So I’m wondering if you guys have any advice for me. I’m looking to learn more about the general construction/renovation trades. My work history in the past has been working as assistants for a few different contractors and cabinet makers. I relocated to Brooklyn a few years back and the majority of the guys I’ve worked for since then have had some pretty fly by night operations and I’m a little ashamed to say that the craftsmanship involved was a little shoddy. Working as an assistant or helper for a contractor I would like to be woking for reputable, knowledgeable people so I can build a strong background in a wide variety of skills. My most recent work has been as a scenic carpenter and while the money is pretty good the work is completely unsatisfying.
The bottom line is that I would like to make myself a better craftsman and I wonder what you guys would suggest. Apprenticeships seem to be in short supply in Manhattan but would a trade school be a waste of time? Even taking classes at a Community College? Everyone here seems to be chock full of good advice so I’m really looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say.
On a sort of related note if anyone in the NYC area is looking for help I’m in the market for a new job.
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Craftsmanship has been falling off the cart for years now; I would estimate that something like 2% of the people working in the business really care about the level of quality they deliver, and 98% really care about the level of profit they make.
Of course, everybody here on Breaktime is in that 2%....
Joking aside, I don't know what to recommend for you. You'll either have to learn on your own, as you go...or find a job with somebody in that small fraternity of craftsmen and stick with him. You can get a lot of good technical advice here if you want to go it alone; if you work at it and are careful, you can develop your skills while working as an indy remod guy without going bankrupt.
I guess it depends on your temperament which way would work better for you.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
In this area, local trade magazines often feature the work of the better remodeling contractors. Every fall, the builders' association puts on the Remodeler's Showcase where recently remodeled homes are open to the public. I always go and see several to meet the contractors and get a feel for their work. Perhaps there are opportunities like this in your area. Another thing you might try is to go to lumber yards and talk to the salesmen, asking who their regular customers are and who they like dealing with or who they would recommend. Once you have a few targets in mind, you can go speak with them to introduce yourself, learn more about the company and find out if they're hiring.
Years ago, I was in the same position - and in fact, in many ways, I'm still there. Because you never stop learning.
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What I did:
I worked for a variety of contractors in a variety of fields - even quitting good jobs that I liked, when I felt I was stagnating;
took classes at the community college (building code, trigonometry, furniture and cabinet making, even typing and introduction to computers);
read a lot - FHB, FWW, JLC, lots and lots of books;
ask questions of everyone you meet on a jobsite who's willing to talk - pick their brains about tools, methods, etc.;
hang around here and read on a variety of topics (and avoid the political and mudslinging threads, because they will take time and energy away from your focus);
also check out FHB's instructional videos on their website, and don't be afraid to buy a video of a subject you're serious about learning.
Like was said, a lot will depend on your temperament. But at some point you gotta get in there and do it, and be prepared to fight that learning curve. Craftsmanship is not an easy decision to follow through on, and there is a very real cost incurred in acquiring skills, both monetary (tools alone can be a sizeable investment) and physical/mental/emotional.
And its been my experience that there will probably be very little moral support along the way, as real craftsmanship is little understood or valued by the majority in our instant gratification, throw-away, celebrity-worshipping society.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
There are lots of different ways to go about it. Finding a good one to work for or with is one key. And always ask questions - why is that done that way, why is it not done this way, what other options are there? How can this be improved?
Beyond that all I can do is comment on some ways I learned.
One of my first carpentry jobs was working with a one man show to build a cabin. He was very good teacher ( of course he had a good student too, which makes a teacher's job more enjoyable) and he took time not only to show me what he wanted, but why he wanted it that way.
another major way I learned how to put things together was by taking them apart. I had a job for a few months with a demolition outfit, salvaging used building materials. and again doing remodel work and repairs, I always did post-mortems in my mind, asking myself why did this work and that didn't. observing the negative effects of certain methods vs the successful methods that lasted a lifetime taught me what works and what doesn't.
and keep your eyes open. Watch what a good craftsman is doing and how he does it.
When I had been roofing for about 6-8 months, the boss was the one who always did the chimney flashing. But I would watch how he did it out of the corner of my eye while running my shingles.
So one day, he had to be gone for a while just as he got ready to start the chimney. I finished my run of shingles and picked up the flashing to do.
The other guys on the crew were aghast and warned me not to mess with it, that he just didn't trust anyone else to handle those, but I winked and kept knocking tin.
When the boss came back, I was laying shingles again with the chimney all done. At first, he exploded and roared, "Who did this flashing?"
Then he started examining it and walking all around, checking the joints and lapps, scratching his chin and saying it was a darn good job, maybe better than he could do....
So keep your eyes open and watch to learn, instead of focusing like so many do, on last night's party or whatever.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Trevor,
You may need to look outside of the city. It has been a while since I have been in your neck of the woods but I know there are high quality companies working in Westchester County and nearby areas in Greenwich CT and the like.
Maybe Jerrald will chime in and could get you a few names. As others have mentioned, read alot a pay close attention to what other folks are doing. A mason who did all my father's foundation would remind when I was younger that "no one learns with their mouth, you learn with your eyes and your ears" (sounds really different with a heavy Italian accent).
Best of luck and keep looking.
Bruce
You're getting some good advice here from everyone. Personally, I'm about 80% self taught, learning much like what Piffin described; paying attention to how elements are built as you tear them out, reading anything credible I could get my hands on, even watching a couple of the remodeling shows on PBS in my early days. One challenge ahead of you is developing your eye. What seems like second nature now took years to acquire through many, many hours of work, more than a few mistakes, and some timely tips from experienced hands I might have been working with at the time pointing out numerous subtleties of details to my untrained eye.
Part of your challenge will be finding someone working on the caliber of work you want to do. Not all remodelers are created equal as you've already learned. I'm still learning and intend to until I finally keel over. And don't be afraid to make small leaps into the unknown. If you have most of the necessary skills to do something and can land the gig, take it on with the idea you might have to figure something out along the way. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial kitty and oftentimes in remodeling, one technique you used previously won't be exactly the same in another application. In other words, don't be afraid to think outside the box.
I'm currently designing/building a sign out of 6"x6" and 4"x6" though I've never built a sign before. I even did the sign face and trust me, I'm no artist. But it's turning out well and the owner is very pleased with what I'm doing for her. Some qualities I hope you have are patience (by the boatload), perseverance, and the necessary intellect to seek out information you may encounter a need for through whatever medium you have at your disposal. You're in for a long haul but to consider yourself a true craftsman, you'll spend the rest of your life growing into the position. Best wishes in your endeavor.
Find a job with someone who is already where you want to be or at least has the skills you want. They can show you ways of doing things in six monthsthat you could not figure out for yourself in ten years. Some of these guys will be good teachers; some will not. Some will consider themselves craftsmen; some will just be competent. You can learn from either if you are willing.
How do you find them? The same way that a homeowner finds a contractor to work with. Ask as many people as you can find who have experience with contractors. Suppliers, subcontractors like plumbers and electricians, your neighbors and friends. This might be a little tougher in Brooklyn than where I live but it is really the only way.
If you keep your eyes open as Piffin suggested, you will make your employer a great and willing teacher.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice. It's more or less the conclusion I've come to on my own over the last few months. With the economy being the way it is I think it would be in my own best interest in the long run to maybe take a more entry level position in a larger company that would allow me to learn from the ground up and advance in the company. I like the idea of doing work on my own also when the opportunity arises as well. I'm going to keep all this advice in the back of mind and try to learn from any situation I find myself in.
Reading the forums here has definitely helped alot and I will continue to do so.
Thanks again.
You might try to get in touch with this guy in Brooklyn
http://www.brooklynrowhouse.com/house
He's not running a company (believe he's a carpenter for set design among other things, though a tour through his work shows he's got the same high-mindedness that you bring to your work), but he might be able to give you a couple of leads and steer you in the direction you are looking for.
Hope that's helpful in some way.
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I ditto all that the others have said but will throw in something new.
At the risk of being laughed at, I suggest trying to talk to building inspectors. I have read a lot of bad things on this site about the BIs but in my experience, they have a lot of knowledge about what constitutes good work and don't mind sharing it.
They also get updates on new technologies and they are curious about how the cutting edge stuff would work in real life.
We are fortunate here to have two BIs who like to take the time to discuss good pratice. I'm currently building a new house for myself and they have been really supportive and have given me guidance or at least things to think about. Could be this is because we live in a relatively small town.
Anyway, this just another thought.
At the risk of being laughed at, I suggest trying to talk to building inspectors
hahahahahaha
(somebody had to be the first)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
No worries! I think the same myself sometimes, but I do have to stand beside the two BIs we have here right now. Great guys, good advice!
You got any idea what this guy's name is?
I had a guy thay worked for me years ago who's dad was in the set building business and he did a similar project. No sure which part of NY it was in.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image