You know anybody skilled in framing looking for work around here?" He replied, "Yeah, as a matter of fact, my buddy who lives across the street is a carpenter, he's looking for work right now." "Oh yeah? Give me his number, or you can have him stop by and see us, we're here six days a week."Then he began to drawl a little slowly, "Well...it depends on what you pay..." "Well, have him come talk to us." I replied getting a little impatient, thinking about the rows of T-1-11 shacks and mobile homes I see for miles up there. "He's looking for benefits and 401k. Do you offer that? And I know he'd want at least 25 an hour to start..." his eyes look up at me and they look a little bloodshot. I count roughly ten tattoos on one arm."Benefits? You mean health insurance? Christ I don't even have that, we're just a small company!" "Well, he has a family." he replied."What do you do?" I asked, since its 11 in the morning on a weekday and he's obviously not beholden to an employer. "Oh, I'm just a painter myself. I work around the area here and there."Turns out I found out from someone else that it was he who was looking for the work and he was the 'skilled' carpenter. He tried to get paid some crazy money for doing a sheetrock repair someone tole me later, tried to justify the high price by claiming he'd put on 10 coats of mud because that's the "best way"! And his wife worked in the local grocery store while he stayed home all day. A Spanish man would rather castrate himself (if his wife's father didn't get him first) than to be like that.
This is a kind of a personal thing, since as a female in the mid-eighties I needed to leave my deadbeat, no-good husband and feed my children.
Girlbuilder, since you're in your mid eighties, its about time you let that deadbeat go. Now its time to let the children feed themselves since they gotta be in their 50's and 60's themselves too!
I give you a lot of credit for still pounding away in your mid eighties! You da woman!
I love your "skilled carpenter" story.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
"Girlbuilder, since you're in your mid eighties, its about time you let that deadbeat go. Now its time to let the children feed themselves since they gotta be in their 50's and 60's themselves too!"...Oh my god...I'm laughing like hell!
Edited 12/4/2004 8:53 pm ET by girlbuilder
You go Girl builder!
I just read your post and your Profile.
If I weren't Happily Married already......................
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Edited 12/4/2004 9:36 am ET by Mr T
Girlbuilder, are you also KT? If so,we've 'met'....online anyway.I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
yes FramerT, we have met before at the JLC online, which I haven't posted to in ages. You framing right now?
a lot with the spanish worker is, they usually follow the family trade and been doing the work since a young age so somebody it their twenty have at least ten years experience. they have like a apprenticeship
Girlbuilder
Now white guys, I see alot that would rather lay around, watch the ole lady work at the local convenience while they tinker with the truck, suck on a beer and wait for the "what I'm worth".
I count roughly ten tattoos on one arm.
I judge no one at face value.
Seems to me that you do prejudge.
So let me get this strait, not just from your post but those of others, all the white guys are lazy and do drugs, and all the Latino workers are family oriented, hard working, concerned about their quality of work and.............
I think some of you need to get out more!
Doug
Man i wanted to skip this whole subject seeing as how i've hired every crackhead, theve'n, lazy,lie'n sack of crap that ever crawled from under a rock... ( and thats just in the last week)
being in the south as u guys all know none of us down here are too bright anyway... so it's always the blind lead'n the blind
BUT...
my best framer/do anything work his butt off guy who happened to have a great heart... was/is a total crackhead who i sent through rehab...got out of jail/ left in jail... got on work release...helped his mom while he was in jail ect... and he'd still rob my truck at nite... he'd walk in the rain 10 miles in house slippers and stand at my door at 1am cry'n beg'n for $10... he should be the poster child for the anti drug guys... I use to hate to pay him knowing that he'd smoke every dime of it within hours of being paid.. i felt like i was contributing to his problem by letting him work, I use to make excuses not to pay him all his $$ at one time thinking that if he smoked that much it'd kill him...
I have one guy now who was working for my brick sub who showed up and asked for work ( my brick guy took an out of town job and left this guy hang'n with 2 small kids)... this guy shows up everyday not real bright, quick, or talented, and has to leave early everyday to pick up his kids (i have no problem with that) i pay the guy $8 an hour and he honestly isn't worth it i have him sweep alot and keep work areas clean and he is there to lend a hand to whoever needs a grunt... but he wouldn't be missed or needed if he didn't show up... but he needs the work and thanks me everyday when he leaves....
most of my guys are spanish... and i'm in a city thats 60% blk... I'll hire anyone and everyone that will work and has any skill... there just aren't many that do... so few know how to read a rule... know what level, sq or plumb is...
I have learned : after i give instructions to ask... "now what are you going to do and how?" and let them explain it back to me... i also try to teach as we go not just what we're doing but why we do it the way we do it... how if we do this now... it will save time later ect... i try to paint the whole picture and try to make what we do fun... i'll call guys off of doing what they know how to do and show them something new... if i'm solder'n pipe then i give a solder'n lession... if i'm welding i try to teach someone to weld...
sometimes you strike gold... but mostly you get coal.... which is cool, i just get tired of hit'n rock....
pony
Yes, I knew I'd get criticized for those comments, as well I should be. yes, I noticed his tattoos and took note, but I woulda hired him if he wanted to work for what I could pay for a starter which wasn't too bad for the going rate in the area. Just something about his overall looks that I tried to convey to the reader, that let me know that he had an identity linked to a rougher type of life. Sometimes, those folks have issues that can cause problems. I never had any of my former crackhead employees steal from me. Yet.My best best buddy friend of many years ago was a horrible crack head. He and I were working on my apartment i lived in at the time. He stole from me everyday and would cry when caught. he taught me alot about taping and also body work with cars. He did time in prison finally and came to see me after so many years. i still think about him and wonder how he is. He was like a brother, which made it so much harder to see him fight with that monster of drug addiction. I love people really Doug and oftentimes its the most interesting and sensitive ones that get sucked into the drug or alcohol and it makes me more mad than I can express.the SPanish people I run into to hire aren't into the drug culture thing, I wouldn't spend ten minutes with the "gangsta" self identifiers. there are plenty of them around. I don't have time for Mr. Coolio.As for my prejudice against white guys, well that's what I see more often than not among the construction skilled white male. Unfortunate as it is. Most often around here, the white males (and Spanish or whatever for that matter) that have anything going on usually go into business for themselves.
Girlbuilder
I wasn't picking on you, those things just caught my attention.
I lived most of my life in Iowa, now I'm in Texas. There is a big difference between the Latino community down here and those that make there way up north.
I used to think the same as you do about the Latinos. Now that I'm down here in TX and there is a larger sample to look at you see that just as any other race, they have their deadbeats, dopers, and criminals.
I to have some very close friends that can not free themselves of drugs and or alcohol, some of the most talented people I know, it is a shame. It does hurt knowing that they have so much to offer/give.
Doug
I trhink what she's saying is that the notion that hispanocs are bad workers, and whiteys are always good workers ... ain't always so.
I have only been cheated* twice, both times by hispanics. But then my favorite electrician and stone mason are hispanic. It takes all colors.
* cheated, as in deliberately taking money and either not doing any work, or doing an incredible bad job on purpose. This is different than people who do bad work cuz they don't know any better.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I like your posts - and your style.Couple storys that this thread reminds me of....I was on a cobndo job, doing backuyp framing, so I was often alone. one day, there had been a big snowstorm before windows installed and they had a laboredr shoveling out two feet of snow sdrifts. He had been in a motorcycle wreck and his brain was parted out from it. But he was a very willing worker. He and I alone on jhobn and he kept asking me every ten minutes if it was lunch time yet. I got tireed of the interuptions and finally told him to quit asking and that I would let him konw when it was time to eat. I ended up at the other end of the building and forgot about him. Suddenly, at about 1:30, I remembered and went to find him and asked if he had eaten yet. NO? OK, it's lunch time then. He was fine with it, not even knowing any better. I learned to watch out for him on safety issues.There are jobs in construction that require just that amt of mental function. The problem comes when guys of that calibre think they are ready to run a crew...Which brings me to anopther storey...A girl hired on one winter to sweep floors etc and gopher the superintendent. She actuallycreated the job for herself. Had one of those husbands you spoke of and three kids to feed and her waitress job was slowing down.She had a great attitude and her eyes and ears open. She took on waiting on all the subs and co-ordinating for them, 'cause the super was an office type, lazy and hands off kind of guy. She got along with all the subs and we helped her learn the ropes. She answered phones and relayed messages without the suoper even being involved. He would have messed up things if he had.Long storey short - after six months, the company fired the super and offered her 50K annual salary to run the next job for them. She startedwith a broom and ended up sitting pretty
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A girl hired on one winter to sweep floors etc and gopher the superintendent. . . .the company fired the super and offered her 50K annual salary to run the next job for them.
He´ro
n.
a prominent or central personage in any remarkable action or event;
SamT
How is this my fault?
Miami, you asked...I have an answer...but first...some questions.
When you bring on a new hire, how well do you communicate your expectations? What are you offering in exchange for him to meet your expectations? Do you hire laborers, with the intentions of training them to become carpenters? Or do you hire pre-apprentices with the though of evaluating them to become carpenter apprentices?
Are your new hires getting a job, or a career?
How well do you screen? Do you do any testing? Do you have false expectations? Do you understand that different people learn in different ways, and if you are hiring inexperienced people, you will have to figure out how they learn, and deliver the information in the manner that they receive it best? Are you expecting new hires to learn at the rate you learn, or at the rate they learn?
I ask all these questions because I was awful at understanding all of this in my early years. I'm quite sure I caused more than a few to leave the trade simply because I was such a jacka**. Even now, I consciously have to take a deep breath sometimes and rethink my teaching strategy. More importantly I've learned that it was MY fault that I was not delivering the proper instructions to them.
With that understanding, I eventually realized, that in my earliest days, I was expecting everyone to be a clone of me, a clone of my mental process, and a clone of my ambition and motivation. I just assumed that everyone wanted to learn to run a crew and be everything to everyone. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
At some point in time, after I spent some time in the hospital exploring whether I had a heart attack or just a stress attack, I re-thunk my attitudes. After reading some great books on management, I realized that everyone is different, and each has unique talents and strengths. Not everyone is cut out to be a carpenter, or even a carpenter laborer. Its my job as manager to figure that out. If the laborer is the kind of person that simply wants to be a laborer, for the rest of his life, it's up to me the manager to recognize that and deal with it...either design the job to fit him, or let him go while explaining that his particular strengths are not a good fit for the crew.
I used to "evaluate" new hires for way, way too long. I now know that it's best to part company real fast if the new guy isn't a good fit. I don't mean that I don't give the guys a chance to get comfortable, but I do mean that as soon as I KNOW that the guys attitude is wrong, we part company. IF his attitude is right, I work real hard trying to figure out how to train him.
I'm the trainer...his failures are my fault!
blue
PS now...if I can just train some of you guys to leave that speed square gadget in the tool box.....
pps just kidding.Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Let me first say this; you mean to tell me that there are still people who don't use a speed square? Do they still use flint tools also? I am so sold on speed squares! Can't imagine going anywhere without one of mine!
As for your comments, i agree with most of them. I hire people who ask for a job. If they are willing to learn I tell them I will teach them anything they can want to know. My degree is in Education. I have had great success in this area. I had one labor who nearly always cut the wrong measurement. I told him to write down what I said and cut from a list...still wrong. Keep in mind this is a straight 90% cut on the dewalt mitersaw. I explained how the blade generally takes out about an 1/8th and to make sure he cut on the proper side of the mark...still wrong. now I am thinking maybe he's ADHD.So I say do you have any learning disabilities that you are aware of he says not to his knowledge. So I tell him to write down what I tell him. I call out a list of ten measurements that I have written down. We then compare lists ; not one number matched ( even though he called them out right before he wrote them down. Turns out he had a learning disability that he didn't even know about. He still works with me, we just work around his disability. So to make a long story short, I know what you mean about the way you used to be because I was the same way. These posts have me reevaluating what I'm doing. As I said earlier they are not intended to slam laborers.
The one thing I do not completely agree with is the idea that all fault is yours in the Training areas. Some people just don't get it no matter what you do...not your fault.
As for Mexican help ( other posts) it is an affront to generalize any people as lazy, good,etc. It is too simplistic and naive to subject a people ( any people) to a scrutiny based on a few.
If this were true all Moslems would be terrorists. All white Americans would be fat lazy capitalists. America is a melting pot of diversity. Opportunity is free for the taking to those who are willing to work for it. I just want to find and hire them! ; Miami
Miami, I'm pretty good at using flints...as long as their securely imbedded in by torch lighter.
I looked at my speed square today and wondered if I should pull it out of the giveaway box and try to learn how to use it. I thought about Joes tip on getting the pitch cut for a shed roof layon. Then I remembered my own method and put the tool back...
I accept the fact that I, the trainer, have to understand the limits that each apprentice has and limit his duties so that he can succeed.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
If you want an accurate cut, you should do it yourself. You can't expect an in-experienced laborer to be able to cut to exact tolerances, if any at all. Even two seasoned mechanics will see the same ruler differently.
Had a guy once who had 'tons' of experience as a cut man. We were installing cedar clapboard, I'm yelling down numbers and everything is coming up short or long. Finally go down and after a little questioning this guy doesn't understand fractions!!! OK , so I try to make the best of a situation for the day and draw out on a big piece of wood an inch with all the lines for 1/8's and 1/4's and try to explain it to him. He still is looking at me puzzled and really hasn't quite put it together. Then it dawns on me............ I ask him if he smokes weed. He says yeah and here we go. I ask him if he has a half ounce and sold somebody half of it what would he have left. Bam........out it comes 'you'd have a quarter ounce'. Then I ask ' if you had one ounce and had to make 2 bags how much is that ? BAM............ 'that' s 2 half ounces"!! It's unbelievable, this kid can divide , multiply and add bags of dope in seconds but cannot understand the workings of a fractional inch for the life of him. He lasted about another ten minutes. This is why I work alone now.
Ah man you guys need to lighten up. If you been shoveling rock, picking up trash, hauling lumber and toting tools from the truck a buzz at lunch makes the afternoon just a little more relaxing. Besides it's a mild stimulant.
Your talking about my other crop here. :)
Ahh, you're serious about allowing guys to smoke dope while on the job, or am I missing the sarcasm?
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Can a laborer be expected to put TJI hangers on properly, a line with an X. Well,he put the nailing flange edge on the line....with 16d hand-drives.Another goodie, window truck arrived so boss sent 2 'helpers'down to take the plastic off the windows.We'd be down to set them in awhile.They took all the poly off the window openings,almost needed ear-plugs for that one.
Looked out the window opening,seen our toter leaving in his truck.Asked everyone,what happened,where's he going? No one knew,11:00am. 11:55am back at job carrying a BurgerKing bag. We're just starting lunch and he sits/eats with us,so I ask. "I had to take a dump and don't like Porta-johns".
Well enjoy, you just got docked 2 hours and this is your last day!I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
Learn to speak fluent Spanish.
to all,
Most of you people don't know how lucky you are------your laborers appear to be rocket scientists next to the ones I seem to get.
My 2 favorite dumb laborers stories
#1)---- when I hire a new guy on the very first day I tell them" Watch how we unpack this truck this morning because one of your responsibilities each day is going to be packing it back up at the end of the day"----so we set up saw horses, spread out tarps, get out hoses, extension cords etc.---and start work. About 20 minutes from the end of the job I tell the worker to " Break down the horses and start packing up"
Instead of just folding up the horses---just like we UNFOLDED them in the morning---this genius had completely dismantled the horses and neatly reduced them to 3 piles---1 pile of lumber, 1 pile of brackets and 1 pile of carriage bolts, lag bolts, washers and wing nuts.----he had actually rummaged through my truck and got out a crescent wrench and pliers to dismantle the horses!!!!
#2) I am sure all of you have cut 3 tab shingles into ridge caps right?
Well I take the helper off to the side and I say-----here is a utility knife. I am gonna show you how to cut ridge caps'cause this is something you are going to do for me almost every day. I show the guy how ,with 6 quick cuts you can score the shingle and snap it into 3 perfect ridge caps with full width tabs and the top of the tabs back cut at an angle for perfect appearance.
I go up on the roof and a while later I call down for some ridge caps. when he brings 'em up he has used 8 cuts to back cut the TABS and seperate each shingle into 3 useless pieces of scrap-----he did the whole bundle that way.
also---why do helpers hear clear instructions like " go down and cut me up a bundle of ridge caps"-------and interpret that to mean " go down and sit under the shade tree and smoke a cigarette for 10 minutes so that when I call down for ridge caps there won't be ANY ready?"
Also---gotta simply love helpers that don't show up on Monday, show late on Tuesday, ask to leave early on Thursday-----and then complain when recieving their check on Friday that they " aren't getting enough hours"?
Stephen
Edited 12/3/2004 11:26 am ET by Stephen_Haz
"...also---why do helpers hear clear instructions like " go down and cut me up a bundle of ridge caps"-------and interpret that to mean " go down and sit under the shade tree and smoke a cigarette for 10 minutes so that when I call down for ridge caps there won't be ANY ready?"
And their response is, "Oh, you meant now? I thought you meant after I take a break."
We had one laborer once who was constantly in the crapper. I thought I'd tell him if he didn't leave that thing alone he might end up pulling it clean off.
But then I thought twice and just decided not to bring him back onto another job.
girlbuilder,
I tell 'em all------"we work together---anything I ask you to do I also do myself---or have done 1000 in the past. If the day ever comes that one of us is gonna be sitting in the shade watching the other one sweat like a pig up on the roof---it's gonna be ME sitting in the shade and YOU sweating---cause I pay the tab around here."
Now---in fairness to all the folks who wouldn't give you a chance back in the mid '80's--------------- I was looking for the same type of chance myself in the early and mid 80's.------but with the economy in he dumper here---there just weren't that many jobs available.
I don't offer anybody a "career"----I offer'em the exact same chance---a start---that I wanted 20 some years ago. I will teach 'em EVERYTHING I know-----from how to produce the product to how to market their services,I help 'em buy their first tools( I can't tell you the number of guys I have GIVEN their first tool belts,hammer,tape,chalkline,prybar,screw driver,pliers, utility knives etc.)------I have helped em set up bankaccounts, explained how a CHECK works!!!!!!!, helped them buy cars( against my advice)----bought em uniforms---you name it.
none of that really matters to these young guys----I am lucky if they last 3 months
somebody else mentioned that now adays it takes until about age 30 for these guys to reach the maturity level we would have at age 22----all in all I have to agree.
I can't tell you haw many of these young guys I see age 21--22 long hair, tattoos everywhere, body piercings, no driverlicense---if they have a license they are driving a $300 car----and they can only bother to show up for work about a day and a half out of the week---and then complain about the money!!!!! I look at them and think"what is wrong with you kid?----at your age I was married, owned my own house , 2 cars and an IRA-----on $4.50 an hour"
Stephen
We have the "doofus" hammer and belt for the laborers that come and go. If they know which end of the hammer to grab, we've made a point; if they can hit a nail on the head within a few swings, two points; if they can pull out a 16d nail without making the lumber look like they just chewed it out and taking 30 minutes to do it, point three...