Just looked at a large job. The HO wants to take out a stone wall. Its going to need a steel beam or 2. Wall to be removed is about 15′ with a window and a door opening at the moment. They want one big opening.
Stone wall is about 16″ thick and has a second story above with the roof on top of that.
Any one tried this kind of job and rough time taken?
Replies
You mean after the four months for engineering and permit?
;)
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BTW, You might have noticed that I didn't answer your question.
That is because I don't think there is any way to give a meaningfull answer given the meager info provided. Size and experience of your crew are large factors. Setting and access at the site also. Then there is adjacent scope of work. This will not happen without disrupting all other systems of the house.
Yes I have done similar. This could be a three week job or it could take half a year.
I am guessing you are asking less for cost estimate purposes and more for how long the family needs to plan to be living in other quarters.
Have them figure the later.
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Hi Piffin
I'll get some photos today and post them. Won't help much cause its all in deep where the beam is going. I'm just trying to get a rough idea together.
Personally I think it's a little over the top to do this. But if they want to spend the money, that I can help with!
There are some walls that were meant to be an integral, defining part of a structure, for the life of that structure. This sounds like one such wall.
I've seen quite a few older homes in NJ built with one or two rock walls like the one you've described. River rocks is what we call them, big round ones that were formed by rolling around for millenia under a glacier and at the bottom of river beds. They are often mined from sand banks, then split for face stone.
They have a lot of history and character in them. Some people appreciate that and want them to be part of their lives, in a functional way. If the people who now own the house don't feel that way, maybe it's time for them to sell the place and build something which suits them.
Out of respect for the original intention and those who carried it out, I wouldn't touch that wall.
The big unknown in my mind would be the engineering requirments for the steel and what he'd require for sheer.
It might be something easy like a Simpson Strongtie moment frame: http://www.strongtie.com/products/strongframe/index.asp?source=hpnav
That sounds easy enough, but then there are the footers, a temp wall and others to support the second story, weather protection, blaw, blaw, blaw.
Perhaps it makes more sense to reinforce a nearby wall in the same plane for the sheer. Might be as easy as expoxy set rods, a few sheer brackets and some plywood on an interior wall. Might be a nightmare.
I'd suggest to the client that an engineer be hired to look at the project to provide guidance and direction up front, and the calculations and specification if it's decided to go forward. Let him know what your capabilities are and he can probably give you some names if you need help with the steel.
While you have him on the clock, you can offload some additional risk by having him design the temp support, or at least approve what you came up with.
This could be an easy job or a terribly complicated one, but the width isn't that much so I'm leaning towards easy.
To support the overhead floor joists I like a temp wall 3-4 feet on the inside with a decent load path to something solid, which also keeps dust out of the house. And on the outside I would probably strip the siding from the rim joist area and use structurally rated screws such as timberlocks to attach a fairly wide LVL to the rim and bottom of the second floor studs. Strip back the interior sheetrock and put double sheer hangers on the floor joists to help hold things in place. Then 4x4 posts can be leaned into the lvl (attached with upside down 4x4 hangers) and shimmed tight to support the upper floor.
If the beam to support the second floor is to be burried in the ceiling it is much harder to support things, but the method of screwing lvls to joists and studs has always worked well for me. Think of it as a ledger in reverse. Instead of the ledger being supported by the wall, the wall is supported by the ledger. Beef up the connections and use a much wider ledger since the load in reverse is much greater. Wide lvls are great because you can use more screws. I'd take a single wide lvl over two smaller ones if rated for the same weight.
You can also double or tripple up the temp lvl that's screwed to a wall and use posts on the ends for support.
You'll find the slightly smaller diameter of the timberloc screws vs 1/4" simpson screws will be less likely to split dry studs and rims and the screws are not as brittle as simpson's. The time saved by not having to predrill is huge.
I have seen another contractor install what appeared to be a 1-3/4"x 24" lvl in place of a second story rim joist, with the floor joists being hangered onto it, and the studs above being knotched around the 12" or so of the lvl that extended above the floor. It was done with the original wall in place so the floor joists were well supported during the surgery. I can't remember if the studs were stacked over the floor joists or if additional blocking was screwed to the lvl to support the inside half of the studs where half the bottom plate was cut away.
For cutting existing framing for such a thing I like the long 12" milwaki sawzal blades and a tight (newer) sawzal. The blades bend in a way that makes straight cuts possible with the sawzal pointed into the wall. Shim any verticle gaps in the studs tight to the lvl.
When I think of this kind of project, supporting the house well enough to prevent drywall cracks and whatnot is my primary concern.
What's going inside this one big opening? Open air? Windows?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I've seen it in older commercial buildings (victorian era brick/stone) -
don't know how they did it - 24" I beam setting on 6" pipe with two stories of limestone wall setting on it - -
good luck - post picts and get that engineer on board -
heres the pics
the beam is to go at the stone level from the outside and over the window and door as seen from the inside.
15' ain't nothing.
setting the beam is usually the quickest part of the job.
first step is the call the PE. Mine and permitting is way quicker than Pif's.
helps to have a game plan for the walk thru with the PE.
mine is open to suggestions.
sometimes one hunk of steel is easier than a coupla lighter sticks of wood.
aligning the layers takes time if U have to set individually then bolt together "up there".
everything depends on the access ... how ya getting that big hunk of whatever into the space ... then up where it goes.
other sometimes hard part is ridigify'ing the load path ... once had to cut open the kitchen floor, and use a cardboard chute to fill and tamp the block foundation / basement walls ... that didn't go quick ... mix, kneal, dump, tamp, mix, kneal , dump, tap, etc ... for about a day.
also ... might need an electrician, plumber and or HVAC guy to reroute what ever's in the way.
15ft ... I'd plan on one Genie Lift in the middle, if possible. One model lifts up to 800lbs.
my usual hoped for plan ... carry it in ... set on the heavy duty saw horses ... cause it's easier to set / lift from horse height.
roll the lift over the ply ... center it ... crank into place ... slide in / up on what ever temp supports I've built. Slide into permanant place ... nail off all the extra braces so it can't move.
rest ... count fingers ... then shove and shim into final resting place.
beams can take from 2 days to 2 weeks.
I figure the "average" cost to be $6K.
nice to have at least 4 guys for "beam lift day".
and as I tell my help and customers ... I never allow swearing on my job sites
except for beam day.
and on beam day ... not only is swearing allowed ...
it's encouraged!
don't let the beam know yer scared.
and the best part ... "load transfer" sounds.
a little moan and/or creak is good ...
sharp, loud snaps and cracks are bad!
it all starts with a good PE.
Jeff
edit to say ... don't forget to temp support the existing first!
and ... yer gonna need a stone mason.
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 9/8/2008 9:10 pm ET by JeffBuck